bostonmick Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 But with it being on my cert. it will be out of my presence for over 72 hours. If you put it in for repair it would be away for longer than the 72 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Do we have a definitive answer on this? I have bought and sold guns all over the UK and Eire, but I have never sent my SGC to the seller, nor have I ever been sent a SGC as a seller.All transactions have involved RFD's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Scully With the greatest respect, the definitive legal answer has been given. The instructions are written on your FAC and, as the BASC guidance sheet says, "All certificate instructions provided by the Firearms Rules 1998 are legally binding and supported by Section 32(2)(b) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr smith Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) Scully With the greatest respect, the definitive legal answer has been given. The instructions are written on your FAC and, as the BASC guidance sheet says, "All certificate instructions provided by the Firearms Rules 1998 are legally binding and supported by Section 32(2)(b) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997". Yep this was discussed a wee while back on another forum and very few of the RFD's there knew about it but it is indeed the way it's meant to be done.I think the police weren't overly fussed as long as there was a paper trail to where the firearm is. Edited February 24, 2015 by mr smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 An interesting minute from a recent Beds & Herts regional FLM meeting. Whilst in this instance they are discussing remote RFD sales, the same would apply to remote private sales...................... RFD Remote sales – Concern was raised over RFDs selling firearm remotely without ensuring that the buyer held a certificate with the necessary authority to purchase the firearms. RFDs should be reminded that before making the sale to check and endorse the certificate even if the firearm is then to be sent on to a local dealer who would handed over the weapon to the holder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjjack Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 The bunch of Norks can Kiss my fat one ! Loving it!!! 😃 lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Scully With the greatest respect, the definitive legal answer has been given. The instructions are written on your FAC and, as the BASC guidance sheet says, "All certificate instructions provided by the Firearms Rules 1998 are legally binding and supported by Section 32(2)(b) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997". Fair enough. There must be thousands of us in breach of the terms and or conditions of our tickets ably assisted by RFD's. How much easier and logical would it be for the buyer/seller to show the RFD who was sending/receiving said gun, their certificate and then the relevant RFD to ring the other verifying the buyer/seller was authorised to possess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steyrman Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I picked my shotgun up last Tuesday the guy put it into his local rfd and i collected it from mine i never had to send any details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 A law can be interpreted in any way within the law, for an individual certificate holder to transfer a gun to a RFD who then transferres said gun to another RFD who then transferres this gun to another individual certificate holder, is, assuming all required checks are completed properly, I submit completely legal and above board. Surely RFD's are doing this every day in their normal course of their business? Once your certificate is not in your possession you are holding firearms illegally, that is why there is an obligation on the police to issue a temporary certificate if they cannot complete your application for renewal before the old one expires!....so why would you send/post it to some stranger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Would it not be easier to use a different rfd.may mean driving a little further. Maybe the rfd this post refers to does not want to do transport so is using the rules to put people off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Both of the RFDs I use follow this procedure, 1. The seller transfers the firearm to the sending RFD, this ensures the RFD sees his SGC/FAC, verifies its photo ID and authority to be in possession of the firearm being sold. 2. The sending RFD copies the sellers certificate details into his log ensuring there is a record of the transfer 3. On receipt of the firearm the receiving RFD enters it into his log and notifies the buyer of its arrival 4. The buyer collects the firearm from his RFD who checks the buyers SGC/FAC, verifies its photo ID and that it has authority to possess the relevant firearm 5. The receiving RFD records the buyers certificate details and also enters the transaction onto the buyers certificate This gives an extremely secure transfer and full documentation checks at both ends. Edited February 25, 2015 by phaedra1106 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westward Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 A law can be interpreted in any way within the law, for an individual certificate holder to transfer a gun to a RFD who then transferres said gun to another RFD who then transferres this gun to another individual certificate holder, is, assuming all required checks are completed properly, I submit completely legal and above board. Surely RFD's are doing this every day in their normal course of their business? Which is exactly what I said earlier. RFD 1 enters the vendors gun onto his register then ships it to RFD 2 who the enters onto his register. The buyer then collects from RFD 2 who transfers from his register to the buyer's SGC. Happens every day up and down the land and no one is in breach of the law. Because much of the law is vague and interpretive some civil service drone might think up some "guidance" as a way of justifying his/her salary but that doesn't make it legally binding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Both of the RFDs I use follow this procedure, 1. The seller transfers the firearm to the sending RFD, this ensures the RFD sees his SGC/FAC, verifies its photo ID and authority to be in possession of the firearm being sold. 2. The sending RFD copies the sellers certificate details into his log ensuring there is a record of the transfer 3. On receipt of the firearm the receiving RFD enters it into his log and notifies the buyer of its arrival 4. The buyer collects the firearm from his RFD who checks the buyers SGC/FAC, verifies its photo ID and that it has authority to possess the relevant firearm 5. The receiving RFD records the buyers certificate details and also enters the transaction onto the buyers certificate This gives an extremely secure transfer and full documentation checks at both ends. Thats the best way to do it and how all but one of my guns were sold/transferred (remotely). It is however not the correct way to do it to the letter of the law. While i don't really have an issue doing things this way with an RFD/manufacturer, i wouldn't be comfortable at all doing it 'the right way' with a private sale. There is also the issue of when did the transfer actually take place, was it when the seller signed your certificate, when the firearm arrives at the receiving RFD, or when you take possession of the firearm? There could be a week between potential dates! Best just keep operating as is until something more official comes out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Which is exactly what I said earlier. RFD 1 enters the vendors gun onto his register then ships it to RFD 2 who the enters onto his register. The buyer then collects from RFD 2 who transfers from his register to the buyer's SGC. Happens every day up and down the land and no one is in breach of the law. Because much of the law is vague and interpretive some civil service drone might think up some "guidance" as a way of justifying his/her salary but that doesn't make it legally binding. With respect, it is legally binding as per the firearms act and the instructions written on SGC's/FAC's. Non compliance of a FAC condition or instruction is a summary offence punishable with a maximum of 6 months imprisonment or a fine of level 5 on the standard scale, which at present is £5000.00. Mode of Trial: Summary Only. Punishment: Summary 6 months or a fine of level 5 on the standard scale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westward Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 With respect, it is legally binding as per the firearms act and the instructions written on SGC's/FAC's. With respect it doesn't say that on my SGC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 With respect it doesn't say that on my SGC. Bet you £50 to your chosen charity it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 With respect it doesn't say that on my SGC. It states it on mine.And as they are all produced by h.m stationers will all be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I only buy local from private sellers so have always been F2F,when I boult a gun from Avalon they insisted the licence has to be posted to them,they endorsed and sent it back recorded delivery.I then picked it up from my RFD by showing the licence with the gun entered.As CharlieT & bostonmick state its what's on the cert.I agree with most though,I wouldn't send my licence to a none RFD so wouldn't buy from no one unless I was prepared to travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) One other issue to mention on this and that is the courier for your SGC if you are sending it off. I have had numerous items where items have been sent RMSD and they have not arrived at the far end (been delivered to the wrong address or something) - then you have all the hastle of a missing SGC to contend with And the other issue that a SGC has ended up in the hands of somebody not authorized!! Edited February 25, 2015 by discobob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 One other issue to mention on this and that is the courier for your SGC if you are sending it off. I have had numerous items where items have been sent RMSD and they have not arrived at the far end (been delivered to the wrong address or something) - then you have all the hastle of a missing SGC to contend with And the other issue that a SGC has ended up in the hands of somebody not authorized!! Sent mine Avalon recorded deliver,so requires a signitor,then sent it back same.Ironically though my Renewal with photo copy of licence was hand into Licencing authority and they lost it( they managed to cash the. Cheque though) lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 So. I rang my RFD this morning. Explained the situation to her, she said not to send it to the buyer but his RFD. He will fill it in and send it back to me. So I rang the buyers RFD up he said I had to send cert to him. He would get buyer to come in and write it on my cert. I said no. My Flo said it had to be the RFD who did the writing on my cert, he didn't aggre so he rang his Flo. Called me back and said I was right. So now gun is with RFD. Iv sent my cert to him. He will fill in my cert. send it back recorded delivery. Send gun to my RFD I collect with my cert. bit of a carry on but if that's how it is now then that's how it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenhunter Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I would be okay about sending SGC/FAC to a dealer but not to private individual! What if the whole transaction turned out to be a scam(wouldn't be the first time, would it?). You've then got no gun and no cert AND they know what other guns you have and where to find them! A potential nightmare IMO!! GH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 So. I rang my RFD this morning. Explained the situation to her, she said not to send it to the buyer but his RFD. He will fill it in and send it back to me. So I rang the buyers RFD up he said I had to send cert to him. He would get buyer to come in and write it on my cert. I said no. My Flo said it had to be the RFD who did the writing on my cert, he didn't aggre so he rang his Flo. Called me back and said I was right. So now gun is with RFD. Iv sent my cert to him. He will fill in my cert. send it back recorded delivery. Send gun to my RFD I collect with my cert. bit of a carry on but if that's how it is now then that's how it is. Then I would suggest the FEO is wrong, as they often are, as the Firearms clearly states it is the transferor who must complete table 2. The owner of the shotgun is the one who is parting with possession, not his agent (the RFD) therefore it is he who must sign. I quote from the act............. “transfer” includes let on hire, give, lend and part with possession, and “transferee” and “transferor” shall be construed accordingly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carman06 Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Just remember as soon as you pay for it or even a deposit on a rifle/shotgun in the eyes of the law you are in possession of it due to having a financial interest in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 All I know is iv bought and sold a few guns in my time. And it's always been done RFD to RFD and it's never been a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.