More stopping power needed

[Catweazle]

Hi All,

 

A question about dropping pigeons quickly.

 

I was shooting over rape today, wind was in my face (quite strong at times ) and my back was to a fence alongside a major road. I put the decoys, dead birds, and some home-made floaters about 25yds out towards a nearly bare patch where the pigeons have murdered the rape.

 

I was frustrated to find that a fair few pigeons were hit and lost a cloud of feathers, but instantly went down-wind low over my head and across the road, helped by the wind. There is a garden centre on the other side of the road, also I must stress that I wasn't taking the birds high, but waiting until they were almost landed, facing away from me as they were landing into the wind.

 

I used 12g Express Sporter 28g No6, and I noticed that the few pigeons I shot side-on dropped like stones, which sort of tells me that my fairly open chokes (IC) were OK at that range. However, too many of the birds that I shot from behind as they dropped into the far side of my pattern lost a bunch of feathers and flew on.

 

Would you advise me to switch to a tighter choke ? Or to try some No5 cartridges, possibly at 34g or 36g to fill in the pattern.

 

I have no problem with recoil, so heavier loads are fine.

 

PS, my shooting mate was using No5 in his 20g and dropping them nicely, but this doesn't help me to decide as he reckons his 20g throws quite a tight pattern even with the 1/4 chokes in.

 

Any advice appreciated.

[swiss.tony]

come up a 1/4 choke and use 30 or 32 gram number 6s will kill em stone dead at 45 yard out

Edited February 16, 2011 by swiss.tony

[HDAV]

ALso pop down a local clay ground and check the pattern on a plate.

[Catweazle]

come up a 1/4 choke and use 30 or 32 gram number 6s will kill em stone dead at 45 yard out

 

This was my first thought too, unfortunately I'm lacking the mid chokes to try, I have Skeet, 2 x IC , Full and Extra Full. One thing though, some of these birds were pretty close to my 25yd decoys and they were losing a cloud of downy feathers and bigger feathers too.

 

I was wondering whether the No6 wasn't up to the job of stopping them quickly when shot from behind. On a normal field I'm sure they would have dropped behind me and I could have picked them up, but this particular position I need to drop them straight away.

 

I have a wanted ad on another site for modified or improved modified chokes, guess I should put one on here too.

 

Thanks for the advice,

 

CW

[Catweazle]

ALso pop down a local clay ground and check the pattern on a plate.

 

I have done a brief pattern test on my own land, although not with these particular cartridges. The birds I shot close to the ground showed the spread of shot at it hit the muddy field, the pattern was no more than 2 feet sometimes, but still the big cloud of feathers followed by the bird heading straight upwards and being helped by the wind over my head and across the road. I know these birds are dead, but perhaps the garden centre won't appreciate them, so I'm looking for a way to stop them quick.

 

I think I'll pop along to my friendly gunshop tomorrow and see what they've got in No5.

[HDAV]

I have done a brief pattern test on my own land, although not with these particular cartridges.

Thats what you need to do, also patterning into the dirt wont work you need a plate (paper) at a known range and compare the pattern of different chokes and cart combinations

[Tim Kelly]

I think 5s have much more knock down power than 6s. Seems to me that 30 or 32g 5s and a bit of choke lead to more crushing kills, or straight misses than wider chokes with 6s.

[Cranfield]

You could well be shooting above them.

The cartridges you are using should kill cleanly at those ranges.

[Catweazle]

The cartridges you are using should kill cleanly at those ranges.

 

I thought so too, in fact the birds crossing were killed cleanly, it was just the birds that were shot going away into the wind that lost a lot of feathers and didn't drop quickly. As I wrote earlier, it wouldn't be a problem in the middle of a big field as I'm sure they dropped behind me, it's just that my back was to a main road.

 

It sounds like this particular venue needs a bit more choke and possibly some No5s.

 

Thanks,

 

CW

[Cranfield]

I thought so too, in fact the birds crossing were killed cleanly, it was just the birds that were shot going away into the wind that lost a lot of feathers and didn't drop quickly. As I wrote earlier, it wouldn't be a problem in the middle of a big field as I'm sure they dropped behind me, it's just that my back was to a main road.

 

It sounds like this particular venue needs a bit more choke and possibly some No5s.

 

Thanks,

 

CW

 

The venue doesn't really have any bearing on the matter.

If you killed crossing birds cleanly at say 25 yards and birds that were flying away from you, into the wind and coming down into your decoys were just getting feathers knocked out at the same range, then IMO you were not hitting them cleanly.

Its quite a common fault to shoot above dropping birds.

Try aiming at their feet.

[yickdaz]

30g 6s 1/4 and 1/2 or in your case 1/4 and full will be more than enough..

[retromlc]

I use 28grm no6 1/4 or half,but mainly 1/4,when i hit em clean they drop like stones,if they don't go down clean then i just haven't hit them square.

[The Burpster]

I understand you may have been limited on where you could set up, but setting up down wind of the kill zone should be your last prfered option.

 

If you can set up directly upwind of your kill zone or at a 1/4 from the wind in either direction is the ideal place to be.

 

If you are shooting the birds from behind the pellets have far more body mass to through before hitting vital organs and in order to get get instant and clean kills this is what you need to do.

 

The birds you have shot from behind will undoubtedly die but they are hardy birds and those you shot will stay alive for a while until they die of blood loss or sceptecemia (or avian equivalent).

 

Shooting them from upwind has 3 main advantages,

 

you can most of the time see them comiing from some distance on thier flight line.

 

They will normally be slowing down to land and flying towrds you as they aproach the pattern.

 

You will be hitting them in the head and chest region with you shot ensuring the quickest kill.

 

 

 

My advice would be choose another area to shoot over while the wind is in that direction. Wind direction is always my FIRST consideration when setting a deek pattern.

 

There is nothing wrong with your carts, chokes or patterns. Basically shooting them up the '***** will not enusre clean kills.

[Catweazle]

I'll try aiming at their feet as suggested, I should have tried it yesterday but I guess I was blinded by the clouds of feathers which convinced me that I was hitting them cleanly. I've also discovered that the chokes from my Mossberg 500a will fit in my 101, so I have a couple more to test the pattern with.

[Catweazle]

I understand you may have been limited on where you could set up, but setting up down wind of the kill zone should be your last prfered option.

 

If you can set up directly upwind of your kill zone or at a 1/4 from the wind in either direction is the ideal place to be.

 

If you are shooting the birds from behind the pellets have far more body mass to through before hitting vital organs and in order to get get instant and clean kills this is what you need to do.

 

The birds you have shot from behind will undoubtedly die but they are hardy birds and those you shot will stay alive for a while until they die of blood loss or sceptecemia (or avian equivalent).

 

Shooting them from upwind has 3 main advantages,

 

you can most of the time see them comiing from some distance on thier flight line.

 

They will normally be slowing down to land and flying towrds you as they aproach the pattern.

 

You will be hitting them in the head and chest region with you shot ensuring the quickest kill.

 

 

 

My advice would be choose another area to shoot over while the wind is in that direction. Wind direction is always my FIRST consideration when setting a deek pattern.

 

There is nothing wrong with your carts, chokes or patterns. Basically shooting them up the '***** will not enusre clean kills.

 

I had no choice where to shoot, we first set up at the other end of the field but the birds weren't coming far enough towards us. Nearby houses and the main road limited us too. My mate was dropping them cleanly using No5s, my No6s weren't so effective but he has a 20g and I use a 12g so I couldn't try his cartridges in my gun.

 

I first thought exactly what you said, that No6 just weren't up to the job of getting through to the vital organs when the birds were flying away from me, the lay of the land meant that the birds were level with my head when I was shooting them. I realise that tightening the choke and hitting them with more No6 probably won't make a lot of difference if that is the case.

 

I'm going again on Friday, and a belt'n'braces approach is my intention. I'll buy some No5s, tighten up the choke and aim lower. I can refine it then.

 

Thanks for all the opinions.

 

CW.

[deny essex]

At the range you were shooting them at I would tend to agree with other comments that accuracy of shot is more the problem than cartridge choke combination, if you were dropping birds cleanly side on at the same range the power is there on impact.

[Alycidon]

Took me a long time to come to 30gr x 5s but once tried there is no going back, most dead in the air, anything flying on is usually dead where it comes back to earth. Very unusual to loose one. 1/4 choke and tighter is ok, not tried them through improved although a mate used them against high pheasants with a skeet gun to good effect.

 

A

[harpoonlouis]

I agree with the comments that your point of aim is off by a tad. If you shoot clays you can get a "kill" from a pretty wayward shot but you won't get a clean kill on a live pigeon with the same shot. A single lesson with a game shooting coach will do you the world of good. A pattern plate is a tricky thing to read carefully as it is taken with a stationary gun and doesn't take into account your real gun mounting consistency.

 

As for stopping power of 5 verses 6's I would agree they deliver considerably more umph so long as you shoot the right piece of sky. Have dropped two partridge this last winter in excess of 60 yards with 5's and less than 1/4 choke, same load took the biggest puff of feathers out of a high flying pigeon last saturday which drew two cries of "that's down" only for it to ****** off completely, point of aim!

[Steve'o]

Hi All,

 

A question about dropping pigeons quickly.

 

I was shooting over rape today, wind was in my face (quite strong at times ) and my back was to a fence alongside a major road. I put the decoys, dead birds, and some home-made floaters about 25yds out towards a nearly bare patch where the pigeons have murdered the rape.

 

I was frustrated to find that a fair few pigeons were hit and lost a cloud of feathers, but instantly went down-wind low over my head and across the road, helped by the wind. There is a garden centre on the other side of the road, also I must stress that I wasn't taking the birds high, but waiting until they were almost landed, facing away from me as they were landing into the wind.

 

I used 12g Express Sporter 28g No6, and I noticed that the few pigeons I shot side-on dropped like stones, which sort of tells me that my fairly open chokes (IC) were OK at that range. However, too many of the birds that I shot from behind as they dropped into the far side of my pattern lost a bunch of feathers and flew on.

 

 

Would you advise me to switch to a tighter choke ? Or to try some No5 cartridges, possibly at 34g or 36g to fill in the pattern.

 

I have no problem with recoil, so heavier loads are fine.

 

PS, my shooting mate was using No5 in his 20g and dropping them nicely, but this doesn't help me to decide as he reckons his 20g throws quite a tight pattern even with the 1/4 chokes in.

 

Any advice appreciated.

 

Hi

 

The cartridges you are using 12g Express Sporter 28g No6, are they Lyalvale Express English Sporter 28gm ?

As I thought , could be wrong that they were only available in shot size 7 1/2 12g

[Catweazle]

I didn't get a chance to do a proper comparison today, the pigeons just weren't about during our time-limited field trip. I'd packed some 32gm No5, but only got off one shot at a crosser about 40yds out, it dropped like a stone but it would have done with anything.

 

A related point: Alan, who took wednesdays pigeons to make pies, says they were carrying a thick layer of yellow fat. Thinking about it now, that's why my floaters were bending so far they were almost touching the ground - they were well fed.

[Catweazle]

Hi

 

The cartridges you are using 12g Express Sporter 28g No6, are they Lyalvale Express English Sporter 28gm ?

As I thought , could be wrong that they were only available in shot size 7 1/2 12g

 

Sorry, my mistake, Express Special, not Sporter ( they're what I use for clays ). I also used some Super Games. All No6.

[motty]

I too think this is an accuracy problem. Any bird hit fairly from behind with 6 shot should easily drop. Remember, the pellets don't necessarily have to hit a vital organ to drop - a shot in the spine will do. Any bird at 25-30 yards should be killed regardless of cartridge/choke combination.

[Ratsmasher]

whats happening is the gizzard is stopping your shot, a heavier load or larger shot would probs do the trick

[sitsinhedges]

It's easier to kill a bird by shooting into its back than by shooting into its chest with all the meat and crop full of food to get thru IMO. Pretty much any cartridge will kill the birds at the ranges you suggest and I would reckon you're just not hitting them well enough.

 

I often have the same problem

[MK38]

As has been said many times, 28/32 g's no6 will kill at all sensible ranges....

It's a small bird and all it's organs are close together , so the chances of missing something vital , every shot, must be nill.... whether you shoot it from the front, side or back .... as long as you hit it !

Clouds of feathers mean very little really , sometimes so many come out you feel you must have hit it hard... only for it to fly away seemingly no worse for wear..

Your missing either above or below... up to you to find out..

Use larger shot if you must, your choice, but remember that larger shot leads to less pattern density, so you might have to fit a tighter choke to maintain this.... which means more accurate shooting anyway....

Whatever you choose, hopefully you'll find a combination that you like and one that suits your style .

 

Dave