What happens when we all go electric

[12gauge82]

I think the west has missed a huge opportunity, I'm no expert, but my thoughts are as Scully said earlier with hydrogen.

China has bought up all the lithium and other rare metal producing areas around the globe. The west with it's investment in green energy could instead invest in hydrogen production powered via green energy, it would have multiple benefits including

Cutting China or any other foreign countries profiting from the UK, as oil producing nations currently do.

Create a whole new, highly skilled, high paid uk jobs sector where we could be world leaders with export potential.

Allow investment in further green tech to provide the electricity needed for hydrogen generation, further funding high pay renewables jobs for uk workers.

Deliver cheap energy and transport to all within the UK.

I appreciate it would be expensive to initiate with research and development. Hydrogen is also very explosive.

 

[Scully]

10 hours ago, discobob said:

Careful - you might have BBC Verify along to fact check your post - I have seen it on FB and it has been FC’d on there!!

So it must be “An Inconvenient Truth” 😂

Indeed. Just gave it a google out of interest; turns out the mining and processing of lithium it’s very real and extremely bad for the air quality and the environment, and takes huge amounts of energy ( fossil fuelled I assume ) to process. 
Happening mostly in S. American countries I believe. 

[armsid]

Back in 1961 the Road Research Laboratory drove three electric driverless cars down the new unopened M4 between Newbury and Reading a distance of 9 miles T cars picked up the magnetic field from a grid power cable sunk in the road and guess what the technology was shelved How far would we be now if the research had carried on. Could this technology be used now Just think drop onto a M/way no battery needed drive to Glasgow from London no battery power used and a meter in the car to pay. All being helped by using miniature Nuclear Power plants 

[Yellow Bear]

5 minutes ago, armsid said:

using miniature Nuclear Power plants

Ahhh now you have done it using the nasty N word, to the "activists" that is worse than the P word

[derbyduck]

4 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think the west has missed a huge opportunity, I'm no expert, but my thoughts are as Scully said earlier with hydrogen.

China has bought up all the lithium and other rare metal producing areas around the globe. The west with it's investment in green energy could instead invest in hydrogen production powered via green energy, it would have multiple benefits including

Cutting China or any other foreign countries profiting from the UK, as oil producing nations currently do.

Create a whole new, highly skilled, high paid uk jobs sector where we could be world leaders with export potential.

Allow investment in further green tech to provide the electricity needed for hydrogen generation, further funding high pay renewables jobs for uk workers.

Deliver cheap energy and transport to all within the UK.

I appreciate it would be expensive to initiate with research and development. Hydrogen is also very explosive.

 

Hi I've just been listening to the BBC The Inquirer , Could Hydrogen be the answer to the fuel problems ,

it seems it could work for industries like steel, glass, small industrial estates , it would not be viable to fuel cars , but could work with large truck (road trains) and boats , its worth a listen very enlightening !

just to add its on BBC Iplayer .

Edited July 30, 2023 by derbyduck

[Daz45]

On 28/07/2023 at 10:27, Fargo said:

Hope we get a government in who scrap the stupid ideas of electric vehicles 

My sentiments exactly😃

[old man]

Scrapping the stupid idea will not be on the cards due to the hugely available fund of inducements?

[Dekers]

On 28/07/2023 at 09:27, pigeon controller said:

Just thinking outside the box to the day that we all go electric, with a few questions as follows:-

Will we have a standard battery pod we can exchange at a refuelling station?
 

Will we be able to recycle the old battery ?

A recent recycling centre was opened in the Black Country and they had a fire due to batteries being lifted in woven sacks and the contact touched.

If we all charge at home at night will the heat generated in the mains stop the roads freezing?
 

Will electric cars be subjected to some form of jamming to prevent over speeding?

 

It isn't going to be ALL electric.  This is a common falacy.

That is most certainly the direction the Government seems to be pushing us, but there are other options which remain totally legal, ask Jim Radcliffe!

There are many hurdles of manufacturer and disposal of the batteries which are being pushed to one side at the moment, they are nasty things, and are nowhere near as environmentally friendly as we are being told.

Recharging is a joke, especially in very built up areas with large numbers of Terrace and High Rise properties.  And of course the electricity has to be made, currently with fossil fuels, gas and Nuclear, with a relatively small amount through wind/water/solar/etc, so that is hardly environmentally friendly either.

Wherever we end up, Electric is NOT currently the UNIVERSAL answer, there are many hurdles to be overcome yet, technology may well make it viable in future, but far too many pitfalls to make it the answer currently.   FAST chargers may well help you get back on the road quicker, but will destroy your battery pack faster!!

And lets not forget the inflated initial outlay!!!!

 

[ditchman]

10 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think the west has missed a huge opportunity, I'm no expert, but my thoughts are as Scully said earlier with hydrogen.

China has bought up all the lithium and other rare metal producing areas around the globe. The west with it's investment in green energy could instead invest in hydrogen production powered via green energy, it would have multiple benefits including

Cutting China or any other foreign countries profiting from the UK, as oil producing nations currently do.

Create a whole new, highly skilled, high paid uk jobs sector where we could be world leaders with export potential.

Allow investment in further green tech to provide the electricity needed for hydrogen generation, further funding high pay renewables jobs for uk workers.

Deliver cheap energy and transport to all within the UK.

I appreciate it would be expensive to initiate with research and development. Hydrogen is also very explosive.

 

Hydrogen in its form is not explosive......watch the zepplin BURN  in America.....hydrogen only becomes explosive when mixed with oxygen......

one of the most EXPLOSIVE ...gases when mixed with air is Acetylene.....and that is stored in millions of bottles all over the world........ 

familise yourself of the story of how the British tried to shoot down the Zepperlins during world war one.............those Zepplins took thousands of rounds of tracer and other shells and they all made it home to their familys................until the British realised that Hydrogen needs air to burn...

hydrogen tanks in cars etc could be made as just as safe as gas tanks..............lot of politics in play here....as i said before Vauxhall in the 70's in California were running around quite happily with Hydrogen............then all of a sudden the experiment was wiped from the face of the earth

OIL LOBBY  ???????????

Edited July 30, 2023 by ditchman

[JohnfromUK]

We all have to do our bit for the planet

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, ditchman said:

Hydrogen in its form is not explosive......watch the zepplin BURN  in America.....hydrogen only becomes explosive when mixed with oxygen......

one of the most EXPLOSIVE ...gases when mixed with air is Acetylene.....and that is stored in millions of bottles all over the world........ 

familise yourself of the story of how the British tried to shoot down the Zepperlins during world war one.............those Zepplins took thousands of rounds of tracer and other shells and they all made it home to their familys................until the British realised that Hydrogen needs air to burn...

hydrogen tanks in cars etc could be made as just as safe as gas tanks..............lot of politics in play here....as i said before Vauxhall in the 70's in California were running around quite happily with Hydrogen............then all of a sudden the experiment was wiped from the face of the earth

OIL LOBBY  ???????????

I stand corrected, thank you for the lesson and I'll take a look into ww1 zeppelins, sounds fascinating 👍

[ditchman]

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I stand corrected, thank you for the lesson and I'll take a look into ww1 zeppelins, sounds fascinating 👍

there was a documentory made a few years ago ..about the shooting down of zepperlins at the beginning of the 1st world war..........

and im not sure but i think PC pigeon controller can confirm the experiments into hydrogen by vauxhall...as he was in the car industry i believe....

[Dekers]

James May: Could hydrogen cars be a better green alternative than electric? - Bing video

[discobob]

I don't think anybody has mentioned The Freemantle Highway that is currently been on Fire for a week now - carrying 500 electric cars.  A ship last year had the same and then once the fire was out and they was towing it to port - the hull integrity collapsed and it went to the bottom.

Also, in Aus, 2 firefighters have ended up with Cobalt poisoning after fighting an EV ban.

Very nasty things...

 

[JohnfromUK]

24 minutes ago, discobob said:

I don't think anybody has mentioned The Freemantle Highway that is currently been on Fire for a week now - carrying 500 electric cars.

There is another thread;

In fact, the number of electric vehicles on the Freemantle was initially reported as around 25, but has now been revised to around 500.

 

[discobob]

19 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

There is another thread;

In fact, the number of electric vehicles on the Freemantle was initially reported as around 25, but has now been revised to around 500.

 

Duhhh 😁 - I commented on it as well - what a weekend does to you!!! - but I was referring more to this particular thread tbh.. 👍

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, discobob said:

Duhhh 😁 - I commented on it as well - what a weekend does to you!!! - but I was referring more to this particular thread tbh. 👍

 ...... and in fact the quantity of electrics on the Freemantle has been revised with now 20x as many as originally reported.

These fires are massively expensive; several thousand vehicles, a specialist transporter ship, emergency services/salvage ...... it's a BIG list and must cost millions, let alone the environmental cost. 

Will they be able to get insurance in future - and if so how much extra will it cost?

I assume traditional 'oil' powered cars would be shipped with minimal fuel - and the fire can also be fought with on board facilities/withhiolding air and contained to a small area of the ship.  Fires involving batteries are almost unfightable and have to be left until the fuel (lithium in the batteries) is all exhausted.  The heat generated is enormous and will mean in effect that one vehicle initiating a fire is likely to result in the loss of the whole vessel and it's cargo.

[discobob]

12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I assume traditional 'oil' powered cars would be shipped with minimal fuel

apparently 5 litres - 4 by the time they get on the boat - the thing is petro-chemical fires, like most other fires, need oxygen to burn. Lithium generates its own gasses to fuel itself - even underwater...

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, discobob said:

apparently 5 litres - 4 by the time they get on the boat - the thing is petro-chemical fires, like most other fires, need oxygen to burn. Lithium generates its own gasses to fuel itself - even underwater...

👍

[Scully]

Due to the fire recently in which a mother and at least one child was killed, caused by the battery on an e-bike, a friend of the OH whom lives in social housing has been informed by the council she must not use domestic electricity to charge her mobility scooter! She has asked how she is expected to charge it, and what alternative means she can use to get about in the meantime. 

This was over a week ago and has received no reply, so is using her domestic electricity supply. 🤷‍♂️

[discobob]

49 minutes ago, Scully said:

Due to the fire recently in which a mother and at least one child was killed, caused by the battery on an e-bike, a friend of the OH whom lives in social housing has been informed by the council she must not use domestic electricity to charge her mobility scooter! She has asked how she is expected to charge it, and what alternative means she can use to get about in the meantime. 

This was over a week ago and has received no reply, so is using her domestic electricity supply. 🤷‍♂️

Typical knee jerk reaction - I bet her mobility scooter uses standard batteries, not LIPO's where these are a risk. There is a guy on YouTube who does Apple repairs down to component level and he had some videos of him going into New York on his ebike during the plandemic of unknown origins - and also a video showing his eBike going up outside his apartment

 

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, discobob said:

Typical knee jerk reaction - I bet her mobility scooter uses standard batteries, not LIPO's where these are a risk. There is a guy on YouTube who does Apple repairs down to component level and he had some videos of him going into New York on his ebike during the plandemic of unknown origins - and also a video showing his eBike going up outside his apartment

 

Indeed. I told her that her battery was of little risk as it will have been tested and approved by the relevant body, whereas a lot of those causing fires will be some untested, unapproved after market ‘add on’ of dubious origin. 
 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, discobob said:

I bet her mobility scooter uses standard batteries, not LIPO's

Most (certainly until recently) mobility scooters use lead acid batteries.  I believe some recent lightweight ones use Li-Ion, but only the most expensive models.

[discobob]

I had an Escort Mk3 - in Red - I even added a wing mirror on the passenger side!!! Well, the firewall rotted through under the battery carrier - but you could get a replacement part to be put in by a competent welder. Trouble is it turned out the guy doing it wasn't a competent welder and left it higher than original. The trouble is that I also had a taller than normal battery on the car.

That evening was in a Kebab shop queuing to get food when someone stuck their head in the door and went "anybody got a red escort - its on fire"!!

It was smoking, and I popped the bonnet and lifted it and the battery was half melted - the poles had touched the underside of the bonnet.

The owner of the kebab shop came running out with a bucket of water but I stopped him before he made it possibly worse!!

Thank god it wasn't Electric!! 🤣

[7daysinaweek]

4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

 ...... and in fact the quantity of electrics on the Freemantle has been revised with now 20x as many as originally reported.

These fires are massively expensive; several thousand vehicles, a specialist transporter ship, emergency services/salvage ...... it's a BIG list and must cost millions, let alone the environmental cost. 

Will they be able to get insurance in future - and if so how much extra will it cost?

I assume traditional 'oil' powered cars would be shipped with minimal fuel - and the fire can also be fought with on board facilities/withhiolding air and contained to a small area of the ship.  Fires involving batteries are almost unfightable and have to be left until the fuel (lithium in the batteries) is all exhausted.  The heat generated is enormous and will mean in effect that one vehicle initiating a fire is likely to result in the loss of the whole vessel and it's cargo.

Hi John

I just asked mrs 7days about the cost with something like this though I do appreciate it could greatly differ. Her previous job was a financial accountant actuary for Bibby Marine and although she left them in 2015, the costings for when one of their cargo ships went 'belly up' ran into millions upon millions. She used to sign off the payments for specialist salvage consultants they used when they had a wrecked ship or damaged cargo. I think in her thirteen years or so with them they had one or two which went down with cars and all cargo. 

One consultant they used would be jetted out of the uk and the bill for the consultant costs alone could run into tens if not hundreds of thousands just for them to assess the damage and what was salvageable. The numbers were simply eye watering. Insurance costs from her mind for a medium to large container ship could be into the low millions to tens of millions depending on the type and size of cargo. depending on the nautical geographical area and risks associated with that said, it was a good way back then and surely any costs now must be a great deal more.

 

Just aside my brother in law is a chief officer on a oil and LNG supertanker that sails out of the Gulf states, he tells me that the ship fuel cost one way trip out and into Toykyo alone is about 1.5 million dollars for LNG and is a lot more for the 'black gold' (crude) as they call it. His company has a ship a day that arrives in Toykyo.