Are we overthinking our decoy layout

[Fellside]

Last week I set up on some late spring barley stubble. The last field in my area to be harvested. There was a great background for the hide - in the form of a thick riverside wood. It was shadowy and shaded from the sun, perfect. After quickly setting up the hide, I placed out my usual ‘starter’ pattern of 18 decoys arranged in a loose ‘u’ shape. This normally works perfectly well to get things going. I only had 3 hours to shoot as other duties would drag me away. After all the dashing about I  settling in to my hide seat and stared out at an empty blue sky, a vast carpet of golden stubble and the high sides of a pretty valley. It was great just to be out there. After 5 minutes of anticipation a cautious first bird circled twice before finally presenting as a long crosser out beyond the decoys. Not committed but in range. Fortunately I hit him. I was keen to use it for my flapper - to get some movement going. With this marvellous little device working well, it pulled in a few more high passing birds. The birds weren’t decoying well however - lured but not really going for it. While I was certainly under a flight line, they had their long haul suitcases packed and were heading somewhere else! I didn’t mind too much as this made for great challenging shots when (and if!) they did turn off course to investigate. I certainly witnessed their best airborne acrobatics shall we say, helped by the wind. Half an out before the final whistle I had managed about 20 birds, which I was more than happy with, especially as the shooting had been exhilarating at times.

Here’s the strange thing however. After bringing my car back from the far field corner, I started packing up and went through my usual routine of gathering the shot birds in to loose heaps of 10, ready to lift in to my vehicle. So I had 2 heaps. The ‘U’ shape of plastic shell backs were still out. There was also an odd shot feral lying about. Then suddenly as I was just about to gather the first few plastic decoys, pigeons began trying to land near me while I was pottering about in the field. With just a few minutes left before I really had to dash off, I quickly parked the car along the field edge, and jumped back in to the hide. In the few remaining minutes, I shot a further 10 birds. These weren’t the former long tricky shots at birds not decoying well.  They were trying to land near (or even on) the 2 heaps of dead birds….! Some of these dead birds were of course randomly lying belly up, usually considered a big no no. It leads me to ponder, ‘are we overthinking our decoy layouts’? In all my years I’ve never seen such a sudden switch of commitment - especially to 2 heaps of dead birds…..?!

[marsh man]

A lovely detailed report on your short but very succesful session on the Pigeons , if we knew the answers to these odd weired occasions we would know exactly the time when your situation would work , but in all honestly , we don't know and in a way it's a good job we don't as we would be more clever than the Pigeons are , you say they were not responding that well to your normal set up of 18 decoys and then when one drop out after being hit half way across the field you will often get a Pigeon or two drop into the dead one Pigeon while ignoring a well placed set up , why this should be ? , God , ( or  the Pigeon ) only knows .    MM

[Centrepin]

I've been experimenting this year due to being unable to carry weight any more, either no decoys or maybe 3 half shells max. Some days it works, some days I fail miserably. 

The one thing that consistently works is a flapper once i have the first bird. I also use a max of 5 cradles sometimes, depending on distance to walk.

If only we knew why as MM says we'd know as much as a pigeon. 

 

[marsh man]

32 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

I've been experimenting this year due to being unable to carry weight any more, either no decoys or maybe 3 half shells max. Some days it works, some days I fail miserably. 

The one thing that consistently works is a flapper once i have the first bird. I also use a max of 5 cradles sometimes, depending on distance to walk.

If only we knew why as MM says we'd know as much as a pigeon. 

 

You might well be right when it comes to flappers , some of the Pigeon shooters I know are now saying they use the flapper with far better results  than the magnets , certainly a lot lighter and the ones I have seen in use also look more realistic . 

[yickdaz]

This was the case for me on sat  it was overcast and not boiling hot I normally shoot about 10 then  fetch them in  and put them in the shade under a net  on hot sunny days  so  I left the birds as they fell i had about 100 dead birds scattered all over the place I could see at least 4 belly up in the decoys  made no difference at all they still came in and they wasn't all young birds either that came in 

[marsh man]

12 minutes ago, yickdaz said:

This was the case for me on sat  it was overcast and not boiling hot I normally shoot about 10 then  fetch them in  and put them in the shade under a net  on hot sunny days  so  I left the birds as they fell i had about 100 dead birds scattered all over the place I could see at least 4 belly up in the decoys  made no difference at all they still came in and they wasn't all young birds either that came in 

Very interesting statement from a man who is hands on and know what he is talking about when it come to Pigeon shooting , if the G L ever limited a person to only use one battery devise , What would be the one you would use , a magnet or a flapper ?    MM

[yickdaz]

34 minutes ago, marsh man said:

Very interesting statement from a man who is hands on and know what he is talking about when it come to Pigeon shooting , if the G L ever limited a person to only use one battery devise , What would be the one you would use , a magnet or a flapper ?    MM

Magnet 100%

[Centrepin]

42 minutes ago, marsh man said:

You might well be right when it comes to flappers , some of the Pigeon shooters I know are now saying they use the flapper with far better results  than the magnets , certainly a lot lighter and the ones I have seen in use also look more realistic . 

Mine is 3 secs flap, 4 secs rest.

You can speed up the flap. I find a slow flap better for pigeons, but am prepared to alter to suit.

As I said previously, with me it's all about what I can carry. It's essentials only regardless of need. Recce is absolutely essential as is position as I often use no net.

[Gas seal]

Hi Fellside yes a lot of over thinking and more types of different decoys and hides about. You got the place and timing on the day that was all you needed. I don’t use magnets flapper or plastic decoys. I was asked not to show film on the internet, we made a few films out shooting for my friends family a few years ago I could send them to you if you like. You reminded me of them with your story and I just watched them. I’ve noticed more magnet types of decoys, a couple of shooters had three going with four decoys on each one, and flapping pigeons in with other decoys. It looked like a fairground in a field. 

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Fellside yes a lot of over thinking and more types of different decoys and hides about. You got the place and timing on the day that was all you needed. I don’t use magnets flapper or plastic decoys. I was asked not to show film on the internet, we made a few films out shooting for my friends family a few years ago I could send them to you if you like. You reminded me of them with your story and I just watched them. I’ve noticed more magnet types of decoys, a couple of shooters had three going with four decoys on each one, and flapping pigeons in with other decoys. It looked like a fairground in a field. 

🤣😂 Yes indeed - fairground in a field. Like it. I only use one flapper these days . That’s the nearest I get to a ‘fairground’. 
 

 

[Spr1985]

@fellside i‘m due to go out Sunday, I use different patterns in different scenarios so I may well put them out in two tight groups to simulate your two heaps of dead birds and report back, nothing to lose I never really shoot that many anyway 🤣

[pigeon controller]

Some interesting comments, it may be that as you packed up you had the reverse flightline start and present you with birds. Years ago we had a manual flapper system which had three birds on it and would pull birds off line across the field. The only problem was that the dogs would wreck the strings and make it impossible to use. 
If you see my normal presentation it is very uniform and I’ve had birds try and join them when I’m picking up additional birds. Flappers are effective in pulling birds they also spook birds when they flap as the birds overfly. If you have the opportunity to watch birds feed and flock you will see that they do all sort of things and also create all sorts of patterns.

[Fellside]

20 minutes ago, pigeon controller said:

Some interesting comments, it may be that as you packed up you had the reverse flightline start and present you with birds. Years ago we had a manual flapper system which had three birds on it and would pull birds off line across the field. The only problem was that the dogs would wreck the strings and make it impossible to use. 
If you see my normal presentation it is very uniform and I’ve had birds try and join them when I’m picking up additional birds. Flappers are effective in pulling birds they also spook birds when they flap as the birds overfly. If you have the opportunity to watch birds feed and flock you will see that they do all sort of things and also create all sorts of patterns.

I’ve had them land right beside the flapper and just sit there looking at it. Honestly never seen them noticeably spooked by it.  Had more variable reaction with a magnet, sometimes pulling them in from a long way off and they commit. Other times they almost come to within shot, then flare off like a scolded cat, seemingly terrified. So much unpredictable behaviour. Sometimes there are obvious answers and yet at other times this great enigmatic bird just baffles us. I suppose that’s all part of the charm and fascination. Why they were so committed to 2 heaps of dead birds…….? Who will ever know? 

[Krico woodcock]

It all depends , if they are mad to feed they will decoy with you in full sight,  earlier in a day they might be a bit skittish,  then as evening comes  closer and they are using said field they usually decoy proper txt book style,  and can become oblivious to danger. Have seen it many a time,  

[Wilts#Dave]

On 19/09/2023 at 15:48, yickdaz said:

Magnet 100%

Same. Personally never found the flapper particularly effective, although I’m trying to get hold of a couple of ff6 to give them another go. 
On the odd occasion I’ve had the magnet pack up on a busy ish day the action has always noticeably slowed up! 
Also as you mentioned in your previous post, every time this year when I’ve shot bags over 100 I’ve only picked up once or twice initially to get 20/30 out on cradles etc and left the rest scattered all over the place, belly up etc and they seemed to like it better if anything especially towards the end of the day when they’re super keen to feed. 

[yickdaz]

I've had a ff5 flapper for 6 years and  obviously tried it over that time  but I always ended up setting up the rotary course the flappers work but in my opinion the rotary wins hands down had so many days when I couldn't get pigeons to decoy  untill I got the rotary going and ended up with 3 figure bags which I  know I wouldn't of had without it

[Gas seal]

Hi decoys spinning on magnets can look like birds landing or birds taking off from the ground, this is why they are spooked . I have a couple of magnets they have been in my shed for about twenty five years, a heavy tube two fibre glass arms and a wiper motor, and run on a car battery at the time. We had a lot more pigeon shooters then , and we all knew each other, all with a couple of heavy magnets batteries and wheel barrows. As marshman said one pigeon dropped in the field and pigeons land with it, the same as corvids or geese. The gadget I have used for flight lines is the spinning wing on a long extended rod I’ve seen pigeons flying at it on very windy days. It works on pigeon flight lines to rape fields it very light and if it doesn’t work it’s light weight and easy to take down. I will set it 50 yards or more behind and it will pull the flighting pigeons from a distance towards it . Some fields I can only shoot one way and I will put decoys out in the field behind me , the way I can’t shoot, and shoot the pigeons with my back to the decoys ,before they start twisting and turning anywhere near the decoys. I’ve found over the years to try different ways to shoot and the older I get  the easier I can make it the better. 

 

[Fellside]

Thanks for the comments folks - interesting to learn of other people’s experiences. 

[Gas seal]

Hi Fellside I’ve just noticed l wrote that the decoy l used for flighting pigeons is a ‘spinning wing ‘ it’s called reel wing decoy. It’s like a kite on fishing line flying from a 10 foot telescope pole spinning up and down in the wind . It’s made of a type of lightweight strong foam . It will work on standing crops with a shot pole but it needs to be quite windy.

[Fellside]

18 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Fellside I’ve just noticed l wrote that the decoy l used for flighting pigeons is a ‘spinning wing ‘ it’s called reel wing decoy. It’s like a kite on fishing line flying from a 10 foot telescope pole spinning up and down in the wind . It’s made of a type of lightweight strong foam . It will work on standing crops with a shot pole but it needs to be quite windy.

Thank you 👍

[TIGHTCHOKE]

To the OP's initial question, YES!

[Scully]

I think we possibly are; I mean, there’s no pattern there at all on a field of feeding pigeons, until we set one up! 
It’s true that movement in a large flock of moving and feeding birds attracts others, but what attracted them in the first place?
I’ve seen birds coming in when we’ve been setting up in plain view, but I can only surmise that is some sort of feeding frenzy I think, and I’ve seen birds shy away from a previously busy field shortly after I’ve scattered them to set up. 🤷‍♂️

You can decoy with just two deeks in a pattern if the birds are there, inquisitive and hungry enough, and rightly or wrongly think movement is more important than pattern.
Anyhow, what do I know? I’m no expert. 

[marsh man]

We have come a long way since Archie Coates made Pigeon shooting popular , or have we ? , I have never been into all these fancy pattens that we were led to believe was the right way to go about things , like a V shape , U shape , L shape and leave gaps in the middle where the Pigeons can land , like everything else to do with decoying Pigeons they will all work at TIMES , his set up towards the end of his days was walking out about 20 yds from his hide position  , tipping out his decoys ( mainly dead pigeons )  chucking them in all different directions and then walk over and set each one up , you can make this method slightly easier by chucking the birds dead in front of your hide or more to the right or left depending on wind direction and how you prefer shooting if you stand up or shoot sitting down like I do  , this would hopefully be the set up Pigeons would expect to see when they enter the field , although you have got to get the position right before you put your decoys out in the first place if not you will be up against it to make anything work .  MM

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Over bloody thinking is affecting just about every part of our lives these days!    

[Gas seal]

Hi it seems like a lot of pigeon shooters like to set up under or near flight lines and try to get pigeons to decoy where they don’t want to feed with magnets and flapping decoys. A wildfowler flighting geese would be under them l don’t think they would set decoys to shoot them unless he went to where they were feeding. Flighting pigeons could be going to feed, fed and going to rest, or most of the year to and from nesting. I agree with Scully movement is important, not the decoys but the shooter should move under the pigeons. I would shoot under the flight line or go to the field the pigeons are going to . 
 Hi marsh man yes your right all ways of shooting pigeons work at times. Just like any shooting it’s about time of day ,or night ,and time of year. Fellside had his timing right when he had finished decoying for the day after trying to pull pigeons from a flight line. Other shooters mentioned pigeons in a feeding frenzy , or pigeons coming to decoys all of a sudden, it’s the way they feed more so on rape fields flying over each other to the front of the flock, or pigeon feeding in tramlines on ripening crops. How many shooters notice on a ‘good day’ that the birds crops are empty or how many have milk glands the condition of the birds ( or have garden birds seeds in their crops) . When we had more pigeon shooters some years ago these were the things we talked about not about cartridges or different decoys ( until the magnets came out). We never talked about how many we shot only when very large numbers were shot in one go.