BobbyH Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 With all this HSE nonsense going on, I have a question for the knowledgable on here. Why isn’t there any fibre wad steel cartridges in the market? Does the wad disintegrate when it’s shot with steel?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 Both Jocker and Gamebore did or are offering them it’s just down to availability one assumes, then price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted December 18 Author Report Share Posted December 18 Ahhh I see! I didn’t know if steel couldn’t be used in fibre? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightlittlebits Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 I believed it was to do with containing the shot and preventing the steel shot potentially contacting and scoring the barrels. I understood this was why they were all working on the bio-degradable wads with varying levels of success. Would be curious to know if there's any reason that the shot couldn't sit in a simpler "cup" on top of the fibre wad to contain it, rather than a full specialised wad. Would surely be cheaper than a full wad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 Clay and Game had these years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 Steel on steel contact if the shot were nit fully enclosed would be the result. Steel shot is actually iron but, nevertheless, allowing the shot and barrel to be "naked" on each other isn't good. Even in army and navy guns the steel cased projectiles (which won't be moving about as would lose shotgun sho)t mostly have copper driving bands which are what engage with the rifling in the barrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 Hello, So when they ban Lead for Steel there will be Plastic Wads scattered all over the Country Side ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightlittlebits Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 20 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said: Hello, So when they ban Lead for Steel there will be Plastic Wads scattered all over the Country Side ?? No, there will be "bio-wads" that degrade in an unknown timeframe sometime in the future. Costing £440/1000... Of course, they took into account the "economic impact", ignoring anyone that actually buys cartridges... All in the name of progress, or at least in the name of protecting commercial game shoots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 13 minutes ago, eightlittlebits said: No, there will be "bio-wads" that degrade in an unknown timeframe sometime in the future. Costing £440/1000... Of course, they took into account the "economic impact", ignoring anyone that actually buys cartridges... All in the name of progress, or at least in the name of protecting commercial game shoots. Hello, How long do Bio Wads take to degrade ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger687 Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 1 minute ago, oldypigeonpopper said: Hello, How long do Bio Wads take to degrade ?? The current biowad offerings from Bioammo, B&P, Hull and Lyalvale are not biodegradeable in real world conditions. Gamebore and Eley's are biodegradeable, and obviously any paper based wad will be fine also. I had barrel scoring occur immediately with Eley's biowad, the Gamebore wad seems to be exceptionally sensitive to moisture which makes me wary of them, and the Clay & Game fibre cup does work but is a poor performer compared to a plaswad, it needs much more powder to get the velocities up and the patterns are much more erratic. The 2nd generation Joker wads look good though and they'll be available to homeloaders at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 56 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said: Hello, So when they ban Lead for Steel there will be Plastic Wads scattered all over the Country Side ?? Too late, there already is. Due to the idiots who have been buying plastic wads for the last fifty years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted December 18 Report Share Posted December 18 (edited) These are the Jocker wads, similar concept to the Gamebore type that Clay and Game sell. Compared to injection moulding they must be expensive to manufacture. Five additional years to find a proper replacement to the good old faithful lead shot fibre wads at comparable cost. Edited December 18 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted December 18 Author Report Share Posted December 18 2 hours ago, London Best said: Too late, there already is. Due to the idiots who have been buying plastic wads for the last fifty years. Don’t see why they are idiots? Personal choice isn’t it? I buy some plastic wads…Does that make me an idiot then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted Wednesday at 20:20 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 20:20 2 hours ago, BobbyH said: Don’t see why they are idiots? Personal choice isn’t it? I buy some plastic wads…Does that make me an idiot then? Only if you scatter them about when the gun goes off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted Wednesday at 21:28 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 21:28 6 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said: Hello, How long do Bio Wads take to degrade ?? The day after we shoot they are degrading into little slug like blobs I rate steel - no dog in the fight - but being using it all year to great success Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet11-87 Posted Wednesday at 23:47 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 23:47 (edited) Picked up a fair few plastic wads from steel over the years think I’m yet to see one where shots not rubbed through and made contact with the barrel either between the petal or just plain straight through it. Even if it’s scoring the absolute life out of it. Who has or knows someone who’s scored a barrel to failure or even diminished performance? damascus and old English might have finally reach the days of retirement but where do we draw the line? Flintlocks? Edited Wednesday at 23:52 by Sweet11-87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted Thursday at 07:11 Report Share Posted Thursday at 07:11 (edited) 15 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said: Picked up a fair few plastic wads from steel over the years think I’m yet to see one where shots not rubbed through and made contact with the barrel either between the petal or just plain straight through it. Even if it’s scoring the absolute life out of it. Who has or knows someone who’s scored a barrel to failure or even diminished performance? damascus and old English might have finally reach the days of retirement but where do we draw the line? Flintlocks? I've found wads with holes in them, and I have guns with scored barrels - albeit that still shoot fine. But then I've pulled back on using steel shot in those guns. True, shotguns are not precision firearms - but I suspect they comes with polished bores for more than aesthetic reasons. The thing that irritates me, is that with lead - in order for you to damage a gun, either the cartridges would have to be a) massively overloaded, b) a fault with the gun, c) user error / blocked barrels, etc. Now, with steel - you can fire a gun in perfect condition, with 'appropriate' cartridges, and no user error - and it's pot luck if it's damaged or not. I'm absolutely fine with using steel from a killing perspective - and I got on equally well with copper bullets when I was deerstalking last weekend. I just don't appreciate ruining decent guns, and then worse, cartridge manufacturers wriggling out of it with a disclaimer on the side of the box. Edited Thursday at 15:11 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet11-87 Posted Thursday at 13:59 Report Share Posted Thursday at 13:59 6 hours ago, PeterHenry said: I've found wads with holes in them, and I have guns with scored barrels - albeit one that still shoot fine. But then I've pulled back on using steel shot in those guns. True, shotguns are not precision firearms - but I suspect they comes with polished bores for more than aesthetic reasons. The thing that irritates me, is that with lead - in order for you to damage a gun, either the cartridges would have to be a) massively overloaded, b) a fault with the gun, c) user error / blocked barrels, etc. Now, with steel - you can fire a gun in perfect condition, with 'appropriate' cartridges, and no user error - and it's pot luck if it's damaged or not. I'm absolutely fine with using steel from a killing perspective - and I got on equally well with copper bullets when I was deerstalking last weekend. I just don't appreciate ruining decent guns, and then worse, cartridge manufacturers wriggling out of it with a disclaimer on the side of the box. to be fair most of my guns are chrome lined bores so tend to have this shine, so yes a harder wearing finish more resilient to scoring but when scoring does happen it will probably result in a need to oil the bore but that is the only thing to worry about with scoring to my knowledge. if i can avoid it obviously i will as with everyone as its unsightly and reduces value but its not that big a deal form a practical sense its seems all a bit of a reason for people to just have a flap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted Thursday at 17:04 Report Share Posted Thursday at 17:04 3 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said: to be fair most of my guns are chrome lined bores so tend to have this shine, so yes a harder wearing finish more resilient to scoring but when scoring does happen it will probably result in a need to oil the bore but that is the only thing to worry about with scoring to my knowledge. if i can avoid it obviously i will as with everyone as its unsightly and reduces value but its not that big a deal form a practical sense its seems all a bit of a reason for people to just have a flap Hmmm, I don't know - the gun shop I use showed me the barrels from a pair of HP proofed Beretta SL3's that had been bought in and were scored beyond belief. They were so bad, it's inconceivable it wouldn't have had an effect on the pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet11-87 Posted Thursday at 17:43 Report Share Posted Thursday at 17:43 it will be documented somewhere im sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted Thursday at 17:44 Report Share Posted Thursday at 17:44 32 minutes ago, PeterHenry said: Hmmm, I don't know - the gun shop I use showed me the barrels from a pair of HP proofed Beretta SL3's that had been bought in and were scored beyond belief. They were so bad, it's inconceivable it wouldn't have had an effect on the pattern. any soft steel barrel will score if you have steel on steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted Thursday at 19:25 Report Share Posted Thursday at 19:25 1 hour ago, old'un said: any soft steel barrel will score if you have steel on steel. Could that be why steel shot isn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted Thursday at 19:49 Report Share Posted Thursday at 19:49 (edited) 2 hours ago, old'un said: any soft steel barrel will score if you have steel on steel. I'm with you on that one - which is rarther the point of my first post. You can do everything correctly - gun in perfect condition, correct proof, correct cartridges, etc - but you can still end up with a damaged gun through no fault of your own. 2 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said: it will be documented somewhere im sure I only have photos of inside the barrels of own guns, and the score marks in those. I thought it a bit off to photograph for posterity somone else's misfortune. Edited Thursday at 19:52 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted Thursday at 21:22 Report Share Posted Thursday at 21:22 4 hours ago, PeterHenry said: Hmmm, I don't know - the gun shop I use showed me the barrels from a pair of HP proofed Beretta SL3's that had been bought in and were scored beyond belief. They were so bad, it's inconceivable it wouldn't have had an effect on the pattern. It would be interesting to know if the guns were insured, and if so whether they coughed up. The fact barrels are proofed with lead and not steel for HP proofing, throws up the question whether any company would entertain insurance. 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted Thursday at 21:44 Report Share Posted Thursday at 21:44 21 minutes ago, Scully said: It would be interesting to know if the guns were insured, and if so whether they coughed up. The fact barrels are proofed with lead and not steel for HP proofing, throws up the question whether any company would entertain insurance. 🤷♂️ I shall try and remember to ask when I'm in there tomorrow 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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