Rishi Sunak a star is born

[scouser]

10 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

My idea is for the whole of the UK to leave the EU entirely as per the Brexit vote. If the EU want a border let them put one up.

+1

[Lloyd90]

2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

 

We are not the ones that have an issue.

 

But we clearly are, we are the ones that decided to leave, therefore we need to note how issues that naturally arise from that decision should be resolved. 

2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

We have had free movement of people with Ireland, long before either of us were in the EU.

Yes, but that wasn’t just “the done thing”, there was a proper legislative agreement agreed by both sides with how that would work. 
 

Also if that was before either of us were members of the EU then it’s irrelevant. 
ROI remains an EU member whilst we have chosen to leave, so obviously the situation is different now. 
 

The base facts have changed. 

[Lloyd90]

38 minutes ago, janner said:

I dont give a damn about business,red lanes, green lanes etc, brexit wasnt about what was best for business, it was about freedom,

Wether a citizen of all countries concerned in this ballsup have the same or equal rights and freedoms  is what matters to me,

 

What freedoms have we gained since leaving the EU? 
 

We continue to have issues protecting our boarders from illegal entry, we continue to have issues with terrorists appealing our Governments decisions to deport them, we continue to have issues with illegal migrants court cases stopping them from being moved to a different country whilst undergoing review, we continue to have issues with French fishing boats in our coastal waters etc. 

 

You’ll have to forgive me if I have missed the sudden influx of Freedom we received 🤷‍♂️

[Walker570]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

😁 👍. We know where we are we just need to find a route out of here. I don't care who does it. 

Spot on. Which ever bunch of the present lot get in then we are doomed and at my age I just get up every morning check the weather and go enjoy myself...hope you do too.

[Lloyd90]

5 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Spot on. Which ever bunch of the present lot get in then we are doomed and at my age I just get up every morning check the weather and go enjoy myself...hope you do too.

He doesn’t even have to get out of bed to check the weather on the boat 🤪

[johnphilip]

54 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

What freedoms have we gained since leaving the EU? 
 

We continue to have issues protecting our boarders from illegal entry, we continue to have issues with terrorists appealing our Governments decisions to deport them, we continue to have issues with illegal migrants court cases stopping them from being moved to a different country whilst undergoing review, we continue to have issues with French fishing boats in our coastal waters etc. 

 

You’ll have to forgive me if I have missed the sudden influx of Freedom we received 🤷‍♂️

Some of those  issue  have nothing  to do with the EU , but to do with  Been sorted  out in this  country . This country has lost  its backbone  . To many  making  money  from these  dealings , and " do gooders "  

[Lloyd90]

9 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

Some of those  issue  have nothing  to do with the EU , but to do with  Been sorted  out in this  country . This country has lost  its backbone  . To many  making  money  from these  dealings , and " do gooders "  

Again, the promises and claims made by Johnson et Al, were that once out of the EU we would easily resolve these issues. 
 

Claimed it was the EU and their courts holding us back. 
 

“Take back control” was the slogan wasn't it? 
 

The fact that you have stated many of those issues have proven to be nothing to do with the EU just proves the point that there were lots of lies peddled. 
 

What was it that we took back control of? 

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, Bruno24 said:

Southern Ireland without checks but have not heard a thing about the other way around, does this not matter or is there no need?

You presumably were happy with CE marked products from the EU and elsewhere prior to Brexit?

 

6 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

The fact that you have stated many of those issues have proven to be nothing to do with the EU just proves the point that there were lots of lies peddled. 

Good grief, are you being deliberately obtuse?

The fact that we had an imcompetent, botched, undermined-at-every-opportunity-by-a-hardcore-remain-civil-service Brexit is not somehow the fault of Brexit as a concept.  Nobody voted for a poorly-delivered Brexit.  Certain organisations ensured that's what we got, however, even to the point of self-harm.

 

11 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

What was it that we took back control of? 

Not this one again: The ability to determine our own legislative priorities and implement them as we see fit, by people we can hold accountable at the ballot box.

[johnphilip]

11 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You presumably were happy with CE marked products from the EU and elsewhere prior to Brexit?

 

Good grief, are you being deliberately obtuse?

The fact that we had an imcompetent, botched, undermined-at-every-opportunity-by-a-hardcore-remain-civil-service Brexit is not somehow the fault of Brexit as a concept.  Nobody voted for a poorly-delivered Brexit.  Certain organisations ensured that's what we got, however, even to the point of self-harm.

 

Not this one again: The ability to determine our own legislative priorities and implement them as we see fit, by people we can hold accountable at the ballot box.

Summed it up perfectly , others  should share blaim aswell.

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

But we clearly are, we are the ones that decided to leave, therefore we need to note how issues that naturally arise from that decision should be resolved. 

No we have a problem with the Northern Ireland protocol, it's the EU and only the EU that have ever mentioned a hard border to protect their single market. We have said from the very start, we will not be reinstating a border on the island of Ireland, regardless if the EU insist.

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

Yes, but that wasn’t just “the done thing”, there was a proper legislative agreement agreed by both sides with how that would work. 
 

Also if that was before either of us were members of the EU then it’s irrelevant. 
ROI remains an EU member whilst we have chosen to leave, so obviously the situation is different now. 
 

The base facts have changed. 

And our freedom of movement with Ireland is still in place, always will be. It has been in place before the EU and will always be in place. Nothing has changed.

[Newbie to this]

48 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Again, the promises and claims made by Johnson et Al, were that once out of the EU we would easily resolve these issues

But we still have the same EU laws intertwined in our legislation, the powers that be haven't done the necessary to cut the EU laws from our own. In essence we are still playing by the EU's rulebook. 

36 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Not this one again: The ability to determine our own legislative priorities and implement them as we see fit, by people we can hold accountable at the ballot box.

if they ever cut the EU red tape.

[udderlyoffroad]

9 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

But we still have the same EU laws intertwined in our legislation, the powers that be haven't done the necessary to cut the EU laws from our own. In essence we are still playing by the EU's rulebook. 

if they ever cut the EU red tape.

Indeed, but I was talking about going forwards.

What you are referring to is the vast array of EU directives already enacted into UK law via Statutory Instruments (SIs), which remain in force.  Sunak has neither the political will nor the understanding to do anything about the most ridiculous of these, and all Labour know how to do is scream  "muh worker's rights" whenever the media actually get around to discussing this, thus the debate goes nowhere.

 

[janner]

A citizen of anywhere in the united kingdom and northern ireland should have equal rights, no special deals, no backtracking,

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by janner
Short version

[oowee]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

The fact that we had an imcompetent, botched, undermined-at-every-opportunity-by-a-hardcore-remain-civil-service Brexit is not somehow the fault of Brexit as a concept.  Nobody voted for a poorly-delivered Brexit.  Certain organisations ensured that's what we got, however, even to the point of self-harm.

 

 

What a strange world you believe in. 

Brexit is a flawed concept start to finish. It will and can never be anything but a pile of botched arrangements. Sunak is starting the process of trying to make something a little more coherent. 

[udderlyoffroad]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

What a strange world you believe in. 

Democracy and accountability from Politicians I can elect versus an all-powerful EU commission I can't?   Call me strange!

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

Brexit is a flawed concept start to finish.

So is the United States of Europe, sorry "Ever Closer Political and Economic Union".

At least the US has checks and balances, and can elect their politicians, at the local, regional, state, and federal level.

The EU wants no such power to exist, only that the burgers can occasionally elect their MEPs, who sit in a revising chamber only.

[udderlyoffroad]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

Sunak is starting the process of trying to make something a little more coherent. 

Once again, Sunak was chancellor when Boris was PM.  He should've piped up, way, way, sooner.

But then again Starmer should've led some competent opposition on the NI deal.

[janner]

Well,

was the game really worth the candle?,

Where are we now all these years later, 

 

 

[enfieldspares]

6 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

What was it that we took back control of? 

As I said to my friend who voted Brexit "The only thing Rees-Mogg and his class have ever allowed you control of is the lottery numbers you choose on Wednesday and Saturday. To these people you are not even something on the bottom of their shoes. Save useful lobby fodder just as in 1914 you were useful cannon fodder."

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by enfieldspares

[owain]

9 hours ago, janner said:

I dont give a damn about business,red lanes, green lanes etc, brexit wasnt about what was best for business, it was about freedom,

Wether a citizen of all countries concerned in this ballsup have the same or equal rights and freedoms  is what matters to me,

 

[12gauge82]

10 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Again, the promises and claims made by Johnson et Al, were that once out of the EU we would easily resolve these issues. 
 

Claimed it was the EU and their courts holding us back. 
 

“Take back control” was the slogan wasn't it? 
 

The fact that you have stated many of those issues have proven to be nothing to do with the EU just proves the point that there were lots of lies peddled. 
 

What was it that we took back control of? 

Brexit hasn't been delivered because the politicians in power don't want to deliver it. The NI situation should have been simple, they should have left under exactly the same rules as us and we install no hard border, I don't believe the EU would install one either, but if they did, that would have been on them, or maybe Ireland would have to leave the EU to, either way, their problem, not ours. 

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Brexit hasn't been delivered because the politicians in power don't want to deliver it. The NI situation should have been simple, they should have left under exactly the same rules as us and we install no hard border, I don't believe the EU would install one either, but if they did, that would have been on them, or maybe Ireland would have to leave the EU to, either way, their problem, not ours. 

What would happen with migrants? 

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Brexit hasn't been delivered because the politicians in power don't want to deliver it. 

Boris Johnson, the main message boy and pusher of Brexit was in power for a significant time, but didn't get it delivered in the way some want.

Who exactly could of done a better job? What exactly would they have done differently? 

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

The NI situation should have been simple, they should have left under exactly the same rules as us and we install no hard border.

So we have left, but we have no border and no changes at all to the current system? 

How does that work? The ROI is a EU country... what happened to taking back control of our borders? 

Surely people can see that the current arrangement (or previous) was based on us as members of the EU. 

We chose to leave, ROI remains a EU member, therefore the current (or previous) border arrangements no longer apply. 

 

How can you sit there and basically say "We have left but we refuse to put a border in or make any changes ... and if the EU put's a border in, we can blame all the problems on them because they put it in and we didn't". 

 

Our entire country, as well as all Government organisations are based around the rule of law. We simply can't have no legal basis in place and say "Ah ... we chose to leave, but it's on the EU to put a border up". 

 

 

The idea that there was a Golden Brexit out there, but the Brexit no1 poster boy Johnson didn't get it because he didn't want to is laughable. 

It is clear now that there could of only ever been 3 outcomes to the NI / ROI issue, give back the 6 counties, have a border or have some sort of special arrangement (which we now have). The continued statements of "We won't put up a Border and neither will the EU" does nothing to resolve the issue, it just pretends it's not there whilst it goes on. 

[Minky]

When all of the hugging etc has died down the unionists aren't going to accept this supposed deal. On the face of it it is everything to all men BUT there are too manhandled and strings that are still involved with the EU.  There is miles to many random rules that they will still control.  If the EU want a goods control why has it never been thought of to establish controls inside of Eire.   You don't have continental border controls in Dover for stuff coming here.

[12gauge82]

6 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Boris Johnson, the main message boy and pusher of Brexit was in power for a significant time, but didn't get it delivered in the way some want.

Who exactly could of done a better job? What exactly would they have done differently? 

So we have left, but we have no border and no changes at all to the current system? 

How does that work? The ROI is a EU country... what happened to taking back control of our borders? 

Surely people can see that the current arrangement (or previous) was based on us as members of the EU. 

We chose to leave, ROI remains a EU member, therefore the current (or previous) border arrangements no longer apply. 

 

How can you sit there and basically say "We have left but we refuse to put a border in or make any changes ... and if the EU put's a border in, we can blame all the problems on them because they put it in and we didn't". 

 

Our entire country, as well as all Government organisations are based around the rule of law. We simply can't have no legal basis in place and say "Ah ... we chose to leave, but it's on the EU to put a border up". 

 

 

The idea that there was a Golden Brexit out there, but the Brexit no1 poster boy Johnson didn't get it because he didn't want to is laughable. 

It is clear now that there could of only ever been 3 outcomes to the NI / ROI issue, give back the 6 counties, have a border or have some sort of special arrangement (which we now have). The continued statements of "We won't put up a Border and neither will the EU" does nothing to resolve the issue, it just pretends it's not there whilst it goes on. 

There has historically never been a border between Ireland and NI, the EU has other countries it has no physical borders with that are also not EU members. We should have left the EU, remainers would have called it a 'hard brexit', in reality it would just be delivering what was voted for. And the NI border should be left how it was, it is a problem manufactured by the EU. 

7 hours ago, oowee said:

What would happen with migrants? 

Relatively speaking, there is not a migrant problem with Ireland, the numbers arriving there would likely cause very little issue to us, especially when looking at the numbers coming in else where. Not to mention, our border has always been open there, if a problem occured due to migration from Erie, it would be a problem we faced anyway and has nothing to do with EU membership or not. 

[enfieldspares]

6 hours ago, Minky said:

You don't have continental border controls in Dover for stuff coming here.

Yes you do and always have had. Except that since 2002 and the Anglo French Le Touquet Treaty the frontier for goods entering the UK from the continent has been at Calais for the ferries and Coquelles for the Eurotunnel and for goods entering the continent from the UK has been respectively at Dover and Folkestone.

Which is why you see a lot of newspaper reports of people smuggling goods, drugs, firearms of people into the UK from the continent via the Eurotunnel as "Mr and Mrs X or Mr Y were arrested by UK Border Force officials at Coquelles and charged with the offence of illegally...."

Previous to 2002 the frontier was at Dover or Folkestone which is why you could arrive at Calais or Folkestone and literally drive on to the ferry or shuttle straight after producing your crossing ticket at the ticket booth and no customs nor passport controls were done by the authorities there.

So there is a frontier at Dover but since 2002 the begining of it coming into the UK by ferry has been at Calais. Which is why for the most part you no longer get stopped there as it has all been done by UK Border Force in France at Calais.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by enfieldspares