Steel on a sim day

[London Best]

11 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

Now at present, it is difficult to source steel loads in 2 1/2" cases.  Not impossible, but difficult - and the vast majority of steel loads will be in at least 2 3/4" cases.

In preparation for any lead ban I have sourced a slab of 2 1/2 inch steel cartridges, with a slab of 2 3/4 inch Bioammo for the Spanish side lock as a back up just in case I have any difficulty in replacing the 2 1/2 inch jobs post lead ban. 
I will, of course, only use either if/when the law forces me to.

[PeterHenry]

22 minutes ago, London Best said:

In preparation for any lead ban I have sourced a slab of 2 1/2 inch steel cartridges, with a slab of 2 3/4 inch Bioammo for the Spanish side lock as a back up just in case I have any difficulty in replacing the 2 1/2 inch jobs post lead ban. 
I will, of course, only use either if/when the law forces me to.

You can also get 2 1/2" bio ammo now - but i'm not sure what its like because I've never use it

[London Best]

Just now, PeterHenry said:

You can also get 2 1/2" bio ammo now - but i'm not sure what its like because I've never use it

Thanks for that. 
When I bought the 2 3/4 stuff the retailer did say 2 1/2 was available and, to be fair, we did search his stock room  but he didn’t have any and had no idea if he could get any more.

[holloway]

17 minutes ago, Krico woodcock said:

My father sent a sxs to England about 12 or 13 years ago to get barrels lapped out to remove some pitting,  re blued, stock  re chequered. All work  done was top class. But the gun was also reproofed because of the pitting removal. It was always a 2 1/2"  65mm  1 1/8 .. But when it came back it was  stamped 70mm.  So they must have increased chamber length?? 

Not necessarily as I sent an old 10 bore off for barrel lapping if memory serves me right Crudgington did the work ,it was then sent for reproofing and was returned stamped for 3 1/2 inch chambers when they were 2 7/8 ,I contacted the gun smith and he was adamant that the chambers were 3 1/2 I knew they weren’t as I took a chamber cast and sent the cast to Bill Harrington at Basc who agreed with  me that they were 2 7/8 .

I contacted the proof house who told me to send it back to them they checked and agreed they shouldn’t have stamped it 3 1/2 ,they put a big ugly cross over the incorrect marks and corrected the markings.

 So beware that was two professionals that made a very basic mistake that could have been dangerous.I would be measuring the chambers myself because they might not have been lengthened.

[Krico woodcock]

Would firing a 24g 70mm  trap cartridge,  produce more pressure than the original eley maximum 34g  designed to be used in         2 1/2" chambered guns??

4 minutes ago, holloway said:

Not necessarily as I sent an old 10 bore off for barrel lapping if memory serves me right Crudgington did the work ,it was then sent for reproofing and was returned stamped for 3 1/2 inch chambers when they were 2 7/8 ,I contacted the gun smith and he was adamant that the chambers were 3 1/2 I knew they weren’t as I took a chamber cast and sent the cast to Bill Harrington at Basc who agreed with  me that they were 2 7/8 .

I contacted the proof house who told me to send it back to them they checked and agreed they shouldn’t have stamped it 3 1/2 ,they put a big ugly cross over the incorrect marks and corrected the markings.

 So beware that was two professionals that made a very basic mistake that could have been dangerous.I would be measuring the chambers myself because they might not have been lengthened.

Thanks Holloway 

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Krico woodcock said:

Would firing a 24g 70mm  trap cartridge,  produce more pressure than the original eley maximum 34g  designed to be used in         2 1/2" chambered guns??

My guess (and it is only that) is that it would depend on the forcing cones (and cartridge).  IF there is sufficient room for a 2 3/4" cartridge to open out completely, then the pressure may not be all that higher than normal with 24g.  It would depend on how 'hot' the load is.  However, IF the crimp cannot open fully because it interferes with the cones, then the pressure will be higher - possibly a lot higher than it should be.  My view has always been that I won't ever shoot cartridges beyond what the gun was designed/proofed for.

[London Best]

6 minutes ago, Krico woodcock said:

Would firing a 24g 70mm  trap cartridge,  produce more pressure than the original eley maximum 34g  designed to be used in         2 1/2" chambered guns??

Thanks Holloway 

I would say, “possibly”. 
In fact, the answer is a definite “maybe”. 
Who knows?  
Personally, I wouldn’t put one through my 2 1/2 inch gun. 
It likely says on the box, “to be used only in guns proofed for 70mm cartridges or longer”. Where do you go to complain with your shattered 2 1/2 (65mm) chambered gun?

[Old farrier]

37 minutes ago, London Best said:

I would say, “possibly”. 
In fact, the answer is a definite “maybe”. 
Who knows?  
Personally, I wouldn’t put one through my 2 1/2 inch gun. 
It likely says on the box, “to be used only in guns proofed for 70mm cartridges or longer”. Where do you go to complain with your shattered 2 1/2 (65mm) chambered gun?

The hospital if it blows up and takes half your hand away 

[grahamch]

20 hours ago, scarecrow243 said:

steel does ruin barrels in shotguns norway was the first country to ban lead shot years before any country they have overturned the lead ban as they found out it did damage guns so who would you believe 

The Norwegian reversal was on animal welfare grounds

[enfieldspares]

"I've used steel for years in my old English side by side and it's not show any ill effects at all. Not one. Sound as the day it was made...blah, blah, blah...."

"I've been going down repeatedly to view the Titanic in my revolutionary carbon fibre submersible and it's not shown any ill effects at all. Not one. Sound as the day it was made...blah, blah, blah..."

Yes. Everything's always never a problem until that one moment when the percentages finally all line up and firmly remind you that you can only buck them for so long.

Edited July 19, 2023 by enfieldspares

[holloway]

1 hour ago, grahamch said:

The Norwegian reversal was on animal welfare grounds

Yes it was but they read into it what they want to .

[Dave at kelton]

You asked about this happening with lead and yes I once had it happen. I had an AYA 25 that developed a ring bulge at the choke in one barrel. Gunsmith thought I had left cleaning wadding in but I knew I hadn’t. Went back to AYA and when gauged the choke cone had been cut too steep. Had it eased and opened slightly and problem solved.

[Old Boggy]

22 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

It is my understanding that 'nominally' 2 1/2" chambers are 'actually' 2 5/8".  That (in metric) is 66.3 mm.  I suppose if you had very abrupt forcing cones there might just be a clash, but I have always been happy to use 67mm or 67.5mm (as some are including I think older Eley) in my 2 1/2" chambered guns.  I have never had any visible 'nipping' if the case ends (though have seen photos in magazines or on the web of 2 3/4 used cases fired in 2 1/2 chambers and how they get 'nipped' ends).  Forcing cone 'steepness' varies a bit between gun makes.

I don't know what the actual strict 'pass/fail' limits are on chamber diameter/length and forcing cone shapes.  I have heard that it has changed (CIP rules change?) in recent times to a tighter tolerance than it used to be, so a few older guns get into trouble on their chamber sizes with modern 'reproof', but can't conform that myself.

Having just looked a bit more carefully on the wording on the cartridge box (Hull), it does say that the length of 67mm (fired as my previous photo indicated) is suitable for guns with a chamber length of 65/67 or longer. This certainly avoids any doubt in my mind and therefore allays my fear of using them in my 16 bore 2 1/2 inch chambered side by sides.

OB

[Gas seal]

Hi the “quite lovely English gun “ should have instructions regarding cartridges stamped on the barrels, the cartridges should have instructions on the packaging. Guns made in the U.K. and elsewhere are now available steel shot proof. Some guns are stamped with read the manual before using. I’ve seen gun barrels damaged  before steel cartridges were used . I don’t know anything about the man who wrote the story but it’s the man in charge of the gun that broke it. if someone was injured when using the wrong ammunition it would be the user who would be responsible not the gun or cartridges manufacturers. A cartridge not suitable for a gun will damage the gun and anyone nearby,  it’s common sense , myth busters have done lots of testing with firearms showing this in slow motion. We all use guns, lovely or throw away, most of us know how to load them correctly. Yes it’s reads like another advertisement. Anyone know what a throw away gun is.

[GunQuarter]

On 18/07/2023 at 22:12, holloway said:

 there are many causes for this sort of damage but I suppose it serves there ends to blame steel ,in the event it was steel it was the owners error using unsuitable cartridges why blame steel for the owner’s ignorance.

Hortons state it was the worst damage they had seen yet the owner bought the gun in as he had noticed a slight bulge …sorry but none of this makes sense .

It is really simple and not that hard to understand. The chap is about 80 years old and noticed the bulge, didn't look in the barrel. It is the worst we've seen.

On 20/07/2023 at 19:13, Gas seal said:

Hi the “quite lovely English gun “ should have instructions regarding cartridges stamped on the barrels, the cartridges should have instructions on the packaging. Guns made in the U.K. and elsewhere are now available steel shot proof. Some guns are stamped with read the manual before using. I’ve seen gun barrels damaged  before steel cartridges were used . I don’t know anything about the man who wrote the story but it’s the man in charge of the gun that broke it. if someone was injured when using the wrong ammunition it would be the user who would be responsible not the gun or cartridges manufacturers. A cartridge not suitable for a gun will damage the gun and anyone nearby,  it’s common sense , myth busters have done lots of testing with firearms showing this in slow motion. We all use guns, lovely or throw away, most of us know how to load them correctly. Yes it’s reads like another advertisement. Anyone know what a throw away gun is.

The gun was made in the early 1900's and it is not a semi auto made in Turkey. Instructions stamped on the barrels, you do make me chuckle! 

 I've put all the information into one page on our website. Including a drop test video. We've tested the hell out of this, it works perfectly and it just needs ammunition manufacturers to pick up the phone and order it (after March next year as machines being built now). https://www.hortonguns.com/?page_id=819 If you want it, contact Hull, Eley, Lyalvale and Gamebore and ask when it is available.

[holloway]

4 hours ago, GunQuarter said:

It is really simple and not that hard to understand. The chap is about 80 years old and noticed the bulge, didn't look in the barrel. It is the worst we've seen.

The gun was made in the early 1900's and it is not a semi auto made in Turkey. Instructions stamped on the barrels, you do make me chuckle! 

 I've put all the information into one page on our website. Including a drop test video. We've tested the hell out of this, it works perfectly and it just needs ammunition manufacturers to pick up the phone and order it (after March next year as machines being built now). https://www.hortonguns.com/?page_id=819 If you want it, contact Hull, Eley, Lyalvale and Gamebore and ask when it is available.

You do not state the gun condition prior to the shoot or the type of cartridge, you do not know what type they were hp or not ,it really is quite simple to understand the most important facts are missing ,yet it suits a retailer specialising in fine English guns to blame steel very easy to understand .He could even have been poking 3 inch shells or 2 3/4 inch shells in to a fine old English 2 1/2 inch chambered gun …. without these facts you are speculating .Simple.

Also your table from your link stating permitted wads for Bismuth…ie  cupped plastic wad is incorrect, fibre is often used .

Edited November 20, 2023 by holloway

[wymberley]

3 hours ago, GunQuarter said:

and it just needs ammunition manufacturers to pick up the phone and order it

Even as tasty as it looks, I don't think that your passive sales technique from a bygone era is going to work in the 21 century. 

[Fil]

On 18/07/2023 at 21:18, HantsRob said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CuzDO0nNOLD/?igshid=YTk3ZGUzYjQ1Yw==

 

guy_peter_maddocks Edited • 1d

Interesting article about the dangers of using HP

Steel through classic guns!

From Hortons Guns.

The effects of steel shot, ouch!

17

17th July 2023 | General Gun Posts

We hear it in the press all the time, yes steel is fine to use, no problem at all. To be really frank, they are burying their head in the sand. But don't take our word for it, look at the evidence.

This quite lovely English gun came into us as the customer had noticed a 'slight' bulge in the choke of the left hand barrel. We asked if he'd been shooting steel? Yes, last year on a big shoot he was invited to and they supplied the cartridges.

We don't know if they were HP steel but by the look of the damage left behind, we believe it was.

The pressure has even loosened the lump on the barrel itself. It is the worst we've ever seen. The wall thickness in the left barrel was 22 thou.

You'll see from the pictures below that the pressure has actually made the barrel rippled externally and it is even worse on the inside.

These barrels are now scrap and beyond all repair and the customer has a dilemma, does he foot the bill for a new set of barrels? Or does he buy a cheap throw away gun?

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THE UK NEED A CREDIBLE LEAD SHOT ALTERNATIVE. We are now close to a deal on our Hortonium shot, we don't want to see guns abused like this.

I've seen lead bulge chokes

[holloway]

3 hours ago, Fil said:

I've seen lead bulge chokes

Exactly .