Conor O'Gorman Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 BASC statement: https://basc.org.uk/basc-statement-on-iopc-report-into-keyham-shootings/ Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) report: https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/recommendations-strengthen-firearms-licensing-controls-made-following-iopc-investigation-keyham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 This:The IOPC recommends that legislation and national guidance are amended to remove any distinction between the processes and requirements in relation to shotgun and firearms certificate holders. In effect this will mean the end of the Shotgun Certificate and all shotguns moving to s1, I guess is what they want, rather than other way about with rifled arms and multi-shot shotguns moving to s2? Will this mean a requirement for cartridges to be entered on the certificate when purchased then kept in a locked cabinet as per s1 ammunition, and the need for the loan of a shotgun to fully comply with the "estate rifle" law especially "in the presence of" and with that also an end to the seventy-two hour rules as they presently apply regarding s2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pushandpull Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 Fifty odd years ago when we still had ten bob licences from the post office the notorious green paper came out. After a lot of opposition it was shelved, but every so often it is taken down, dusted off, and a bit more of it enacted. This will be the next step. And to what end ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 27 minutes ago, Pushandpull said: Fifty odd years ago when we still had ten bob licences from the post office the notorious green paper came out. After a lot of opposition it was shelved, but every so often it is taken down, dusted off, and a bit more of it enacted. This will be the next step. And to what end ? I remember the James Burke programme on TV about The Green Paper, he was walking around the studio with a revolver in his hand. Funny how some things stick in your mind🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 and will all this stop shootings,buy this knee jerk,i dont think so but they know best, not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 And if everything became s1 would that mean named land if you wanted it for live quarry use, or membership of a named club for clays, or what? Land inspections for "named land" tl prove it "was suitable" and/or letters confirming you'd booked shooting or were a member of X or Y syndicate if you were not the owner or occupier of land? A return with land to the old Condition 1, Condition 2 or Condition 3 of FACs? It's a a real ship of fools if the Tories (yes those Tories "the friends of shooting") agree to this. 4 hours ago, BlaserF3 said: I remember the James Burke programme on TV about The Green Paper, he was walking around the studio with a revolver in his hand. Funny how some things stick in your mind🙄 Ah yes. And the bit where he spoke about smoothbored ex-Enfield rifles. Showing a .410" rifled slug and saying that if the rifling was removed from the barrel it achieved nothing as "all people needed to do was put the rifling on the bullet" to regain the same capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 And a variation every time you wanted to change your shotgun at a cost and a time span that is not stipulated good reason for each shotgun/caliber and I’m not sure if it’s legal to shoot game birds with a section 1 firearm all because someone didn’t do there job properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 54 minutes ago, enfieldspares said: And if everything became s1 would that mean named land if you wanted it for live quarry use, or membership of a named club for clays, or what? Land inspections for "named land" tl prove it "was suitable" and/or letters confirming you'd booked shooting or were a member of X or Y syndicate if you were not the owner or occupier of land? A return with land to the old Condition 1, Condition 2 or Condition 3 of FACs? It's a a real ship of fools if the Tories (yes those Tories "the friends of shooting") agree to this. Ah yes. And the bit where he spoke about smoothbored ex-Enfield rifles. Showing a .410" rifled slug and saying that if the rifling was removed from the barrel it achieved nothing as "all people needed to do was put the rifling on the bullet" to regain the same capability. What a memory you have!😲 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manthing Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 Surely the IOPC should be getting the police to stop giving guns back to people that shouldn't have them. Not making the FEO's job even more complicated when they can't keep up with demand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 Sounds very like our system here.... Just Reason for all firearms held...no doubling up without a very good reason All ammo entered on cert All variations treated as complete new application ie all checks repeated ..... Cant buy powder without a form stating from where what it is, amount etc..... We cant even have an air rifle without full application......lol No 72hrs You all dont realize even if its tweaked slightly just how good you may still have it.....lol Fight it all the way...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanMc Posted February 23, 2023 Report Share Posted February 23, 2023 8 hours ago, millrace said: Sounds very like our system here.... Just Reason for all firearms held...no doubling up without a very good reason All ammo entered on cert All variations treated as complete new application ie all checks repeated ..... Cant buy powder without a form stating from where what it is, amount etc..... We cant even have an air rifle without full application......lol No 72hrs You all dont realize even if its tweaked slightly just how good you may still have it.....lol Fight it all the way...... Exactly... It kind of works here, but tedious and slow. The bold section above isn't correct, you can have whatever you want as long as its on the cert. The easiest and least complicated is the application for powder/primers, at least the Explosives Officer in my area, extremely helpful and quick, even sends the paperwork directly to he shop where I'll be purchasing components. All down to the 'troubles' legacy here, but we can still have handguns, albeit tightly controlled, club use etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 23, 2023 Report Share Posted February 23, 2023 9 hours ago, millrace said: Sounds very like our system here.... Just Reason for all firearms held...no doubling up without a very good reason All ammo entered on cert All variations treated as complete new application ie all checks repeated ..... Cant buy powder without a form stating from where what it is, amount etc..... We cant even have an air rifle without full application......lol No 72hrs You all dont realize even if its tweaked slightly just how good you may still have it.....lol Fight it all the way...... however please correct me if wrong, you can buy and sell without a variation within calibre bands. you can have pistols Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted February 23, 2023 Report Share Posted February 23, 2023 You can change within a band but to add is a variation..... 5 hours ago, RyanMc said: you can have whatever you want as long as its on the cert. Nope....you will not get 2 cf just to have dedicated nite vision....you will get pulled if you just have multiple clay pigeon/ vermin on shotgun Its all about just reason now for what you want..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanMc Posted February 23, 2023 Report Share Posted February 23, 2023 There is a banded system grouped by power/calibre. 19 minutes ago, millrace said: You can change within a band but to add is a variation..... Nope....you will not get 2 cf just to have dedicated nite vision....you will get pulled if you just have multiple clay pigeon/ vermin on shotgun Its all about just reason now for what you want..... You are correct - I misinterpreted the below but on re-reading - forces the holder to purchase the same calibre but different action/make etc. via variation then. But you can hold x2 .223 for example. The replacement rifle being taken onto the certificate must not be the same calibre as a rifle already held on that FAC.The banded exchange system can only be used for rifles which are conditioned for quarry use or dual conditioned for quarry and target use. It cannot be used for rifles solely conditioned for target use. It isn't the biggest deal in the world BUT, if you had the choice or ability to do away with some of the regulation then it certainly would be nicer to have the freedom to chop/change easier and at less cost regarding variation. All back to a proper Policing system that actually works, not just punishes 99.999% of Firearms owners because nobody wants to do the heavy lifting to get a decent system in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 23, 2023 Report Share Posted February 23, 2023 (edited) Forgive my ignorance - I've got a few 12 bores, so I'd be intrested in first hand knowledge of how it works in Northern Ireland. Excluding a few that I could get rid of if needed, I'd be left with two fine 2 1/2" / 28" English / Scottish side by sides, a pair of 2 3/4" / 26" AYA no2's and a 3 1/2" / 30" Browning wildfowling gun. How rigid is it in practice? Could, for instance, the English / Scottish guns be justified under a genuine historical intrest, the AYA's for game shooting, and the Browning for wildfowling? Or would I be lucky to get away with a my AYA's for game shooting and the Browning for wildfowling? Edited February 23, 2023 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted February 23, 2023 Report Share Posted February 23, 2023 Examples.... Aya game Aya steel proof Aya semi auto wildfowling steel proof Aya 20b clay pigeon Aya over under pest vermin Now you run out of reason,just cause and they start to pressure to reduce .....no reason no need.... Rifles... 243 deer .2 cf any type vermin 22 lr vermin Again now what reason for more.... you will not get 2 same just cause you want nv and daytime use..... Hope this helps.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 23, 2023 Report Share Posted February 23, 2023 7 minutes ago, millrace said: Examples.... Aya game Aya steel proof Aya semi auto wildfowling steel proof Aya 20b clay pigeon Aya over under pest vermin Now you run out of reason,just cause and they start to pressure to reduce .....no reason no need.... Rifles... 243 deer .2 cf any type vermin 22 lr vermin Again now what reason for more.... you will not get 2 same just cause you want nv and daytime use..... Hope this helps.... Cheers - yes, very helpful 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serrac Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) These proposals might have unintended consequences. I hold a shotgun cert today because I reasoned if I've got to jump through Krankie's hoops to own an air rifle I might as well double up and apply for a shotgun cert as well. If I now have to get a S1 for my shotgun it just makes sense to have a look at what else I can try to get on the firearms cert. So the end result might be fewer shotguns, but more of the other S1 goodies in circulation - probably not what they're hoping for. Edited February 28, 2023 by serrac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger687 Posted March 5, 2023 Report Share Posted March 5, 2023 On 22/02/2023 at 10:15, Conor O'Gorman said: BASC statement: https://basc.org.uk/basc-statement-on-iopc-report-into-keyham-shootings/ Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) report: https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/recommendations-strengthen-firearms-licensing-controls-made-following-iopc-investigation-keyham Hello Conor I note that the BASC article states that they/you would be having discussions with the government in the coming weeks. Has this meeting occurred yet, and if so, could you provide some information as to its outcome? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob85 Posted March 5, 2023 Report Share Posted March 5, 2023 On 23/02/2023 at 14:38, millrace said: Examples.... Aya game Aya steel proof Aya semi auto wildfowling steel proof Aya 20b clay pigeon Aya over under pest vermin Now you run out of reason,just cause and they start to pressure to reduce .....no reason no need.... Rifles... 243 deer .2 cf any type vermin 22 lr vermin Again now what reason for more.... you will not get 2 same just cause you want nv and daytime use..... Hope this helps.... I'm a little late to the party on this one but regarding the reasoning, I came across this when I added a 3rd 12bore...the 2nd o/u. It was my father in laws gun and he had his licence revoked due to a doctor changing the wording of his DLA when it changed to PIPs. I spoke to my FEO and explained that it was sentimental to the family and they basically said "make up a reason for having it" which i duly did but when my licence arrived all 3 shotguns come up with the exact same reasoning for owning them. A lot depends on individuals in the branch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger687 Posted March 7, 2023 Report Share Posted March 7, 2023 @Conor O'Gorman So any news then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted March 8, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 11 hours ago, Smudger687 said: @Conor O'Gorman So any news then? We’re still waiting for Ministers to respond. Meanwhile we’ve briefed pro-shooting MPs who are speaking privately to Ministers, we’ve briefed the 150 members of the All Party Group for Shooting and Conservation and asked them to write or speak to the Minister - who will be attending to discuss the issue with MPs at the next meeting of the group later this month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger687 Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 8 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: We’re still waiting for Ministers to respond. Meanwhile we’ve briefed pro-shooting MPs who are speaking privately to Ministers, we’ve briefed the 150 members of the All Party Group for Shooting and Conservation and asked them to write or speak to the Minister - who will be attending to discuss the issue with MPs at the next meeting of the group later this month. Grand, thanks Conor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 On 22/02/2023 at 18:24, enfieldspares said: And if everything became s1 would that mean named land if you wanted it for live quarry use, or membership of a named club for clays, or what? To be honest I have heard stories of people being asked for all of these things for a long time. My neighbour was asked to produce mbership of his clay club a good ten years ago now. These things get enacted by stealth, gradually moving the goal posts a tiny bit at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 I know that when I had a s1 shotgun (a Browning A-5 in 16 bore) I had to have "named land" and "good reason" which was easy enough as at the time I had my own pond and needed to shoot flocking seagulls. But this was back just after the Tory 1988 Firearms Act when multi-shot shotguns went to s1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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