ditchman Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 firstly ...if the mods see this thread going stupid political ...and trolling please close it down........ I like a lot of folk are watching whats going on in Ukraine..............im no arm chair general....but can someone in the know tell me WHY TANKS ARE SO IMPORTANT IN THE UKRAINE WAR i say this because it has been shown that a couple of semi trained oikes with a hand held missile can destroy a tank at distance...(this has been shown throughout the conflict to date) the oikes are far more mobile........very difficult to spot.......very difficult to find.....and very difficult to take out.....they "shoot and scoot".....nip off for a bit of scran pick up another missile and off they go and bag another tank before lunch....... these big battle tanks are horrifically expensive........twitchy.....unreliable.....leave deep tracks everywhere for drones to spot......fairly easy to find....infa-red and the like...............too my untrained eye they are no more than a very very expensive unreliable.... maintenance heavy mobile gun........... QUESTION.......................why oh why is the west "et al"......so in love with "the tank"...... answers on a postcard.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 Semi trained oiks can destroy tanks that are not being properly deployed with infantry support. And whilst four or five semi trained oiks might carry two or three anti-tank launcher systems and actual tank can carry maybe forty or fifty rounds of anti-tank ammunition and several thousand rounds for its machine gun. Plus it moves at 20mph! Semi trained oiks regardless of what they are armed with will not have a happy day if attacked by tanks used properly with accompanying supporting infantry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, enfieldspares said: Semi trained oiks can destroy tanks that are not being properly deployed with infantry support. And whilst four or five semi trained oiks might carry two or three anti-tank launcher systems and actual tank can carry maybe forty or fifty rounds of anti-tank ammunition and several thousand rounds for its machine gun. Plus it moves at 20mph! Semi trained oiks regardless of what they are armed with will not have a happy day if attacked by tanks used properly with accompanying supporting infantry. i see what you are getting at............i have highlighted part of your answer........this is something the Russians are not doing......how do you find committed well trained troops to provide close protection for their battle tanks................the russian troops on the ground are there because theyhave been told to go and die for their country...and by the way in return for dieing we will give you carp food ....poor support....wrong equipment... wheras the Ukraines are there to protect their country and are keen to learn ...better educated...and motivated i still think tanks are a waste of time ....and if anything "a military fashion accessory"....a must have for the "kick ****" general...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redial Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 I had the same thought ditchman. Life expectancy wouldn’t be too long, when a drone can place a bomb on the driver’s lap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 Tanks haven't yet maybe had their day. It's just that the pendulum has swung more to the advantage of the the anti-tank rather than the tank. But just as in WWII it will likely swing back the other way. Meantime the best anti-tank weapon is still, usually, another tank. But certainly the Russians are making fundamental errors in their use and, of course, laagered tanks are very vulnerable as are static tanks even if behind earthen berms as Saddam found out in Gulf War 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 Horses for courses. As stated above they have a niche in which they are most effective. Same as larger warships v smaller warships, we were part of a NATO group (STANAFORLANT) working with multiple warships in the Norwegian fjords and were regularly attacked and probably disabled or destroyed by fast torpedo boats suddenly appearing out of an inlet and disappearing just as fast. Out on the open sea they would have been toast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 all valid points.....interesting.................i would love to hear Zelensky's reasoning behind his desperation for dynasoric tanks........... i would be much happier with a 1000 hand held missiles ....some 4 wheel drive cars and a wheelbarrow to push the missiles about and well fed warm troops/oikes.....wearing Baush&lomb sunglasses ..fag hanging out of their mouth...shouldering a missile....listening to their i-pods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weihrauch17 Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 17 minutes ago, ditchman said: all valid points.....interesting.................i would love to hear Zelensky's reasoning behind his desperation for dynasoric tanks........... i would be much happier with a 1000 hand held missiles ....some 4 wheel drive cars and a wheelbarrow to push the missiles about and well fed warm troops/oikes.....wearing Baush&lomb sunglasses ..fag hanging out of their mouth...shouldering a missile....listening to their i-pods Zelensky wants NATO involved and asking for tanks could provoke a reaction from Russia to cause that to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetree Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Weihrauch17 said: Zelensky wants NATO involved and asking for tanks could provoke a reaction from Russia to cause that to happen. This. Its a wholly unnecessary escalation that we should all be concerned about, that was not debated in parliament. The tank addition will either work so well that Putin will have to escalate his response or these tanks will take losses that will leave the big NATO layers scrambling to save face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 There is also the power of the idea. Putin and his cronies now need a plan to stop tanks, but will they use them straight away, or artillery first to soften up? Where will they come from, can we get enough missiles or landmines into the attack zone? I'm no strategist, certainly not on land but we used the same in the Falklands by shelling the Argentinian emplacements regularly pre invasion to keep them guessing when and where the attack would happen and it also gave us an idea of their air capability as they came for us shortly after. One of our attacks... Their response... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1066 Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 So was their air capability totally under estimated or did the Navy estimate so many ships would be damaged and sunk including killed and badly burnt military personnel. Just an honest question as I enjoy reading about war and battle history. But would be good to have an insight from someone who was there and part of it, I have only ever had the chance to discuss the Falklands with ex Royal Welsh lads. regards Just now, steve1066 said: So was their air capability totally under estimated or did the Navy estimate so many ships would be damaged and sunk including killed and badly burnt military personnel. Just an honest question as I enjoy reading about war and battle history. But would be good to have an insight from someone who was there and part of it, I have only ever had the chance to discuss the Falklands with ex Royal Welsh lads. regards Apologies what is the third image, can’t quite make it out. thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) Just looking at these new 900 mile bayrakatar drones. No wonder the kremlin has new air defences in Moscow. Edited January 25, 2023 by oowee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 some interesting replies............and thank you for not getting political ..........i do wonder sometimes at if "the sides are over thinking" the conflict............it seems very much a case of "older men make wars and young people die in them "....and alot of this is knee jerk reaction stratergy.... 1 hour ago, henry d said: Horses for courses. As stated above they have a niche in which they are most effective. Same as larger warships v smaller warships, we were part of a NATO group (STANAFORLANT) working with multiple warships in the Norwegian fjords and were regularly attacked and probably disabled or destroyed by fast torpedo boats suddenly appearing out of an inlet and disappearing just as fast. Out on the open sea they would have been toast. interesting and quite right............Ukraine is mostly flat ...and in ww2 would have been ideal tank battle terrotory....but in 2023 is fatal.....now it is more of an ambush war... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 53 minutes ago, steve1066 said: So was their air capability totally under estimated Yes. We thought it would be like their army and navy but as you can see in the middle picture the pilots were totally focused on taking us out and bravely pressed on their attack even though they had lost pilots who crashed into the sea due to either hitting a wave or not being able to see because of spray from the waves or gunfire and then crashing. Third image is the exit hole of the 1000lb bomb that, thankfully, didn't explode in the after engine room of HMS Glasgow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 If you are going to advance against an enemy you need armour, there are tanks and then there ae tanks, russian tanks are mostly old, badly armoured and as seen very vulnerable to the west anti tank devices. The leopard is an advance by many stages over anything the russians have and will not be so easy to destroy, and the challenger 2 is as advanced as it gets in the world of tanks with lots of tricks up it's sleeve to protect itself. If i was a russian anti tank team up against challenger and leopard tanks i would make sure my will had been written. Taken from wiki, i don't know about the 70 rpg claim but Chobham armour is good stuff. "During the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Challenger 2 tanks suffered no tank losses to Iraqi fire. In one encounter within an urban area, a Challenger 2 came under attack from irregular forces with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades. The driver's sight was damaged and while attempting to back away under the commander's directions, the other sights were damaged and the tank threw its tracks entering a ditch. It was hit by 14 rocket propelled grenades from close range and a MILAN anti-tank missile.[44] The crew survived, safe within the tank until it was recovered for repairs, the worst damage being to the sighting system. It was back in operation six hours later. According to British army, one Challenger 2 operating near Basra survived being hit by 70 RPGs in another incident.[45]" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, welsh1 said: If you are going to advance against an enemy you need armour, there are tanks and then there ae tanks, russian tanks are mostly old, badly armoured and as seen very vulnerable to the west anti tank devices. The leopard is an advance by many stages over anything the russians have and will not be so easy to destroy, and the challenger 2 is as advanced as it gets in the world of tanks with lots of tricks up it's sleeve to protect itself. If i was a russian anti tank team up against challenger and leopard tanks i would make sure my will had been written. Taken from wiki, i don't know about the 70 rpg claim but Chobham armour is good stuff. "During the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Challenger 2 tanks suffered no tank losses to Iraqi fire. In one encounter within an urban area, a Challenger 2 came under attack from irregular forces with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades. The driver's sight was damaged and while attempting to back away under the commander's directions, the other sights were damaged and the tank threw its tracks entering a ditch. It was hit by 14 rocket propelled grenades from close range and a MILAN anti-tank missile.[44] The crew survived, safe within the tank until it was recovered for repairs, the worst damage being to the sighting system. It was back in operation six hours later. According to British army, one Challenger 2 operating near Basra survived being hit by 70 RPGs in another incident.[45]" These things are something else. How are they likely to stand up against anti tank mines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said: Zelensky wants NATO involved and asking for tanks could provoke a reaction from Russia to cause that to happen. Hello, I have a feeling he has wanted that for some time, 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 i understand what you are saying.............but im not truly convinced..........just heard USA is to supply 50 Abrahams ASAP and training crews....they run on Av-gas dont they ?... the tank is supposed to be a mobile fighting machine...like what Montgomery did in the western desert and in russia during the ww2.........things have changed now....80 years ago Ukraine would have been excellent tank terrortory....it is flat...........but now-a-days...that is fatal now with the advent of drones ..(survellince and offensive) guided and AI weaponary (fire and forget stuff).......... i think the tank needs to be used in a totally different way now for it to survive........... it is very easy for us to pontificate on tatics and stratergy.....but it will be very interesting to see from the safety of our arm chairs how these machines will be used what was a real game changer during the battle of design and armour and tatics during the ww2 was the advent of the M18 Hellcat 60MPH ...it was a little bit undergunned and a lack of armour......but you could see where tatics were going ...."shoot and scoot" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 42 minutes ago, oowee said: These things are something else. How are they likely to stand up against anti tank mines? As a Sapper i will tell you anti tank mine meets tank = tank loses, i remember showing tankies a bar mine on an explosives demonstration day, they were laughing and joking as they were led to believe they were virtually invincible, then we took a mk7 antitank mine placed it under a wrecked car under the engine, their faces when they watched the car engine lauch into space as the mk7 was detonated was priceless, then we told them that the barmine was even deadlier. But that is why tanks operate as a unit with infantry support, and out in front of them all will be the Sappers clearing routes, laying bridges, breaching minefields.Everyone has a job and everyone needs the support of the other to operate. Tnak commanders are always going to assess any pinch point or obstruction, they know their vulnabilities.and you have nowhere to hide with challenger on the field, i have seen their systems watching two bunnies making baby bunnies hundreds of yds away with thermal imaging,a couple of infantry bods are going to stand out like a sore thumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 7 hours ago, ditchman said: I like a lot of folk are watching whats going on in Ukraine..............im no arm chair general....but can someone in the know tell me WHY TANKS ARE SO IMPORTANT IN THE UKRAINE WAR QUESTION.......................why oh why is the west "et al"......so in love with "the tank"...... answers on a postcard.. We are NOT in love with Main Battle Tanks, the UK is planning to mothball most of ours so lets give a few away. They are dinosaurs these days, just mobile pill boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1066 Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 5 hours ago, henry d said: Yes. We thought it would be like their army and navy but as you can see in the middle picture the pilots were totally focused on taking us out and bravely pressed on their attack even though they had lost pilots who crashed into the sea due to either hitting a wave or not being able to see because of spray from the waves or gunfire and then crashing. Third image is the exit hole of the 1000lb bomb that, thankfully, didn't explode in the after engine room of HMS Glasgow. Thanks Henry d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 IF ,and its a big IF, the crew can use the on board weapon systems to their full potential the mordern battle tank can be a formidable weapon against infantry and obsolete Russian kit. They are giving them the tank's but it's not clear what systems they will be getting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 The Ukranians got the Russian tanks with cheap drones dropping ordnance and those that left the hatches open were the lowest hanging fruit. I assume that these expensive tanks will come with modern jamming tech of some sort - the embargoes of a decade ago have really hit the Russians in terms of tech and comms. Just think how your mobile phone has changed in the last decade. There’s a lot now being glued to these tank deliveries and they will be a prime PR target. I’m wondering if the Ukranians haven’t got a bigger plan and perhaps a thousand cardboard cut out tanks up their sleeves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 Russia will be very worried about challenger and abrams, they saw in the first gulf war how russian armour was decimated by them, and now there is leopard as well, russia has nothing close, expect lots of shouting from putin and his cronies and threats of nuclear war if the west continues to supply ukraine, this will have them very worried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39TDS Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 Incredible pictures @henry d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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