Do you trust BASC

[Dave-G]

9 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Nevertheless here is the link to the CPSA insurance:

https://www.cpsa.co.uk/files/download/1414/SL-CPSA-Leaflet-2022-Edition-Digital.pdf

 

Thanks for that. I now rarely shoot due to almost non existent bunnies so will probably not renew BASC nor get any other insurance, I've not shot since last autumn.

[merseamal]

2 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Thanks for that. I now rarely shoot due to almost non existent bunnies so will probably not renew BASC nor get any other insurance, I've not shot since last autumn.

My my 

 

scully, whilst I’m happy to join in this conversation as I like, same as everyone else, I’m not going to start posting links, neither do I have to answer anything in here (even though I’m pretty sure I have answered anything put to me), rewolf has seen the accounts, if you’re really interested go to British Association for Shooting and Conservation Ltd on the FCA website and you’ll see them. And, my set of questions have not been answered by Rewolf.

regarding lead shot, that’s easy. Lead shot can pose a risk to some birds whilst feeding and the watercourse so, if a clay ground doesn’t have those birds or watercourse, no risk, if it does, create a management plan to deal with it, pretty sure the CPSA are all for moving to steel, as are many clay shots as it’s better than lead. But, BASC is opposing a move to non toxic.

(Non fac) air guns, pellets don’t travel fast enough to heat up enough to break down on impact, cut that little pellet out your bunny and no risk, air gun pellets are too big for birds to mistake for food or accidentally eat. But, BASC is opposing a move to non toxic.

CPSA (and BASCs old) legal cover. Why would anyone need legal cover? If you’ve done nothing wrong you won’t loose your guns, if you’ve done something wrong legal cover doesn’t cover you…. And in the extremely rare circumstance where you’ve done nothing wrong and you have an issue with renewal or loosing your guns BASC has a whole firearms department to deal with it and in worst case could use the fighting fund.

finally, the exact figures for what has been spent on the fighting fund are not published, the legal, audited, FCA accounts are. Would you expect to see minute financial detail for any other organisation, CPSA, NGO, GWCT or even Coca Cola, BP? Ask questions and when you get a suitable answer how about accepting it rather than expecting something you would not get from any organisation, that’s just not a level playing field.

in my very honest and personal option, some of you causing the biggest fuss are the very reason why shooting is in the trouble it is, I think you’re short sighted and should really think about becoming part of the solution rather than part of the problem, we have enough of that from the anti brigade.

did I miss anything?

[Gordon R]

Yes - the answers you claim to have given. You make statements and can't or won't back them up.

Your posts are patronising and simplistic, but lack the detail you claim to have given.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

British Association for Shooting and Conservation Ltd

 

 

No search results for British Association for Shooting and Conservation Ltd

That works well !

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

I’m not going to start posting links

What ? When theres an opportunity to shut me up by providing either the links , or the information Ive asked for...Politely ?

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

CPSA (and BASCs old) legal cover. Why would anyone need legal cover? If you’ve done nothing wrong you won’t loose your guns, if you’ve done something wrong legal cover doesn’t cover you…. And in the extremely rare circumstance where you’ve done nothing wrong and you have an issue with renewal or loosing your guns BASC has a whole firearms department to deal with it and in worst case could use the fighting fund.

 

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

finally, the exact figures for what has been spent on the fighting fund are not published, the legal, audited, FCA accounts are. Would you expect to see minute financial detail for any other organisation

Whoa ! So the answers to my question , that youve been telling me for the last week are there for all to see in the accounts.... Arent actually there... Well ....

Ive asked the question , repeatedly , Ive given reasons why Ive asked it, Ive been told its been answered , repeatedly ...
And all weve had is dodging and diving , insults and character attacks.
Anyone would think the answers were a little embarrassing or something... ?

[12gauge82]

This thread has been a bit of an eye opener for me and has left me questioning my previous belief in Basc as the best defence of the future of shooting. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Here is the link to BASC's annual accounts on the FCA website:

https://mutuals.fca.org.uk/Search/Society/836

The documents section has annual accounts back to 1997 and in each annual return and accounts download is included a copy of the Report of the Executive and Finance Committee. Just scroll down the download to read it.

As regards BASC's latest Fighting Fund launched after the AGM in 2020:

The 2020 report of the Executive and Finance Committee is available here:

https://mutuals.fca.org.uk/Documents/Download/785154

Various refs to the fighting fund in the report and the following section also:

Fighting Fund
In 2020 the Association agreed to transfer £1m from the profit and loss reserve into a fighting fund reserve with the purpose of ensuring we are able to fight and continue to guarantee the future for sustainable shooting sports, in all their diversity, as a widely enjoyed and important part of the environment, economy and culture. During 2020 the Association also received donations of £5,065 and had expenditure £298,595 leaving a closing balance of £706,470.

The 2021 report of the Executive and Finance Committee is available here:

https://mutuals.fca.org.uk/Documents/Download/954644

Again various refs to the fighting fund in the report and the following section also:

Fighting Fund
In 2020 the Association agreed to transfer £1m from the profit and loss reserve into a fighting fund reserve with the purpose of ensuring we are able to fight and continue to guarantee the future for sustainable shooting sports, in all their diversity, as a widely enjoyed and important part of the environment, economy and culture. At the end of 2021 the remaining funds were £587,656
(2020: £706,470).

As I have explained twice previously BASC's 2021 annual review explained that by end of 2021 BASC's fighting fund had been used to help beat off legal challenges to hen harrier brood management, prescribed burning on moorland, general licences and gamebird release near protected sites. 

https://basc.org.uk/basc-annual-review/

There will be an update on how the fighting fund was used in 2022 in the upcoming 2022 BASC annual review.

Neither the 2021 annual report nor the 2020 or 2021 Executive and Finance Committee reports contain a breakdown of expenditure by topic on the fighting fund. 

If any BASC member thinks that we should publish a breakdown by topic for 2022 in the 2022 annual report please email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk and I can pass on your request to the Executive Directors for consideration. 
 

[Scully]

2 hours ago, merseamal said:

 

scully, whilst I’m happy to join in this conversation as I like, same as everyone else, I’m not going to start posting links, neither do I have to answer anything in here (even though I’m pretty sure I have answered anything put to me)

Have you? You made the claim the answers were there…..

finally, the exact figures for what has been spent on the fighting fund are not published,

…….but now you’re saying they’re not! 

did I miss anything? What do YOU reckon? 

As an aside, I do much much more for the future of shooting in the UK, than most of BASC’s actual members, who can’t even be bothered to fill in a questionnaire! 

[Conor O'Gorman]

31 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

This thread has been a bit of an eye opener for me and has left me questioning my previous belief in Basc as the best defence of the future of shooting. 

@12gauge82unfortunately that is the intention of some (not all) of the ex-BASC members with various real or perceived axes to grind from the past posting in this thread. It is divisive and hateful stuff and very wrong in my book at the very time when we all need to get behind all the shooting organisations. However, there are some BASC members posting in this thread challenging the antis (and let's be clear - some of the trolls may shoot but they are antis nonetheless in what they are doing) here and elsewhere and that is a positive from this thread and I hope more PW members that are BASC members come out and fight on this and other issues.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Conor O'Gorman

[clangerman]

5 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@12gauge82unfortunately that is the intention of some (not all) of the ex-BASC members with various real or perceived axes to grind from the past posting in this thread. It is divisive and hateful stuff and very wrong in my book at the very time when we all need to get behind all the shooting organisations. However, there are some BASC members posting in this thread challenging the antis (and let's be clear - some of the trolls may shoot but they are antis nonetheless in what they are doing) here and elsewhere and that is a positive from this thread and I hope more PW members that are BASC members come out and fight on this and other issues.

who do you think you are calling people trolls had you kept your big mouths shut instead of calling for a lead ban that affects everyone else nobody would be chucking stones your bunch of cronies has done more damage to shooting with your ban rubbish than antis every have claim your shame! 

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

who do you think you are calling people trolls had you kept your big mouths shut instead of calling for a lead ban that affects everyone else nobody would be chucking stones your bunch of cronies has done more damage to shooting with your ban rubbish than antis every have claim your shame! 

BASC didn’t call for the lead ban. 

[Weihrauch17]

BASC calling people with genuine concerns anti's, the only anti's I see are those pushing for a self inflicted lead ban on the back of absolutely no evidence.  What is the worst thing that could have happened if BASC fought a Lead Ban, oh yes a Lead Ban which we will now have decimating many entry level shooting sports for absolutely no reason.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Weihrauch17

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Neither the 2021 annual report nor the 2020 or 2021 Executive and Finance Committee reports contain a breakdown of expenditure by topic on the fighting fund

So you don't publish the figures for what the fighting fund has been used for , and it appears, won't publish them?

Despite being told they are there to see. It's apparently a secret. 

Glad we've got that bit cleared up 😂

 

10 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

ex-BASC members with various real or perceived axes to grind from the past posting in this thread. It is divisive and hateful stuff and very wrong in my book

It's very wrong in my book that you've spent nearly half a million pounds of subscription money, and flatly refuse to say what on. 

 

12 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

the antis (and let's be clear - some of the trolls may shoot but they are antis nonetheless in what they are doing

Troll and anti, who would have thought asking a question would denigrate into turning someone into such? 

Do I trust BASC? 

I'll have to give that some thought... 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@Rewulfand still you go on and on and yet another promise broken in face of the facts. I think that's shameful behaviour and comments by a fellow shooter towards BASC but at least there can be absolutely no doubt that you have nothing constructive to bring to the table.

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@Rewulfand still you go on and on and yet another promise broken in face of the facts. I think that's shameful behaviour and comments by a fellow shooter towards BASC but at least there can be absolutely no doubt that you have nothing constructive to bring to the table.

Shameful? 

Broken promises? 

Nothing constructive? 

Why don't you try answering genuine questions, posed by the members of this forum, it might go some way in repairing the image of your organisation? 

What on earth do you think people are going to think when you resort to insults, rather than simply answer with some figures? 

I've not even asked about the wage bill yet, so yes I will go on and on. 

[merseamal]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

As an aside, I do much much more for the future of shooting in the UK, than most of BASC’s actual members, who can’t even be bothered to fill in a questionnaire! 

😂 Righto carry on thinking that 

[Gordon R]

merseamal - take a break from your petty insults and provide the information that you repeatedly claim to have supplied.

Your evasion is embarrassing.

Are you genuinely a shooter or merely a troll?

[holloway]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

This thread has been a bit of an eye opener for me and has left me questioning my previous belief in Basc as the best defence of the future of shooting. 

I wouldn’t take much notice of 90 % of this thread make up your own mind if you know of an alternative please share.

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@12gauge82unfortunately that is the intention of some (not all) of the ex-BASC members with various real or perceived axes to grind from the past posting in this thread. It is divisive and hateful stuff and very wrong in my book at the very time when we all need to get behind all the shooting organisations. However, there are some BASC members posting in this thread challenging the antis (and let's be clear - some of the trolls may shoot but they are antis nonetheless in what they are doing) here and elsewhere and that is a positive from this thread and I hope more PW members that are BASC members come out and fight on this and other issues.

I do understand where your coming from and I feel very conflicted on this issue, basc were good when I asked for some advice many years ago. 

While I know it is always easier to throw stones and tear someones efforts down than build something up. After reading this thread I do wonder if the non lead issue could have been more robustly fought. 

Unlike me as it is, I think I'm going to sit safely back on my fence as I simply don't know enough of the facts to form my own opinions fully. 

27 minutes ago, holloway said:

 make up your own mind if you know of an alternative please share.

I agree, I don't believe any other orgs are currently either willing or better positioned to represent shooting better than basc at present. 

[merseamal]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

 

No search results for British Association for Shooting and Conservation Ltd

That works well !

What ? When theres an opportunity to shut me up by providing either the links , or the information Ive asked for...Politely ?

You’ve quoted the figures so I know you’ve seen the accounts and I don’t want to **** you up, I want you to shoot for shooting, not against it.

Whoa ! So the answers to my question , that youve been telling me for the last week are there for all to see in the accounts.... Arent actually there... Well ....

income v expenditure is there, exact figures to each cases are not there (and nobody should expect them to be in any organisation but Connor has provided a comprehensive list of what it was spent on.

Ive asked the question , repeatedly , Ive given reasons why Ive asked it, Ive been told its been answered , repeatedly ...
And all weve had is dodging and diving , insults and character attacks.

I have not attacked your character, but I have attacked you attack on the councils character 

Anyone would think the answers were a little embarrassing or something... ?

 

[merseamal]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

merseamal - take a break from your petty insults and provide the information that you repeatedly claim to have supplied.

Your evasion is embarrassing.

Are you genuinely a shooter or merely a troll?

I’ve not tried to insult anyone, but by all means, if the cap fits….

Am I genuinely a shooter? I’m one of the few along with Connor who is still actively responding to this thread imploring you all to see sense and start supporting or at least stop attacking our only hope at a future in shooting, I have been shooting, fishing, foraging, conserving and living a country life all my life and have a 2 month old granddaughter who I will fight until my last breath to enable me to be able to take her shooting, and see you few squabblers as a bigger threat to shooting than vegans and antis, and yes I’m passionate but I have not (intentionally) been rude to anyone, just calling you out for what I see, and would just as happily  say it hear as I would to your faces.

I think you’ve all got a dose of sour grapes over BASC, over legal protection you’ve never needed and steel shot that was about to have a blanket ban, is toxic (absolutely no arguing that) shooting is falling apart from a lack of unity and you’d rather blame BASC than look at yourselves and take your portion of the blame.

I’ve not evaded anything, I’ve pointed you in the direction of the answers, said my piece. BASC don’t have to publish an in depth detail of outgoings same as the rest of the mutuals and ltd and plc’s in the world so why should they, no other shooting organisation does.

if it makes you feel better blaming BASC rather than yourselves for the possible future demise of our way of life then as long as you feel good about it good for you!

call me what you want, I’m not rude I’m a realist and straight talking, I’m not a troll or anti I’m the most proud countryman you’ll ever meet.

[Gordon R]

You are rude, patronising and I cannot accept that it was unintentional.

[Rim Fire]

13 hours ago, merseamal said:

(Non fac) air guns, pellets don’t travel fast enough to heat up enough to break down on impact, cut that little pellet out your bunny and no risk, air gun pellets are too big for birds to mistake for food or accidentally eat. But, BASC is opposing a move to non toxic.

Got to disagree with this paragraph air rifle pellets are the worst thing for BOP they are a lot bigger  than a piece of lead shot out of a shotgun and as its only 12ft pound it wont go through and through so will be stuck in what ever its been fired at and gets eaten by any meat eater  

[Scully]

9 hours ago, merseamal said:

😂 Righto carry on thinking that 

🙂 Thanks, I will, as I know it’s a fact. 

Laugh all you like, but do you know how many of BASCs 155,000 ( ‘ if you’re not a member you’re part of the problem ‘ ) members, could be bothered to fill in the HSE consultation? Less than 2000! 
Now that IS funny! 🙂

[merseamal]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

🙂 Thanks, I will, as I know it’s a fact. 

Laugh all you like, but do you know how many of BASCs 155,000 ( ‘ if you’re not a member you’re part of the problem ‘ ) members, could be bothered to fill in the HSE consultation? Less than 2000! 
Now that IS funny! 🙂

Not really, everyone knows lead is toxic and that there’s alternative shot out there almost everyone I’ve spoken to is more than happy to move away from lead shot.

 

and regarding those that think BASC should have outright opposed it all, how authoritative would they have looked trying to tell scientists and MPs that lead isn’t toxic? 

[holloway]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

🙂 Thanks, I will, as I know it’s a fact. 

Laugh all you like, but do you know how many of BASCs 155,000 ( ‘ if you’re not a member you’re part of the problem ‘ ) members, could be bothered to fill in the HSE consultation? Less than 2000! 
Now that IS funny! 🙂

I think that the point that Scully continues to make concerning shooting people and I would suggest the majority not only Basc members ,is the continued apathy to get involved and effect any changes that might be forced on us all. 
   If this thread was a government consultation the 13 pages would be a superb turnout .Sadly it not really of any importance or value.