28g cheapies

[fortune82]

No sherlock but, we are comparing different sized carts with differrent propellent levels....not a toy gun that farts!! :unsure:

 

You clearly dont understand ballistics! Anything flying through the air is slowed by wind resistance. Doesnt matter what its propelled by.

 

I aint wasting anymore time trying to explain however as it seems to be lost on you.

[fortune82]

And pray tell what will patterning a gun tell me other than one cartridge has more shot in it than the other which I knew before even getting them out of a box.

 

Come on then as you seem to know all the answers how will I know which set of pellets has hit the hardest by firing them at a cardboard or steel pattern plate?

 

If I was to pattern a 6 and a 9 then the 9 is quite obviously going to have a denser pattern but the pellets will have a lots less STRIKING energy which is what counts.

 

Its the pattern that kills.

 

Yes 7.5 has less energy than 6 obviously but how are you so sure 7.5 does not pack enough kinetic energy to kill a pigeon? I have just as clean kills with 7.5 as with 5 or 6 shot out to 40 yards.

 

Is there some sort of table that states how much energy individual pellets need for specific species?

[MC]

You clearly dont understand ballistics! Anything flying through the air is slowed by wind resistance. Doesnt matter what its propelled by.

 

I aint wasting anymore time trying to explain however as it seems to be lost on you.

 

However what you don't seem to get is that if two different size pellets leave a barrel at the same VELOCITY then the larger of the two is carrying more ENERGY and the smaller one loses said ENERGY at a faster rate so when they both get to the bird the larger piece of shot has more STRIKING ENERGY and will therefore do more fatal damage.

 

What would you rather get hit by? a Land rover Discovery at 30MPH or a Smart car at 30 MPH? The Smart car will do less damage to you as it has LESS KINETIC ENERGY.

 

Now do you get it?

[MC]

Its the pattern that kills.

 

Yes 7.5 has less energy than 6 obviously but how are you so sure 7.5 does not pack enough kinetic energy to kill a pigeon? I have just as clean kills with 7.5 as with 5 or 6 shot out to 40 yards.

 

Is there some sort of table that states how much energy individual pellets need for specific species?

 

Jesus wept,

 

Go to a gunshop and buy yourself an ELEY SHOOTERS DIARY. It contains velocities and energies for every size shot at every range from 5 to 50 yards and also tells you the required pellet strike and energy level to ensure a clean kill.

 

That is where I have got these figures from. Honestly I am not making it up.

 

On another tack do you think a .17HMR would be any good if it had the same muzzle velocity as a subsonis .22LR? No of course it wouldn't.

[fortune82]

Jesus wept,

 

Go to a gunshop and buy yourself an ELEY SHOOTERS DIARY. It contains velocities and energies for every size shot at every range from 5 to 50 yards and also tells you the required pellet strike and energy level to ensure a clean kill.

 

That is where I have got these figures from. Honestly I am not making it up.

 

On another tack do you think a .17HMR would be any good if it had the same muzzle velocity as a subsonis .22LR? No of course it wouldn't.

 

I have an eley shooters diary.

 

I know what you are meaning in terms of retained energy and velocity at a given range. All I am saying is that there is no hard and fast rule as to the amount of energy needed per pellet to kill a pigeon. Following your theory everyone would use 60 grams of bb. Lots of energy per pellet. The reason a .17HMR is so good is because it is fast and therefore has a flat trajectory. It does not have a huge amount more energy than a .22 LR High Velocity.

[al4x]

Jesus wept,

 

Go to a gunshop and buy yourself an ELEY SHOOTERS DIARY. It contains velocities and energies for every size shot at every range from 5 to 50 yards and also tells you the required pellet strike and energy level to ensure a clean kill.

 

That is where I have got these figures from. Honestly I am not making it up.

 

On another tack do you think a .17HMR would be any good if it had the same muzzle velocity as a subsonis .22LR? No of course it wouldn't.

 

 

please don't even go there HM2 by chance :unsure:

[libs]

Jesus wept,

 

Go to a gunshop and buy yourself an ELEY SHOOTERS DIARY. It contains velocities and energies for every size shot at every range from 5 to 50 yards and also tells you the required pellet strike and energy level to ensure a clean kill.

 

That is where I have got these figures from. Honestly I am not making it up.

 

On another tack do you think a .17HMR would be any good if it had the same muzzle velocity as a subsonis .22LR? No of course it wouldn't.

 

 

Think this can be solved by bringing out the old Kinetic Energy = 1/2m x v^2

 

So if an object has half the mass of another object at the same velocity, it has half the KE of the more massive object. Wheras if an object has twice the velocity but the same mass as the object at half its speed, it has four times the kinetic energy..... Meaning velocity matters more that mass if you want higher KE... But not in the real world.

 

Most basic mechanical models in physics take wind resistance as being 0, which is simply not the case. Something with a higher velocity has a higher deccelarion than a slower object of the same mass moving through a fluid, in this case, air.

 

So a heavier object has more energy down range as it is less effected by wind resistance, even if it had less KE than a smaller object at the muzzle.

 

(I think I have made some sense, but then again I only got a C so correct me if I am wrong :unsure: )

[guest1957]

Whilst reading this I got a bit bored so mapped the pellet energy of the 7.5 against the pellet energy of the 6 (using data supplied by hull). At 30 yards 7.5 has the same energy as 6 at 50 yards. Provided an equal number of pellets hit, both will be equally fatal at the respective distances. I'm not claiming to be an expert in this at all, just playing on excel. p.s. pellet energy was found hovering over the dots on the graph.

 

(As an aside, the fighting on here makes a newbie like me think twice about using the site)

[kdubya]

You are now bringing in another factor of chokes, which I do not believe in. I shoot 1/4 choke in all my guns and firmly believe that if you have the correct cartridge in the gun and I do my bit the bird is dead.

 

Yes occasionally I don't do my bit and you get a winger, that unfortunately is shooting.

 

I do not see the advantage of patterning a gun. When I start missing far more than I hit then I may start to worry about bad patterns etc but as yet have never seen the need.

 

I pattern the gun every time I make a new batch of carts, I want to know spread and consistency of pellets at 30meters, to narrow with a mass of pellet = misses or destroying the bird, to wide and a sparse shot count = winged birds it also gives an idea of cart speed without a chrono,in fact I tried 25 new today on the pigeon and lets say I need the pattern plate out asap before I make anymore? the birds I hit I were dead in the air but I missed to many for comfort I need to know why? so pattern and chrono will be called into play.

 

the original thrust of this thread was are 7.5 good enough for pigeon simple answer is yes but understand the limitations in distance, people are constantly going on about 40 yarders if your shooting pigeon at 40 yards you are not decoying correctly,or you are to keen and not letting the bird come in, there is no need whatsoever to shoot pigeon at distances past 25 yards unless you are limited to passing fare and high birds but thats another ball game entirely.

 

I admit to prefare using size 6 for pigeon and crow but if I do buy carts for them I will only buy proper pigeon size 5.5 (always feel I cant miss with these but not cheap so I make my own) but I have absolutely no trouble with my conscience if I have to use 7.5.

 

KW

[wymberley]

I have an eley shooters diary.

 

I know what you are meaning in terms of retained energy and velocity at a given range. All I am saying is that there is no hard and fast rule as to the amount of energy needed per pellet to kill a pigeon. Following your theory everyone would use 60 grams of bb. Lots of energy per pellet. The reason a .17HMR is so good is because it is fast and therefore has a flat trajectory. It does not have a huge amount more energy than a .22 LR High Velocity.

Hi, If you have an Eley diary, it details what you describe as a "hard and fast rule" for various species. Failing that the definitve work is probably Burrard but that'll keep you occupied until Easter.

Cheers

[wymberley]

Whilst reading this I got a bit bored so mapped the pellet energy of the 7.5 against the pellet energy of the 6 (using data supplied by hull). At 30 yards 7.5 has the same energy as 6 at 50 yards. Provided an equal number of pellets hit, both will be equally fatal at the respective distances. I'm not claiming to be an expert in this at all, just playing on excel. p.s. pellet energy was found hovering over the dots on the graph.

 

(As an aside, the fighting on here makes a newbie like me think twice about using the site)

For crying out loud, hang in here. The ability to think is a welcome addition to the site.

[utectok]

(As an aside, the fighting on here makes a newbie like me think twice about using the site)

great post very intresting don't worry about these mad rants that get a hold every now and then! I've been involved in the odd crazy thread and i found it a bit overwhelming but mostly it pretty calm and helpfully here. I tend to stay below the parapet if it starts kicking off usually a couple of mentalists having a girly fight. Straight shooting will

[George1990]

Lets try and go for 20 pages...

 

We've still got the penetration vs shock damage to go. 7's will give better penetration at close range, but is this better than the higher energy dissipation of the 6 at the same range??? Who knows...

 

And what about a number 6 shot running at 1300fps and 7 shot at 1400fps??? Will it all equal out?

 

And surely it's all right to use 7's in plastic wad over 6's in fibre, as the pattern is better.

 

 

 

Discuss.

[utectok]

Well George1990 whilst I appreciate your spirit of adventure please nooooooo more!!!!!

[Bluebarrels]

It might be worth remembering this is a open forum arguing between ourselves, will do our sport more harm than good change the word CARTRIDGE for the word AMMUNITION and your providing the antis with plenty BB

[Evil Elvis]

You clearly dont understand ballistics! Anything flying through the air is slowed by wind resistance. Doesnt matter what its propelled by.

 

NOPE you are missing the point!!!!

 

It does matter how MUCH propellant its propelled by!!! the average 28g has between 14 and 16 grains where as the 32g has between 17.5 and 20 grains.

 

Yes they need to increase it make the no 6's go fast enough to kill but by using more proppellant with a denser shot they create more Kinetic energy at the point of impact!!!!

 

As far as ballistics are concerned, i know you sprout a load of old ballistics

[ollie]

As some of you will know I am in the 7.5 camp but just answer me this question? Which is harder to kill a pheasant or a pigeon? I presume the answer is going to be pheasant; so then why do all the major cartridge makers supply game cartridges in 7's? I think in order to penetrate a pigeon (which lets face it, the feathers are really loose) you will need a smaller cartridge than for a pheasant. For **** sake I use 7's or sometimes 7 1/2's for shooting rabbits over ferrets and I think they are probably harder to kill than a pigeon.

 

I know I can't really provide any ballistic evidence but I choose cartridges based on what has worked for me in the past.

[Ferret Master]

Right chaps.

 

Just read all that, lots of rubbish and lots of good posts too, not gonna lie. I would like to clarify a few things...

 

1. None of the major manufactures make a dedicated game/pigeon load with 7.5's 8's or smaller pellets for a 12 bore. This must say something surely?

 

2. Winging birds can happen with whatever cartridge at whatever range, this is shooting, it happens. However a single larger pellet that is a 'flyer' will do a far better job than a single puny 7.5 or 8. I'm not disputing that clay cartridge will kill, however unless you centre your pattern every time, they are going to be less effective if you just clip a bird in your pattern.

 

3. At close decoying range unless you are using very open chokes, 7.5's and 8's are going to leave a lot of lead in the bird at that range as the pattern will be very dense. I use 32g 6.5's if they are decoying close and either 6's or 5's in the second barrel where the shot is more likely to be at a fleeting bird which isn't presenting its vitals. This does not mash the bird but it does provide the knock down power at longer range that smaller shot does not provide.

 

4. When it comes to cartridges. Floating Chamber is God. He has been relatively modest on this thread about his involvement in the cartridge industry but the fact he has developed one of the most popular pigeon cartridges on the market which is loaded with no.6 shot speaks volumes.

 

 

FM

[inthedark]

Wow!! What an interesting read. There's just one question left for me - did he buy em, or not?

[Frenchieboy]

my research is done in the field, it beats any bleedin eley diary or watever it is anyway. i tend to believe what i see with my own eyes

 

Yes BM, just like you believed and actually accused me of being unsporting because I shot a rabbit from behind with my 17HMR and took half its head off while as you put it "All it was doing was trying to survive in the cold". Did you do any research on that before you made such a stupid comment?

[Evil Elvis]

I shot a rabbit from behind with my 17HMR and took half its head off

 

Wahts wrong with that? didnt see it coming did he?

[gixer1]

you've worded it wrong there cushat you need to add an A and an E in there and rearrange a bit

 

class!

[Guest cookoff013]

game lead has a antimony content of ~2%, the shells are usually soft & slower.

clay lead has an antomony content of upto 5% the shells can and will be faster. `arder too.

 

the 6`s are more value for money because they have .0001g extra lead in them. more lead is more value.

 

the softer 2% antimony lead is better for game. it contains "more lead goodness"

 

i use cartridges for the job, i just cant be ***** to disrupt logic.

[fortune82]

NOPE you are missing the point!!!!

 

It does matter how MUCH propellant its propelled by!!! the average 28g has between 14 and 16 grains where as the 32g has between 17.5 and 20 grains.

 

Yes they need to increase it make the no 6's go fast enough to kill but by using more proppellant with a denser shot they create more Kinetic energy at the point of impact!!!!

 

As far as ballistics are concerned, i know you sprout a load of old ballistics

 

The amount of propellant in a cartridge has nothing to do with the kinetic energy. Muzzle energy is what decides the kinetic energy of shot. I gauruntee that the majority of 32gram cartridges are slower than the majority of 28 gram cartridges despite what the manufacturers say.

[Guest cookoff013]

The amount of propellant in a cartridge has nothing to do with the kinetic energy. Muzzle energy is what decides the kinetic energy of shot. I gauruntee that the majority of 32gram cartridges are slower than the majority of 28 gram cartridges despite what the manufacturers say.

 

i still get freaked out when real "experienced handloaders" tell me to fill half the hull with powder `cos it wacks `em `ard.

32g loads are slower. adding more powder just wastes money (well up to a certain point.)

as well as producing over pressure cartridge, which could cause `badness`

 

i bet the powder used in the 32 carts are different too. slower powder.

21gram carts have lots of fast burning powder. just to keep the pressure profile. when the first fibre loads came out. there was a silly amount of bloopers.