A few facts.

[Scully]

A brief look at how it is, rather than how some think it should be, whether clay or live quarry. 
Most guns these days, and specifically game guns of any derivative, come with an auto safe. 
‘Clays’: After un slipping the gun and taking it for granted everyone knows the gun is empty as they sweep the muzzles through everyone at thigh level while they wonder what to do with the slip, then break the gun before stepping into the cage.
Some clay shooters ( and most game shots ) load two cartridges and close their gun inside the cage, muzzles down, then close the gun stock up, which then means they have a loaded gun inside the cage, which also means they have to see-saw the gun or step well back ( but not too far back as they’re aware they are now in charge of a loaded gun inside the cage and the folk watching are aware of this also ) to avoid ‘dinging’ those barrels on the horizontal bar; most make an awkward hashed attempt at both.
I break my gun while it’s still in its slip so everyone can see it’s safe and there’s no need to sweep anyone. I step into the cage and hang the barrels over the horizontal bar in the cage, load two cartridges, swing the barrels up to close the gun and that’s it. I keep those barrels outside the cage until I’ve finished shooting. 
In both instances if an auto safe is present, it is slipped forward at this point whether starting gun up or down. 
‘Game’: The vast majority of shooters once at a peg, unslip their gun and oft as not repeat the process initially outlined above, some shove the still unbroken gun into the crook of their elbow while they sort out the slip. 
Don’t worry about zipping up the empty slip if it’s raining, it’s pointless because the inside is going to get wet as soon as you return your wet gun to it. Yes, I have pointed this out on numerous occasions. 
They then load two cartridges and close the gun after which most sxs shooters return the gun to their elbow. This can be uncomfortable with an OU, so what I do is stand at the peg with the gun broken, muzzles resting in my toe. 
When a bird comes into view the sxs is swung up while the safety is slipped and the shot taken. Never and I mean NEVER, have I seen that safety slipped back on if a second bird doesn’t appear. Like me, that gun is held at the ready, muzzles up waiting until the gun decides it’s worth ejecting the spent case and reloading. 
In the grouse butts a single gun loading for himself never lowers those barrels below the horizontal because that is the height of the butt wall, and you are then in the same predicament as outlined in ‘Clays’. There is no ‘stock to barrels’ in a butt. Even loaders in my experience don’t reload that gun inside the butt. 
There is no situation in ANY discipline of shooting where the safety ( auto or otherwise ) plays any part in preventing anyone being shot, simply because there is no situation where it is necessary for a loaded shotgun to be pointed at someone with your finger on the trigger.
People get shot because someone had their finger on the trigger while pointing a loaded gun at another person.  
As an aside, the use of self loading shotguns would make driven shooting so much safer at least as far as muzzle awareness and especially reloading goes, but ‘tradition’ forbids it. Go figure. 🤷‍♂️

[London Best]

People get shot because someone had their finger on the trigger while pointing a loaded gun at another person.

100% correct.

But there is just a chance that a locked trigger may prevent that idiot shooting somebody.

[enfieldspares]

26 minutes ago, Scully said:

Never and I mean NEVER, have I seen that safety slipped back on if a second bird doesn’t appear.

Single gunning I'd agree. But I take it you've never seen a pair of guns being used? Or used a pair? Always, always, always if only the one barrel is fired and the gun is passed to the loader (regardless of if the other one is taken) the safety should be put on. Anyway here's Ian Coley in a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88Ndf6Oqr6g

Edited October 4, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Scully]

Just now, enfieldspares said:

I take it you've never seen a pair of guns being used? Always, always, always if only the one barrel is fired and the gun is passed to the loader regardless of if the other gun us take) the safety should be put on. 

Yes, have seen it many a time, and once upon a long time ago ( in another life it seems now )  a Brigadier and I took turns loading for each other both stuffing and double gunning. The use of a safety wasn’t of any concern to either of us. 
Can you explain what purpose is served at the point you say the safety ‘should be put on’ ? 

10 minutes ago, London Best said:

 

But there is just a chance that a locked trigger may prevent that idiot shooting somebody.

What scenario did you have in mind where such a circumstance would present itself, bearing in mind the ‘idiot’ in this situation had the presence of mind to apply the safety if it wasn’t an auto safe? 

[McSpredder]

What’s all this?   Driven game, grouse butts, double gunning, without any mention of walking up, roost shooting, decoying, wildfowling?   Has Scully joined the gentry?

Returning to the serious point, I am sure at least one old book mentioned auto safety catches in relation to the risk of triggers catching on a twig (yes, ought to have unloaded before pushing through that sort of vegetation) or on those knobbly leather buttons that were once commonly found on tweed jackets.    Presumably such accidental discharges have occurred, but do any PW members know of actual instances?

[udderlyoffroad]

Am I missing something?  If you're double-gunning, just don't hand a gun with one still up the pipe back to the loader.  You'll be quicker if a flush of bird appears to take one shot then get the other gun with two up the spout, surely?

51 minutes ago, Scully said:

As an aside, the use of self loading shotguns would make driven shooting so much safer at least as far as muzzle awareness and especially reloading goes, but ‘tradition’ forbids it. Go figure. 🤷‍♂️

With an O/U or SxS you can at least tell from a distance whether the gun is broken - useful if you don't entirely know or trust your neighbouring peg.

 

[Scully]

14 minutes ago, McSpredder said:

What’s all this?   Driven game, grouse butts, double gunning, without any mention of walking up, roost shooting, decoying, wildfowling?   Has Scully joined the gentry?

Returning to the serious point, I am sure at least one old book mentioned auto safety catches in relation to the risk of triggers catching on a twig (yes, ought to have unloaded before pushing through that sort of vegetation) or on those knobbly leather buttons that were once commonly found on tweed jackets.    Presumably such accidental discharges have occurred, but do any PW members know of actual instances?

🙂 Noooo, far from it! I assumed safe shooting was self explanatory regarding those disciplines and didn’t need mentioning. 👍

However….walked up, gun broken. If you’re using a self loader then suit yourself. A mate carries his loaded but chamber empty, which is how I carry my pump. There are various methods by which you can safely carry such firearms, but if I’m honest I don’t mind an experienced gun carrying either with one up the spout as long as he’s muzzle aware and no finger on a trigger. 

Roost shooting, basically the same as on a peg even with a self loader. 
Decoying, same as on a peg, even with a self loader. 
No safeties involved, auto or otherwise. 
I don’t do any wildfowling. 🙂

[mpmilo]

The way I was taught,

Game shooting  Wood to metal. I have always done this ( even after seeing the gun 2 pegs away empty the left barrel into his lab when shutting his gun, he swore safety was on  ) That was some old s/s which didnt seem to be in the best of health, a bit like his dog.

Clay shooting,  Metal to wood, when I am in the cage ,downrange is my safe zone and if on a man made base ie concrete or slabs. Why would you want to shut your gun with your barrels pointing at that. On my clay gun the safety is never on.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by mpmilo

[enfieldspares]

58 minutes ago, Scully said:

Can you explain what purpose is served at the point you say the safety ‘should be put on’ ? 

 

In case one or other fumbles the change over and, as the gun falls to the ground their fingers (or any other object capable of tripping it such as MCSPREDDER and his knobbly button) enters the trigger. If you've just let your expensive Purdey start to fall onto a gravel bottomed grouse butt instinct says you'll reach out and grab at it. For as you will know having done it it may not always be the right barrel and the front trigger that is the one fired (if but one shot is taken) so as on a single trigger SBS like my Boss or single trigger O/U had there's room aplenty for something to enter the guard of a dropped gun.

Edited October 4, 2023 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

19 minutes ago, McSpredder said:

 

Returning to the serious point, I am sure at least one old book mentioned auto safety catches in relation to the risk of triggers catching on a twig (yes, ought to have unloaded before pushing through that sort of vegetation) or on those knobbly leather buttons that were once commonly found on tweed jackets.    Presumably such accidental discharges have occurred, but do any PW members know of actual instances?

Not specifically a twig, but I have seen a similar occurrence. 
I can relate three instances of negligent discharge. 
1) Many years ago, on a farm shoot a young man fired his gun accidentally, at a time it really should not even have been loaded. When questioned by others he said the trigger had become caught in his belt. I think it was actually in an empty loop of his cartridge belt. Obviously, the safety catch was not applied.  Go figure? Fortunately, no harm done.
2) A teenager with little experience once put a charge of shot into the ground next to my foot. Right next to my foot. Why was his finger even on the trigger? Again, no harm done, but I never went near him again.
3) A beater on a local shoot, whom I had previously noticed always loaded his gun and immediately slip the safety off, and then hook his finger round the trigger, anxious for a shot, was stood next to a friend of mine on an end of season walk and stand day. A couple of yards in front of him he had sat his 2 year old black Labrador bitch, newly trained and on her first day out with him shooting. Pheasants began to flush and the dog sat steady. Until my friend, standing on this man’s left, shot a bird. The young dog broke and ran past it’s owner a couple of yards to his left. He instinctively shouted “No!” and turned to his left toward the dog. With his finger, as usual, through the trigger the gun fired as he turned and blew the guts out of the dog. The yelping and howling was terrible, until my friend rushed over, assessed the damage to the poor dog and put another shot into her. The beater gave up his gun and never came out again. 
Over the years I have become very choosy about my shooting companions.

[marsh man]

13 minutes ago, London Best said:

Not specifically a twig, but I have seen a similar occurrence. 
I can relate three instances of negligent discharge. 
1) Many years ago, on a farm shoot a young man fired his gun accidentally, at a time it really should not even have been loaded. When questioned by others he said the trigger had become caught in his belt. I think it was actually in an empty loop of his cartridge belt. Obviously, the safety catch was not applied.  Go figure? Fortunately, no harm done.
2) A teenager with little experience once put a charge of shot into the ground next to my foot. Right next to my foot. Why was his finger even on the trigger? Again, no harm done, but I never went near him again.
3) A beater on a local shoot, whom I had previously noticed always loaded his gun and immediately slip the safety off, and then hook his finger round the trigger, anxious for a shot, was stood next to a friend of mine on an end of season walk and stand day. A couple of yards in front of him he had sat his 2 year old black Labrador bitch, newly trained and on her first day out with him shooting. Pheasants began to flush and the dog sat steady. Until my friend, standing on this man’s left, shot a bird. The young dog broke and ran past it’s owner a couple of yards to his left. He instinctively shouted “No!” and turned to his left toward the dog. With his finger, as usual, through the trigger the gun fired as he turned and blew the guts out of the dog. The yelping and howling was terrible, until my friend rushed over, assessed the damage to the poor dog and put another shot into her. The beater gave up his gun and never came out again. 
Over the years I have become very choosy about my shooting companions.

If I am honest I have very few shooting companions , not that I am anti social or anything like that, it is because I have spent a lifetime being by myself and my dog , I prefer it this way and have no one to worry about , the odd time I have had two in a Pigeon hide I insist that only one person shoot at any one time no matter how many Pigeons come into the decoys .

Another thing I advoid is walking through a wood on beaters day when the keeper say the walking guns can take any cock bird going back , I am far to old to compete with younger guns and I have always taken a jumped up bird where I wanted to take it and not to compete with other people out shooting .

Like you I have seen plenty of near misses with guns going off when the person holding said he didn't touch the twrigger , when I have put the guns onto there pegs I have always told them to keep the guns in the case until you get onto the peg and on no account fire at any low birds as the beaters will use some colourfull words and don't turn around and shoot as the picker ups will be watching what is going on , most of the teams you know and you can tell them in a light hearted manner , but some unknown teams might want keeping an eye on , like I say , touch wood we have only had near misses but there is a very fine line between a near miss and a serious injury or even a fatility .

[Scully]

58 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

In case one or other fumbles the change over and, as the gun falls to the ground their fingers (or any other object capable of tripping it such as MCSPREDDER and his knobbly button) enters the trigger. If you've just let your expensive Purdey start to fall onto a gravel bottomed grouse butt instinct says you'll reach out and grab at it. For as you will know having done it it may not always be the right barrel and the front trigger that is the one fired (if but one shot is taken) so as on a single trigger SBS like my Boss or single trigger O/U had there's room aplenty for something to enter the guard of a dropped gun.

Most of my double gunning has been with OU’s. I have nothing against sxs’s as such, and while they’re easier to load ( wider gape ) I much prefer the more substantial fore-end of a OU; more to get a hold of and not as hot! Sxs’s with a leather fore-end are ok but I still prefer a OU. 
Can’t say I’ve ever dropped one, clanged a couple of barrels when we got out of synch, but no damage done. 
Personally I’d be more concerned about a gun butt hitting the floor than a finger in a trigger guard. 

[enfieldspares]

9 minutes ago, Scully said:

Most of my double gunning has been with OU’s. I have nothing against sxs’s as such, and while they’re easier to load ( wider gape ) I much prefer the more substantial fore-end of a OU; more to get a hold of and not as hot! Sxs’s with a leather fore-end are ok but I still prefer a OU. 
Can’t say I’ve ever dropped one, clanged a couple of barrels when we got out of synch, but no damage done. 
Personally I’d be more concerned about a gun butt hitting the floor than a finger in a trigger guard. 

🙂 👍

Edited October 4, 2023 by enfieldspares

[39TDS]

My guns have hammers not safety catches. I don't point them at people, loaded or not but then again it is extremely rare for there to be any other people anyway. (I still don't point my barrels in their direction)

[Pushandpull]

Muzzle awareness is all important. When I was about 14 I was walking down a track with the farm .410 (an old and decrepit thing) tucked under my left arm. No hands anywhere near it. It discharged just as my right foot was swung farthest forward. The heel of my shoe was shattered while a bloody and blackened groove was cut down the inside of my heel. Another inch and I would have lost my foot. My uncle whom owned it got a new .410 while I learned a lesson for life.

[DUNKS]

Fine I read and understand the comments but still I need explaining. On a peg obviously shooting to the front with other guns either side. Barrels down and close the gun wood to metal as one should. DO YOU NOT THEN SWING THE GUN THROUGH THE BEATERS allbeit with the safety on of course and your thumb sliding it off?

One of the stands at the clay ground I use shoots over water and the far bank is 120 yards away the disturbance as the shot hits the water near the far bank is serious. I would not like to be in the way. Or are the beaters always further away than this.

[B725]

Depending on the terrain the beaters may appear just a few yards in front of you. Ultimately it's your responsibility to ensure their safety and others around you ,if that's not possible then you should not have a gun in your hand. It's the same when passing a closed gun to someone or standing it in a rack etc I always without fail show someone it empty. 

[London Best]

42 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

Fine I read and understand the comments but still I need explaining. On a peg obviously shooting to the front with other guns either side. Barrels down and close the gun wood to metal as one should. DO YOU NOT THEN SWING THE GUN THROUGH THE BEATERS allbeit with the safety on of course and your thumb sliding it off?

One of the stands at the clay ground I use shoots over water and the far bank is 120 yards away the disturbance as the shot hits the water near the far bank is serious. I would not like to be in the way. Or are the beaters always further away than this.

Generally, the man standing at his peg on a driven day should load as you describe and then lift the gun barrels up through a safe arc until the barrels point at the sky and wait in this position. Early in the drive the beater’s are not usually in any danger if the barrels are raised through an arc pointing in their direction as they will normally be far enough away (up to 1 1/2 miles or more on a grouse moor). When the drive is nearing it’s end, more care is needed as the beater’s will be closer and the gun should be lifted in a different direction, even, if necessary, by the shooter turning to face the rear.

[McSpredder]

For the benefit of those who have a pair of guns and a loader, here is an extract from “The Shotgun”, by T D S Purdey and Capt J A Purdey (first published 1936).

I am definitely not qualified to comment further, as I have no personal experience of double gunning, or of top quality hardware.   I hesitate to question the words of Messrs Purdey, but I would have thought that if one barrel had been fired, the other lock would still be cocked, regardless of the position of the safety catch.  

The gun I generally use would be better described as “Eiber Unadorned” rather than “London Best” (an AYA No3 magnum, with a beavertail to prevent the left hand from getting too hot).    However, I did in student days (mid 1960s) possess a tweed sports jacket with knobbly leather buttons.

[London Best]

Quite correct, the lock would still be cocked. 
I think when that was written (1930’s) the term ‘cocked gun’ was a throwback to he hammer gun days,

[Scully]

3 hours ago, DUNKS said:

Fine I read and understand the comments but still I need explaining. On a peg obviously shooting to the front with other guns either side. Barrels down and close the gun wood to metal as one should. DO YOU NOT THEN SWING THE GUN THROUGH THE BEATERS allbeit with the safety on of course and your thumb sliding it off?

One of the stands at the clay ground I use shoots over water and the far bank is 120 yards away the disturbance as the shot hits the water near the far bank is serious. I would not like to be in the way. Or are the beaters always further away than this.

Most beaters are a long way off on a big driven day, when the birds first appear and they are used to being spattered with falling shot; don’t worry about it, it’s harmless. 
What they don’t like is horizontal shot, which happens mostly on the moors as they get closer to the butts. 
You won’t find any gun turning his back to reload or do anything else on a busy peg, whether upland or lowland; their full attention is on the birds, which is why there are ‘stops’ at each side of a butt. 
Their focus is 100% on the quarry; I have seen loaders duck as their gun swings through them. 
 

[Old farrier]

46 minutes ago, Scully said:

Most beaters are a long way off on a big driven day, when the birds first appear and they are used to being spattered with falling shot; don’t worry about it, it’s harmless. 
What they don’t like is horizontal shot, which happens mostly on the moors as they get closer to the butts. 
You won’t find any gun turning his back to reload or do anything else on a busy peg, whether upland or lowland; their full attention is on the birds, which is why there are ‘stops’ at each side of a butt. 
Their focus is 100% on the quarry; I have seen loaders duck as their gun swings through them. 
 

Things are changing falling lead shot has never been a problem for me 

however some of the non toxic (steel) is very sharp and consistently larger than the traditional 1 oz of 6/7 normally used so beaters should beware of the falling shot areas 

the falling non toxic is as yet a unknown area 

[Scully]

13 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Things are changing falling lead shot has never been a problem for me 

however some of the non toxic (steel) is very sharp and consistently larger than the traditional 1 oz of 6/7 normally used so beaters should beware of the falling shot areas 

the falling non toxic is as yet a unknown area 

Me neither. Haven’t experienced falling steel shot…..as far as I know anyhow! 
I know some guns have been using steel on the BIG shoot, so maybe I have? 🙂

[marsh man]

Falling shot amonst beaters might well be harmless , but I don't think many shooters know exactly how far shot will travel fired lets say a 45 degree angle and if the wind behind it increase the distance ? , I can remember one time where I put the guns out and then walked back behind them to have a yarn with one of the pickers uppers , I can't say exactly how far we were behind the guns but I can honestly say you would not think that lead shot would travel half the distance let alone where we were standing , the drive started and one of the guns took a Partridge in front the bird was hit and he turned round and dropped it with his second barrel and a very good shot it was in the bargain , we didn't think no more of it until a couple of seconds later a piece of shot hit me right on my ear lobe , it didn't bleed or anything but stung a fair bit for most of the day , if it had been in the eye I am sure it would had been a trip to the A and E , as it was no harm was done and we never mentioned it to the guns .

[Red696]

I’ve been through several gun safety lectures for different types of firearms and each has had their own unique set of rules, with the exception of two things:

Muzzle down range at all times

Finger off the trigger until it’s time to take a shot

 

For me the target / type of shoot/ species etc is irrelevant to gun safety, behaviour is the important factor.  I’m no fan of auto safeties and remove them from my single shot airguns, they don’t fit them to Multishot airguns, 9mm semi auto wasn’t auto safety when I had it, none of the 22lr I use at the club are auto safety.  
 

I’ve seen plenty of posts saying wood to metal & muzzle down, yet I’ve had others verbally tell me muzzle at 45’ and when I’ve queried this they told me it was to do with beaters approaching ( not lifting a loaded gun through them ) which made perfect sense to me even if it does go against every other bit of training I’ve had.  Slightly irrelevant to me as I’m never likely to be doing any drive shoots

 

I’ve had a numpty point a gun at me whilst down range for target change, politely advised him, then gave him a dig for disagreeing.

 

Muzzles down range and stay safe, no target / type of shoot / species is worth getting hurt for.