Steel on a sim day

[HantsRob]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CuzDO0nNOLD/?igshid=YTk3ZGUzYjQ1Yw==

 

guy_peter_maddocks Edited • 1d

Interesting article about the dangers of using HP

Steel through classic guns!

From Hortons Guns.

The effects of steel shot, ouch!

17

17th July 2023 | General Gun Posts

We hear it in the press all the time, yes steel is fine to use, no problem at all. To be really frank, they are burying their head in the sand. But don't take our word for it, look at the evidence.

This quite lovely English gun came into us as the customer had noticed a 'slight' bulge in the choke of the left hand barrel. We asked if he'd been shooting steel? Yes, last year on a big shoot he was invited to and they supplied the cartridges.

We don't know if they were HP steel but by the look of the damage left behind, we believe it was.

The pressure has even loosened the lump on the barrel itself. It is the worst we've ever seen. The wall thickness in the left barrel was 22 thou.

You'll see from the pictures below that the pressure has actually made the barrel rippled externally and it is even worse on the inside.

These barrels are now scrap and beyond all repair and the customer has a dilemma, does he foot the bill for a new set of barrels? Or does he buy a cheap throw away gun?

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THE UK NEED A CREDIBLE LEAD SHOT ALTERNATIVE. We are now close to a deal on our Hortonium shot, we don't want to see guns abused like this.

[holloway]

 there are many causes for this sort of damage but I suppose it serves there ends to blame steel ,in the event it was steel it was the owners error using unsuitable cartridges why blame steel for the owner’s ignorance.

Hortons state it was the worst damage they had seen yet the owner bought the gun in as he had noticed a slight bulge …sorry but none of this makes sense .

Edited July 18, 2023 by holloway

[scarecrow243]

steel does ruin barrels in shotguns norway was the first country to ban lead shot years before any country they have overturned the lead ban as they found out it did damage guns so who would you believe 

[Dave at kelton]

There are too many factors at play here for me to take this at face value. Not least is what cartridges have been used, shot size and through what chokes? It also refers to HP steel which seems to show the ignorance of the user.

Having used standard steel in a thin walled English gun without ill effect and HP steel BB and AAA in modern wildfowling guns I am not in panic mode. But if you want to be super careful just follow, I think Westley Richards advice, and fork out for bismuth.

[Old farrier]

So 

this is a advertisement type article to sell a non proven cartridge for the future that’s important to remember 

I shall try and be rational about it 

first point 

you can blow up guns with lead and cause the same type of damage as illustrated ?

second point 

when this type of damage happens you notice it stop shooting and think how lucky you are that it never totally blew up ?

third point 

you would then pick up the empty cases and examine them ?

Then looking at the link and seeing the guy is a regular poster on the net probability post it all over social media 

just my thoughts 

of 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just too many unknowns in the original story!

1. Would anyone use unknown cartridges supplied on a simulated game day?

2. Would the organiser use HP Steel cartridges on a simulated game day?

3. Why has it taken so long to get the gun in to a Gun Smith?

4. It is nothing more than an advert from Horton Guns for their Hortonium Cartridges!

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, surely the owner of the English gun should have realised if they were HP steel cartridges it would damage his shotgun 🤔

Edited July 19, 2023 by oldypigeonpopper

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, surely the owner of the English gun should have realised if they were HP steel cartridges it would damage his shotgun 🤔

I’m sure he would have realised that on the first shot when his shoulder was almost pushed out of its socket 🙄🤔

[oldypigeonpopper]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

I’m sure he would have realised that on the first shot when his shoulder was almost pushed out of its socket 🙄🤔

Hello, my thoughts to but forgot to mention, although I have never used steel shot HP or other wise, 

[JohnfromUK]

I know an example - 20+ years ago, long 'pre steel' where a local was invited on a pre season simulated day, cartridges provided.  He enjoyed the day and shot 'a lot of cartridges', but did feel the recoil at the end of the day.

He noticed afterwards, his gun (a s/s Boss from pre war days) didn't feel quite right and took it to a gunsmith to be checked over 'pre season' despite it having had a recent 'service' at the gunmakers.  Result - gun 'badly off the face' - which had not been the case a few months before.

Further enquiries established that he had put a few hundred 2 3/4" fairly 'hot' cartridges through his 2 1/2" chambered gun.  It was a mistake that was expensive to correct.

That was all lead.

I was myself shooting at a 'cartridges provided' clays stand at a fund raising event and checked that they were using 2 1/2" cartridges - and was assured they were and shown a box of what they were using - Hull CompX 21g - my own preferred choice.  Because some people were beginners, everyone was accompanied buy a loader and as I was shooting the loader handing me cartridges gave me two 'non matching cartridges', one being a black CompX 21g and the other a 32g - 2 3/4" cased cartridge - which I declined to fire.  He didn't see a problem and 'used them all the time' which is how he happened to have one in his pocket!

No harm done, but might have been expensive.

[London Best]

A friend of mine took a team (clients) to shoot partridge in Spain. Cartridges were provided. The team had 12’s, 20’s and 28 bores. He himself always used a lovely English 16 bore SxS. He spent two days, both 500+ bird days, using the provided cartridges which, on later investigation turned, out to be 70mm whiz-bang jobs. His beautiful 16 was put completely off the face.

I was once persuaded to join a friend at a charity clay shoot. I could hardly refuse as the charity was for a cause involving his dying wife. I mentioned that I didn’t have any cartridges and was told I could buy them at the event. When there I tried to buy and was given 70mm (2 3/4 in) cartridges. I handed them back and said they were no good for my gun and please could I have some 65mm, 2 1/2 in. cartridges. The reply was that those were what everybody used and they were all they had. Nobody could understand my problem and it turned out that not one person involved with running the shoot had ever heard that some guns had shorter chambers. Obviously, I didn’t put them through my gun and used, rather unsuccessfully, my mate’s Browning which was left handed and far too long for me.

[HantsRob]

I like the replies and I have tried not to get involved. I had similar questions around shooting something you didn't know, if I were given 250 carts I'd at least want to know the load, type etc. 

Sadly I agree it's potentially an awfully written sales advert, but is there also to scare people into verrrry expensive alternatives. 

Thankyou for the food for thoughts
 

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Would the organiser use HP Steel cartridges on a simulated game day?

 

4. It is nothing more than an advert from Horton Guns for their Hortonium Cartridges!

I'm not sure why you'd need HP unless real birds and needing large pellets? Is there any justification for HP on a sim day?

Agreed with the other sentence!

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

you can blow up guns with lead and cause the same type of damage as illustrated ?

What would cause that with a standard lead cartridge? I'm certainly not questioning, just learning!

 

8 minutes ago, London Best said:

I handed them back and said they were no good for my gun and please could I have some 65mm, 2 1/2 in. cartridges. The reply was that those were what everybody used and they were all they had. Nobody could understand my problem and it turned out that not one person involved with running the shoot had ever heard that some guns had shorter chambers. Obviously, I didn’t put them through my gun and used, rather unsuccessfully, my mate’s Browning which was left handed and far too long for me.

Nice story! To be fair until your post a few days ago I would never have considered older guns that are 2 1/2" only. 

Have you ever had yours measured? I believe where carts are often "67mm but proofed for 65mm/2.5"" (I read somewhere that CIP see 65 and 67mm as both 'the same' and suitable for 2 1/2") I should measure one of my 67mm carts and see if it actually measures that or 1.5mm short as, again, I've read is often the case.

I am wondering if a 2 1/2" chamber is possibly more like 2 5/8" and therefore is proofed for 2 1/2" but allows for up to 67mm carts?

[London Best]

5 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

I am wondering if a 2 1/2" chamber is possibly more like 2 5/8" and therefore is proofed for 2 1/2" but allows for up to 67mm carts?

Nail on head!

All this comes from the days when all cartridges were rolled turnover closures. 
With the invention of crimp closures cartridge cases needed to be longer to form the crimp and still contain the same load. Hence some traditional cartridges, such as the standard British Eley Grand Prix, had to be put into 2 3/4 cases but were still a 2 1/2 inch loading classed as suitable for 2 1/2 inch chambers despite the longer case. 
For many years now the length written on the case is the chamber length for which that cartridge is suitable, not necessarily the length of the fired case.

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

it turned out that not one person involved with running the shoot had ever heard that some guns had shorter chambers.

This is much more common that it should be.  My local clays ground doesn't stock 2 1/2" cartridges (not a problem to me as I always take my own).  I enquired if they ever had 2 1/2 cartridges - and the reply was that the deliberately don't because they won't 'work' in some autos and pumps.

What also amazes (and slightly horrifies me) is the number of people who know nothing about proof, what their gun is proofed for and where the proof marks are.  I would agree that it is a slightly difficult subject because the marks (and more notably the 'figures') have changed over the years - and many overseas guns are legal under their original (foreign) proof - whereas a few are not, or are not proofed.  Annoyingly - there is no decent guide.  I do have an older book (The Standard Directory of Proof Marks), but it is outdated and fairly hard to get hold of a copy now.

My original shooting 'mentor' insisted I was conversant in "Rules of Proof", proof marks and how to read them and how to determine if cartridges were suitable (both technically for the gun and 'effectively' for the intended quarry).

[JohnfromUK]

Simple chamber gauge I made a few years ago now:

[Old Boggy]

26 minutes ago, London Best said:

Nail on head!

All this comes from the days when all cartridges were rolled turnover closures. 
With the invention of crimp closures cartridge cases needed to be longer to form the crimp and still contain the same load. Hence some traditional cartridges, such as the standard British Eley Grand Prix, had to be put into 2 3/4 cases but were still a 2 1/2 inch loading classed as suitable for 2 1/2 inch chambers despite the longer case. 
For many years now the length written on the case is the chamber length for which that cartridge is suitable, not necessarily the length of the fired case.

I have just looked at a couple of different 16 bore cartridges and the fired case is that marked on the case as hopefully the attached photos indicate. I am sure that using cartridges with a fired length of 67mm are still suitable in 65mm (2 1/2 inch) chambers. Hopefully no-one can dispel this and say that I shouldn`t be using these cartridges in my 2 1/2 inch chambered side by side.

OB

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

I am sure that using cartridges with a fired length of 67mm are still suitable in 65mm (2 1/2 inch) chambers.

It is my understanding that 'nominally' 2 1/2" chambers are 'actually' 2 5/8".  That (in metric) is 66.3 mm.  I suppose if you had very abrupt forcing cones there might just be a clash, but I have always been happy to use 67mm or 67.5mm (as some are including I think older Eley) in my 2 1/2" chambered guns.  I have never had any visible 'nipping' if the case ends (though have seen photos in magazines or on the web of 2 3/4 used cases fired in 2 1/2 chambers and how they get 'nipped' ends).  Forcing cone 'steepness' varies a bit between gun makes.

I don't know what the actual strict 'pass/fail' limits are on chamber diameter/length and forcing cone shapes.  I have heard that it has changed (CIP rules change?) in recent times to a tighter tolerance than it used to be, so a few older guns get into trouble on their chamber sizes with modern 'reproof', but can't conform that myself.

[Old Boggy]

31 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It is my understanding that 'nominally' 2 1/2" chambers are 'actually' 2 5/8".  That (in metric) is 66.3 mm.  I suppose if you had very abrupt forcing cones there might just be a clash, but I have always been happy to use 67mm or 67.5mm (as some are including I think older Eley) in my 2 1/2" chambered guns.  I have never had any visible 'nipping' if the case ends (though have seen photos in magazines or on the web of 2 3/4 used cases fired in 2 1/2 chambers and how they get 'nipped' ends).  Forcing cone 'steepness' varies a bit between gun makes.

I don't know what the actual strict 'pass/fail' limits are on chamber diameter/length and forcing cone shapes.  I have heard that it has changed (CIP rules change?) in recent times to a tighter tolerance than it used to be, so a few older guns get into trouble on their chamber sizes with modern 'reproof', but can't conform that myself.

Thanks for that John.

Also intrigued by your chamber gauge which you must have made to fairly fine tolerances.

Thanks for posting.

[London Best]

It is not just the length of the case which matters. 
Cartridges designed for 2 3/4 inch (70mm) chambered guns have a higher service pressure than 2 1/2 inch (65/7mm) cartridges. This is the crucial bit!

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Old Boggy said:

Also intrigued by your chamber gauge which you must have made to fairly fine tolerances.

It was turned on a lathe, but where I got the dimensions from in the end, I can't remember. 

It was then that someone (and I think it was a gunmaker friend of mine) said that the current CIP gauges are not quite the same as the old UK plug gauges used for a great many years by the London and Birmingham proof houses.  I think he gave me some dimensions (overall diameter to closely fit chamber) to use to make a practical and pragmatic 'check' gauge.  It is useful, but doesn't guarantee the same result as from the proof house!  Because you are measuring a chamber - one end of which is quite a gentle taper, a slight difference in chamber/plug diameter will have a more marked difference in the measured chamber length done with this type of plug gauge.

As a slight aside, when looking at guns in dealers showrooms - quite a few have no means of measuring whether the gun they are selling is 'in proof' - and those I have seen using a bore gauge (and even a few with a wall thickness gauge) - have never also used a chamber length gauge.  It is not unknown in America (where the proof issue is not a strict) for English guns to have the chambers lengthened - but not re-proofed - hence making them 'out of proof' here and so illegal to sell.

1 minute ago, London Best said:

Cartridges designed for 2 3/4 inch (70mm) chambered guns have a higher service pressure than 2 1/2 inch (65/7mm) cartridges.

That is certainly often true, and they are certainly permiitted to have a higher pressure.  But there are a number of 2 3/4" cased 28 gramme load cartridges (all 12 bore) around (I don't know 'why', but there are).  I wonder if they don't have a similar pressure to a 28 gramme load in 2 1/2" case?

[London Best]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

That is certainly often true, and they are certainly permiitted to have a higher pressure.  But there are a number of 2 3/4" cased 28 gramme load cartridges (all 12 bore) around (I don't know 'why', but there are).  I wonder if they don't have a similar pressure to a 28 gramme load in 2 1/2" case?

Who knows? 
I certainly never put them in my 2 1/2 inch guns just in case.

[Old farrier]

For Hants rob 

there can be many causes for this to happen usually with a bulge near the chamber to much pressure usually from a unsuitable cartilage in a inappropriate chamber length 

remember we are talking older guns here not new or modern ones 

a bulge near the muzzle is usually caused by a obstruction in the barrel 

now we are moving to steel it’s my thoughts that the way of proof needs changing as the bridging of larger steel pellets across the bore is quite capable of causing over pressure at or near to the muzzle/choke 

these problems can show in tightly bored guns with thin walls 

some may remember the 10 bores with thick walls that were bored out to 8 bore but not quite requiring a 9 bore wad to stop the rippling of the barrels 

just my thoughts on it 

OF

[HantsRob]

thanks chap, that makes so much sense!

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I certainly never put them in my 2 1/2 inch guns just in case.

No, nor would I, and in that case - there might well be considerably higher pressure if the crimp closure was unable to fully open due to being partly in the forcing cone area when opened.

36 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

thanks chap, that makes so much sense!

One further comment; as we have discussed many older guns (mainly s/s, but also the rare expensive English o/u I believe) have nominally 2 1/2" chambers.

Now at present, it is difficult to source steel loads in 2 1/2" cases.  Not impossible, but difficult - and the vast majority of steel loads will be in at least 2 3/4" cases.

Edited July 19, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[Krico woodcock]

My father sent a sxs to England about 12 or 13 years ago to get barrels lapped out to remove some pitting,  re blued, stock  re chequered. All work  done was top class. But the gun was also reproofed because of the pitting removal. It was always a 2 1/2"  65mm  1 1/8 .. But when it came back it was  stamped 70mm.  So they must have increased chamber length??