discobob Posted January 3 Author Report Share Posted January 3 4 minutes ago, Scully said: Have you considered medication? 😄 Not at all - have you considered a change of opticians?? 🤣 as you say - you are already trading and it is water off a ducks back to you - and I ran a one man band for 17 years where my clients were HMRC, MOD, Criminal Justice amongst others 11 minutes ago, serrac said: The problem might be proving you are not "trading". My daughter lost a lot of weight and sold pretty much her entire wardrobe on ebay, and the total came to well over £1000. Having not kept receipts she would have a hard time proving she was selling-on her own clothes. This is the point - when dealing with HMRC you are guilty and have to move heaven and earth to prove your innocence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 11 hours ago, Scully said: Many people use eBay, vinted etc to buy and then resell as a means to create income, and those who do will be taxed accordingly. Thats all it is. Scully you are spot on i know of a few who does exactly this to top up there earnings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 8 hours ago, discobob said: May I just point you towards Mr Bates Vs The Post Office i may be wearing a tin foil hat (fur lined for winter) but I also think there are people who are wearing rose tinted glasses. Over the past few years I have learnt that where a government can do you over - they will Do wear it on Sunday, PLEASE............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manthing Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 This is the old "pin money" allowance when you could earn a bit on the side with no tax implications. Was aimed at housewives taking in the odd bit of sewing and such from what I was told years ago. Same with recycling a bit of scrap I'd think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 10 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said: more realistically, how much less will it be than the staff costs of the inevitable battalions of civil servants they will hire to manage this? This - It makes me think this originated with civil servants keen to enlarge their own departments/power, and thus income/pension. Someone in government did not think this through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 11 hours ago, discobob said: Not at all - have you considered a change of opticians?? 🤣 No, I read your neurotic post no problem! 😄 You really are fretting over nothing! If people are trading online then they will have to keep records, if they aren’t then they needn’t. It really is that simple. I’ve no doubt my accountant will ask if the money I recently received for the sale of a gun is taxable, to which I will say no, and that’s the end of it. 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 We'll see whose version of events is more accurate, @discobob's or @Scully's. Have to say though, my experience of HMRC is more akin to Bob's, viz. guilty until you prove your innocence. Seems like a poor use of government resources all round, really. But then they've relentlessly pursued IR35, even though it has cost the government more money, seems nobody in the treasury has any grasp of cost/benefit analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 13 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said: It's as if they genuinely don't want re-electing. I wonder how much income this will generate them? Or, more realistically, how much less will it be than the staff costs of the inevitable battalion of civil servants they will hire to manage this? Even if there's no prima facia change in the rules around income, the optics of this are terrible given the chicken feed amount in revenue it'll generate. Osborne, Hunt, Sunak, as chancellors all about as conservative as Gordon Brown. I'm pretty sure they want out, bereft of ideas and needing a rest from the strains of their achievements? Osborne, Hunt and Sunak as effective as Brown? All absolutely useless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted January 4 Author Report Share Posted January 4 53 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said: We'll see whose version of events is more accurate, @discobob's or @Scully's. Have to say though, my experience of HMRC is more akin to Bob's, viz. guilty until you prove your innocence. Seems like a poor use of government resources all round, really. But then they've relentlessly pursued IR35, even though it has cost the government more money, seems nobody in the treasury has any grasp of cost/benefit analysis. IR35 is why I ditched Contracting - but I am considering going back to it now.... I work in and design systems that do this kind of stuff - processing, chewing up data, spitting out emails/letters/reports etc... and I am fully aware of how this would be implemented - I would say that the one thing missing to make it "easy" is digital id - to sell on these platforms, you register your Digital ID - this gives them a key to crunch the data together from the various sources... As someone has said to me - HMRC don't have the people to deal with it - but they don't need it - the ownness is on you, and you will more than likely have to deal with an AI powered portal to deal with your denial - Bill doesn't have the receipt for the bike he bought (perhaps for eco reasons he sold his car cash and used it to buy the bike ) and it (the receipt) has gone adrift over the 3 years he has owned it - tough - the AI says no.... You are now registered as a sole trader - and anything you sell is now subject to tax.... Sue bought a vase at a car boot - turns out it is worth £6000 - bang - or it was left as part of her aunts estate - bang..... 5 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Do wear it on Sunday, PLEASE............... Challenge Accepted 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Just keep your receipts and all you need to keep as a trader, and leave the baco foil where it is. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted January 4 Author Report Share Posted January 4 11 minutes ago, Scully said: leave the baco foil where it is. I use Costco tin foil - much better quality and quantity But you seem to be only concerned with what you need to prove you are a trader - in which case - tax is fair game - but you keep missing the point about being able to prove you are not a trader!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigroomboy Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 All seems to make perfect sense to me. If you are operating a business you should pay tax just like I do. Whether that is on line or bricks and mortar should make no difference. I can't stand people not paying their way, then claiming to everybody who will listen why they entitled to every public service available, oh and then blaming the way the country is going on migrants..... The only people who should be worried by this are those not doing their bit, so looks like great news for all the law abiding citizens of PW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 8 minutes ago, discobob said: I use Costco tin foil - much better quality and quantity But you seem to be only concerned with what you need to prove you are a trader - in which case - tax is fair game - but you keep missing the point about being able to prove you are not a trader!! I don’t know of anyone having to prove they’re NOT a trader. You either are or aren’t. If you’re buying and selling online to create income, and that income takes you over a threshold, then you’re trading and should have all the relevant documentation to hand. If you sell an old car of yours in a one off deal, then it’s not classed as trading, and besides that, who’s to know? If the IR think you’re an online trader let them prove it; I can’t understand why anyone would entertain their claims to the contrary if they were untrue. You seem to be trying to create a problem where it doesn’t exist. 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKD Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 6 minutes ago, Scully said: You seem to be trying to create a problem where it doesn’t exist. 🤷♂️ How did you ever get to that conclusion ? 🙈😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, Scully said: If the IR HMRC think you’re an online trader let them prove it; I can’t understand why anyone would entertain their claims to the contrary if they were untrue. You seem to be trying to create a problem where it doesn’t exist. 🤷♂️ I think Scully you've been lucky till now in dealings with them. The onus is on you to disprove their take on things, oh and by the way, meantime here's a fine for non-payment, and a accruing interest on what you owe us, and interest on the fine. Despite having an accountant and on-time filings, I still had some old battle a...lady knock on my door from HMRC this time last year, bodycam in hand, demanding immediate payment of £17k. Onus was very much on me to prove their mistake. Which was more like £7k and not even due yet! If I'd just said 'prove it', she would've simply moved the investigation forward to court/seizure of assets territory. 22 minutes ago, bigroomboy said: The only people who should be worried by this are those not doing their bit, so looks like great news for all the law abiding citizens of PW. Ahh the old nothing to hide nothing to fear routine. Suggest you google why that's a text-book logical fallacy. As has been stated, this is total over-reach and will doubtless cost vastly more than it raises, but hey ho. Morally right and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted January 4 Author Report Share Posted January 4 @Scully you still miss the point - I have no issue with anyone that is a trader being taxed as a trader - fair dues. But you are not seeing the point - if HMRC determine you to be a trader - for example if they did in Serrac's Sisters case above - how do you prove you are not a trader??? Say you have no receipts to show so therefore you are not a trader - that just won't cut the mustard I am afraid to say. You have obviously had much better experiences with HMRC than I, and others have had. Indeed - while typing my response @udderlyoffroad has responded with his experience - and watch Mr Bates as I have said above (and there is a thread on this currently running) - another government agency behaving the same way. Your Nothing to Hide scenario may still end up costing you thousands to deal with if you end up on the wrong side of a judgement - and that will more than likely have been carried out by an AI model Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigroomboy Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Ultimately the matter would have to end up in a court of law and if you are in the right you will be fine. I do agree both HMRC and the police use forceful tactics to pressure payments which I don't agree with, but ultimately if you are confident you are in the right then let them take it to court. At the end of the day they are only going to pursue investigations against those making significant illegal gains, just as they always have done. For example above, if you sold £5k of clothes in 3 months, all female and of a similar size then the court would probably see that as complimentary to the reason you gave. If you had the same excuse but you had sold £20k pa of a wide range of clothes for the last 5 years then that would not be a reasonable excuse. They would have to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. The law is on your side by default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Oh please! I’ve had all manner of dealings with HMRC over 25 years; mostly to do with self assessment. Being an artist is quite complicated when it comes to self assessment for tax purposes for whatever reason, and I was subbing to a building company also, and I’m not techy but was too tight to pay for an accountant! The last straw was when they decided they were coming to investigate me for something they claimed I’d failed to declare. They wouldn’t tell me what it was and I couldn’t help them because I had no idea what it was! 😀 I asked how on earth we were going to resolve it if they wouldn’t say and I didn’t know! They didn’t have an answer and for whatever reason despite them saying they would be in touch, they didn’t, and it came to nothing! 🤷♂️ I still have no idea what it was all about and it must be 12 years ago now. The hardest part was getting through to the right dept, because each one told me I needed another dept’ but wouldn’t connect me, so I had to call again each time! Anyhow, I have a very good accountant now. If people are that worried about the tax man that they want to lay awake each night worrying about something which isn’t going to happen, then that’s their choice, but I won’t be one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Think we'll just have to agree to differ on this one. Usually when @Scully says stop overthinking things, I'm right with him, on this occasion however, I'm more of a Discbob-ist. We'll doubtless see in a year or so's time who's right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted January 4 Author Report Share Posted January 4 Unfortunately, you are taking me wrong @Scully - I won't be losing any sleep over it - and the fact is that not many people will - and most will have absolutely no idea on it coming into place Until the letter drops though the door... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 32 minutes ago, discobob said: Unfortunately, you are taking me wrong @Scully - I won't be losing any sleep over it - and the fact is that not many people will - and most will have absolutely no idea on it coming into place Until the letter drops though the door... Those who are doing it as a business and running it as a business, won’t be getting a letter through the door, because everything will be as it should be. Those who are doing it on a REGULAR basis to create revenue for which they have no intention of declaring, have only themselves to blame if a letter drops through the door. Being unaware of what you should and shouldn’t be doing if creating revenue for yourself, isn’t really a defence. It really is that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 6 minutes ago, Scully said: Being unaware of what you should and shouldn’t be doing if creating revenue for yourself, isn’t really a defence. And in this case, coverage on Radio, (I guess) TV, and all the 'mainstream' newspapers, plus no doubt all manner of social medias means if you haven't heard that eBay's reporting rules are changing, you are very isolated ........... and the 'very isolated' don't sell lots on line .......... I don't sell on eBay at all, but do occasionally buy and have been made aware from a number of sources and I'm pretty sure eBay have advised me (but can't find the email!) as a change of their T's and C's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted January 4 Author Report Share Posted January 4 @ScullyYou keep fixating on this operating as a business - that is not the issue. It is people who may have a mass clear out - or someone who has given up a hobby and is selling their stuff - that could be in the order of thousands - Sells it on eBay to then gets the letter - and then has to prove that they are not trading......They are creating a little bit of revenue from stuff that you can bet they have paid a hell of a lot more for... You said it yourself - trying to deal with HMRC is very exhausting - and in 2025 i bet there will be multiple points that will be replaced with ChatBots and AI and will be even harder to deal with and speak with a person... I think we had best leave it here as we are getting nowhere @JohnfromUK I haven't heard anything through standard media channels (Radio/TV) and it is already in place.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Just now, discobob said: I haven't heard anything through standard media channels (Radio/TV) and it is already in place.... I heard it on radio - about a month or so back on a programme probably R4 consumer or money programme. Not personally seen it on TV, but I don't watch much TV. Been in the Telegraph, Mail both many times and as I say, I'm actually fairly sure eBay advised me of a change of T's and C's relating to it, but I don't keep those emails. It has also (now) been widely discussed in these very forums ............. Quick Google look at 'on-line news shows it on the Independent, the Guardian, GB News, This is Money, Money Week, Your Money, Martin Lewis, Mumsnet, and a great many accountants businesses touting for business, so it has been very public. And I only looked for postings in the UK and in the last month, so a great many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 21 hours ago, Vince Green said: There are however a lot of people selling a lot of stuff on ebay and I have to wonder how many are declaring it I think, Sir, you'll find the real tax dodgers are the regular folk you see at car boot sales with what appears to be new stock. All cash in hand. For then eBay is too much of a "paper" trail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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