BASC update on voluntary transition away from lead shot and and single-use plastics for live quarry

[Weihrauch17]

3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Rather than 'reading between the lines' may I recommend that you take the time to read BASC's response to last year's HSE consultation. BASC's policy is clear in that response - opposing further regulations on all forms of lead ammunition for the various reasons outlined in that response. 

 

 

 

You won't have to think about it soon, 4000 guns in the Holt's sealed bid auction.  Your lack of opposition to the additional Medical impositions after Plymouth and stance on Lead means people are giving up in their droves.

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

This is tedious and I am drawing a line under it. You have made your choice and it's yours to make.

Unfortunately this response, as much as it comes as no surprise, says much more about you and BASC, whom you represent, than it does about the choices I and others ( the vast majority apparently ) have made. 
People will draw their own conclusions regarding the deliberate avoidance of straight forward questions. 

[rbrowning2]

16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Rather than 'reading between the lines' may I recommend that you take the time to read BASC's response to last year's HSE consultation. BASC's policy is clear in that response - opposing further regulations on all forms of lead ammunition for the various reasons outlined in that response. 

 

 

 

Quote

BASC’s position is that clay pigeon shooting with lead shot could continue where grounds have the correct risk measures in place, and they can ensure lead removal, as per the HSE guidance for target shooting with rifles.

However, What exactly is the correct risk measures and how can any clay ground that shoots english sporting in woods ensure lead removal ????

 

12 minutes ago, BobbyH said:

This is getting a bit much for me if I’m honest, I have bought some standard steel shotgun ammo today, I have guns that can fire steel shot and HP steel shot. For the guns that can’t shoot them, I’ll get them opened up to a minimum of 1/2 choke so I can.
As long as I can still shoot, that’s fine with me. Simple. Im with the CPSA, I’m a full member, and all that Jazz and I haven’t heard a peep off of them about it all. I’ll only take action when they or the HSE tell me to. 
 

I’m not with BASC, so can’t and won’t comment on it.
 

 

You may not have any clay grounds to shoot at, depends on the cost of implementing the measures are worthwhile to continue with lead.

Yes steel shot then becomes the only way forward, but for grounds that are currently fibre wads only who will want to pay £400 plus for cartridges to shoot clays?

 

Edited April 8 by rbrowning2

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yes it will. As awareness and understanding of the risks to birds from lead shot widens perhaps those operating temporary clay pigeon shoots in the open countryside may consider voluntarily moving away from the use of lead shot in those scenarios. 

So in effect you’re saying it’s the scattering of lead shot over a area that is the problem not the use in shooting game birds specifically 

If as you say clay grounds can manage the risk ( how ) then surely game shoots can manage the risk in the same manner 

 

personally think game shoots moved away from single use plastic wads years before this proposed voluntary transition 

[Scully]

49 minutes ago, BobbyH said:

This is getting a bit much for me if I’m honest, I have bought some standard steel shotgun ammo today, I have guns that can fire steel shot and HP steel shot. For the guns that can’t shoot them, I’ll get them opened up to a minimum of 1/2 choke so I can.
As long as I can still shoot, that’s fine with me. Simple. Im with the CPSA, I’m a full member, and all that Jazz and I haven’t heard a peep off of them about it all. I’ll only take action when they or the HSE tell me to. 
 

I’m not with BASC, so can’t and won’t comment on it.
 

 

The ‘voluntary transition’ only relates to live quarry shooting, and is in response to the HSE’s proposed ban of lead ammunition ( both shot and other lead projectiles ) in accordance to EU REACH proposals, which includes lead shot and lead ammunition used in shotguns, rifles and airguns. 
Amazingly, and for reasons which apparently cannot be easily explained given part of the reasoning behind the ‘voluntary transition’ as it relates to the environment, none of this applies to trap shooting!
As far as I’m aware, the CPSA wasn’t consulted and isn’t a signatory as it isn’t concerned with live quarry shooting. 

So, if you’re a trap shooter, relax and carry on! 🙂

Edited April 8 by Scully

[rbrowning2]

Trap shooting, english skeet, DTL, olympic skeet, etc are shot over very small areas of open ground, and whilst costly ground sheets and curtains can be installed to capture and hence recover the shot. However none of this is possible for english sporting or FITAS.

But despite asking, Conor refuses to explain how this can be done for english sporting and FITAS shot over larger areas than trap shooting and frequently within woods or over rough ground.

As I said appeasement as in reality the only logical answer is not to use lead shot.

 

Edited April 8 by rbrowning2

[jall25]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yes, there has been 4 years of consultation including on this forum. If you mean were BASC members asked in advance of the announcement of February 2020 by nine organisations about that announcement, no they were not asked in advance, because for BASC's part in that, this was a policy decision taken by BASC's Council -  who are made of BASC members elected by the wider BASC membership to make policy decisions for BASC. 

 

Yes thats what i meant Conor and i think thats seems to be so much of the issue for so many people 

 

[Weihrauch17]

3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yes, there has been 4 years of consultation including on this forum. If you mean were BASC members asked in advance of the announcement of February 2020 by nine organisations about that announcement, no they were not asked in advance, because for BASC's part in that, this was a policy decision taken by BASC's Council -  who are made of BASC members elected by the wider BASC membership to make policy decisions for BASC. 

How can you consult after the event?  That is like shooting someone then asking them if they wanted to be shot!  I binned BASC after the leaked John Swift minutes and I have now binned the NGO for their support of this idiocy.

[jall25]

59 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

How can you consult after the event?  That is like shooting someone then asking them if they wanted to be shot!  I binned BASC after the leaked John Swift minutes and I have now binned the NGO for their support of this idiocy.

 

Totally agree Weihrauch - just seems such an odd thing to be doing

Commit to the transition

Then spend the next few years asking if we are happy with it ?

[Bigteddy1954]

Hi all the game shoots i attend are all felt wad only no plas wads so where is the problem them 

[London Best]

59 minutes ago, Bigteddy1954 said:

Hi all the game shoots i attend are all felt wad only no plas wads so where is the problem them 

I don’t think I have attended a game shoot in the last twenty years or so where they have not specified ‘no plastic wads’.

[Rewulf]

16 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yes, there has been 4 years of consultation including on this forum.

No, there has been 4 years of BASC telling us what they want us to do.

 

16 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

because for BASC's part in that, this was a policy decision taken by BASC's Council -  who are made of BASC members elected by the wider BASC membership to make policy decisions for BASC. 

So, because a tiny fraction of BASC members elected a few boot lickers members to council, who were in turn instructed by the executive to support a 'voluntary transition' that makes it all OK ?

You should have put it to a members vote, end of.
Now you have given the HSE the opportunity to enforce the 'transition' citing the 'support' of the shooting orgs.
This , has affected EVERYONE who shoots, BASC member or not.
Where did you think this was OK ?

15 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

This is tedious and I am drawing a line under it. You have made your choice and it's yours to make.

Im getting deja vu here.......

[Penelope]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

No, there has been 4 years of BASC telling us what they want us to do.

 

So, because a tiny fraction of BASC members elected a few boot lickers members to council, who were in turn instructed by the executive to support a 'voluntary transition' that makes it all OK ?

You should have put it to a members vote, end of.
Now you have given the HSE the opportunity to enforce the 'transition' citing the 'support' of the shooting orgs.
This , has affected EVERYONE who shoots, BASC member or not.
Where did you think this was OK ?

Im getting deja vu here.......

 Absolutely bang on.

[clangerman]

30 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

No, there has been 4 years of BASC telling us what they want us to do.

 

So, because a tiny fraction of BASC members elected a few boot lickers members to council, who were in turn instructed by the executive to support a 'voluntary transition' that makes it all OK ?

You should have put it to a members vote, end of.
Now you have given the HSE the opportunity to enforce the 'transition' citing the 'support' of the shooting orgs.
This , has affected EVERYONE who shoots, BASC member or not.
Where did you think this was OK ?

Im getting deja vu here.......

nailed it as usual been waiting for someone to spot connor now blames the members have you ever seen the like of taking members money while deliberately keeping them in the dark you would get more honesty from the mafia! lol 

[Bigteddy1954]

Spot on Rewulf not a truer statement bravo that man

[Conor O'Gorman]

21 hours ago, Scully said:

The ‘voluntary transition’ only relates to live quarry shooting, and is in response to the HSE’s proposed ban of lead ammunition ( both shot and other lead projectiles ) in accordance to EU REACH proposals, which includes lead shot and lead ammunition used in shotguns, rifles and airguns. 

Again you are conflating the voluntary transition with a ban. Moreover, the HSE was tasked to look at lead in ammunition amongst many other chemicals in relation to the Brexit deal to allow continued trade with EU on chemicals and that all started long after the voluntary transition was announced. I really do think you should take a step back, do some reading, and get the facts right, given the amount of time you commit to comments and assertions on this forum on this topic.  

[Conor O'Gorman]

Putting the personal comments to one side it is progress that forum members are able to discuss this topic from various viewpoints and there is growing awareness and acceptance that lead shot does pose risks for birds eating it as grit and that this needs to be tackled - and a growing interest in looking into alternatives to lead shot with that in mind.

With that in mind the following blog post by GWCT's Mike Swan gives an interesting perspective and insight on the voluntary transition.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2024/march/phasing-out-lead-where-are-we/

[Weihrauch17]

4 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Putting the personal comments to one side it is progress that forum members are able to discuss this topic from various viewpoints and there is growing awareness and acceptance that lead shot does pose risks for birds eating it as grit and that this needs to be tackled - and a growing interest in looking into alternatives to lead shot with that in mind.

With that in mind the following blog post by GWCT's Mike Swan gives an interesting perspective and insight on the voluntary transition.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2024/march/phasing-out-lead-where-are-we/

No growing acceptance that I can see for either of those comments.  All I see is total opposition to the out right betrayal of your and the other Org's members.  I am surprised you and they have any members left 

[Scully]

20 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Again you are conflating the voluntary transition with a ban. Moreover, the HSE was tasked to look at lead in ammunition amongst many other chemicals in relation to the Brexit deal to allow continued trade with EU on chemicals and that all started long after the voluntary transition was announced. I really do think you should take a step back, do some reading, and get the facts right, given the amount of time you commit to comments and assertions on this forum on this topic.  

I thought you’d drawn a line under our conversations?

This is an extract of a statement by BASC, found online. For whatever reason I couldn’t create a link, so screen shot it and cropped it to fit, so if it’s out of context then fair enough. 
I thought it worth posting after your refusal to answer any of my questions regarding .22rf ammo, and made the comment about there being no proposed ban regarding….well, anything really. 🤷‍♂️ You’ll note it mentions not only lead shot but also rifle and airgun ammunition. 
It is still noted that you have answered only one ( I think ) of the questions I have asked, answered one but only with a question of your own ( which I replied to ) and totally ignored others with a statement. 
 

[Conor O'Gorman]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

I thought you’d drawn a line under our conversations?

This is an extract of a statement by BASC, found online. For whatever reason I couldn’t create a link, so screen shot it and cropped it to fit, so if it’s out of context then fair enough. 
I thought it worth posting after your refusal to answer any of my questions regarding .22rf ammo, and made the comment about there being no proposed ban regarding….well, anything really. 🤷‍♂️ You’ll note it mentions not only lead shot but also rifle and airgun ammunition. 
It is still noted that you have answered only one ( I think ) of the questions I have asked, answered one but only with a question of your own ( which I replied to ) and totally ignored others with a statement. 
 

I have drawn a line under the conversation. I am correcting misinformation you are posting on a thread that I started. Feel free to start your own thread. Do you accept that you got it wrong on the timing of the voluntary transition relative to the HSE review? A yes or no answer would be fine.

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I have drawn a line under the conversation. I am correcting misinformation you are posting on a thread that I started. Feel free to start your own thread. Do you accept that you got it wrong on the timing of the voluntary transition relative to the HSE review? A yes or no answer would be fine.

Very disappointing Conor, you are trying to evade the genuine questions, by clouding the issue, and pointing out a minor wording issue by Scully, no one is falling for it.

You said -'You got it wrong for 4 years on the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting by conflating it with a ban - moreover you saw it as a ban beyond lead shot with your questions about .22lr ammunition. It's ok to get it wrong. There is lots of misinformation on the whole topic.'

Its far easier to say 'ban' than 'the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting' , we all know what he meant.
And sure enough , a year later the HSE roll up with a ban proposal, for ALL lead projectiles, and BASC (and the other orgs complicit )  all slunk into the undergrowth saying 'Nothing to do with us' 

You know, if you would just answer straight questions, without all the blurb and evasion, BASC might get a bit more respect, because in all honesty , I think youve messed up , but as someone recently said 'Its OK to get it wrong'
The problem is , youre all saying everything fine, no issues here ect, and thats delusional thinking.

[Scully]

35 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I have drawn a line under the conversation. I am correcting misinformation you are posting on a thread that I started. Feel free to start your own thread. Do you accept that you got it wrong on the timing of the voluntary transition relative to the HSE review? A yes or no answer would be fine.

Is it simply a matter of timing? 😄

What difference does timing make to a proposed ban for live quarry shooting which will become a reality at some point very soon despite what you want to refer to as a ‘voluntary transition’?
Has the HSE proposed a ban on the use and sale of lead shot for live quarry shooting in the UK?

If the transition fails ( which is what is obviously happening ) what is the outcome likely to be? A ban, which is when BASC etc say ‘well we tried to tell you but you brought it on yourselves’! Brought what on ourselves? Something which was going to happen anyway?  If it succeeds ( which it won’t, leading to a ban ) BASC etc can then claim we made a ‘voluntary transition’! BASC etc then claims the moral high ground but it amounts to the same thing!  A ban. Isn’t this simply semantics? 
The quickest way to get us to stop using lead projectiles for live quarry Conor, is for cartridge manufacturers to stop producing them, but they aren’t. Even when and if they do, unless it is made illegal to buy or use lead projectiles for live quarry shooting or indeed for all shooting ( which is a ban ) then shooters will simply buy trap loads; they’re great for decoying. 🤷‍♂️


 

[enfieldspares]

22 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

How can you consult after the event?  That is like shooting someone then asking them if they wanted to be shot!  I binned BASC after the leaked John Swift minutes and I have now binned the NGO for their support of this idiocy.

I did the same. Binned BASC after the Ali fiasco and then SACS after they jumped on the BASC let's ban lead madness movement. I am now with CPSA who did not sign up to the BASC letter.

[Conor O'Gorman]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

Is it simply a matter of timing? 😄

What difference does timing make to a proposed ban for live quarry shooting which will become a reality at some point very soon despite what you want to refer to as a ‘voluntary transition’?
Has the HSE proposed a ban on the use and sale of lead shot for live quarry shooting in the UK?

If the transition fails ( which is what is obviously happening ) what is the outcome likely to be? A ban, which is when BASC etc say ‘well we tried to tell you but you brought it on yourselves’! Brought what on ourselves? Something which was going to happen anyway?  If it succeeds ( which it won’t, leading to a ban ) BASC etc can then claim we made a ‘voluntary transition’! BASC etc then claims the moral high ground but it amounts to the same thing!  A ban. Isn’t this simply semantics? 
The quickest way to get us to stop using lead projectiles for live quarry Conor, is for cartridge manufacturers to stop producing them, but they aren’t. Even when and if they do, unless it is made illegal to buy or use lead projectiles for live quarry shooting or indeed for all shooting ( which is a ban ) then shooters will simply buy trap loads; they’re great for decoying. 🤷‍♂️


 

Ok. Let's ask the question again. Do you accept that you got it wrong on the timing of the voluntary transition relative to the HSE review? You have stated that the HSE review was preceded by the voluntary transition. A yes or no answer would be fine.

Notwithstanding the elephant in the room - that you have got it wrong for 4 years on this forum conflating a voluntary transition away from lead shot for a full lead ban, as particularly evidenced by per your bizarre comments on .22lr ammunition. 

I really do think you should take a step back, do some reading, and get the facts right, given the amount of time you commit to comments and assertions on this forum on this topic.  

[rbrowning2]

Conor you have yet to answer the question regarding the measures clay grounds would need to comply with to continue using lead shot.