Raja Clavata Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 So, an 84 year old relative is in hospital after a stroke. She can breath on her own but is not conscious. The family have agreed with the medical staff's proposal to not feed or hydrate her - so basically waiting for nature to take its course. Three days in now - she went through a rough patch last night but has stabilised since. She is stubborn and robust but it's just a matter of time. I'm only on the periphery of this but close family are by her bedside day and night. Lots of stress and strain for everyone involved. I can't get my head around how this form of long drawn out euthanasia can be deemed acceptable but a lethal dose of some form or the other is illegal. Are my feelings in any way misplaced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 How can it be legal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 No, I watched my Granfather slip slowly down towards that route over many months, it isn`t nice but close support is the best way to help those exiting from this world and after that we can support each other to get over the grief. Prayers are with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 It is a very strange process and one where the line is a very fine one between enough pain relief and stepping over the mark. Its pretty disgusting in a way that people get treated in a way we wouldn't do to a dog. Fingers crossed for you it doesn't take too long, been there and watched it with my grandmother and it was horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albion Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 I agree, starving an animal to death would never be deemed ethical. If the outcome is inevitable then what's the point of dragging it out? A lethal dose of morphine would probably be a pleasant exit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 No...your feelings are not misplaced.Eleven years ago my other half gave birth to twin boys(we already had a daughter aged 3)but one of them was born with a few problems,the biggest threat to him being underdeveloped lungs.Steroids proved helpful in the short term but after 6 weeks he had picked up so many infections in his lungs the specialist told us these were enough to kill him without any other factors,and they and his staff wanted us to take him off the ventilator and let him go basically,as they informed us he was in so much pain. Now,to make this decision was is bad enough for any parent to make(we insisted the Dr give him something to help the moment,but we were in such a state by then it could have been anything)but to actually hold one of your own children while they struggle to die is horrendous beyond belief.He suffocated to death basically. Can this be right? My dog at the vets wouldn't suffer as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) I guess each situation carries a different answer to the same question, when my dad was laying there, I found it hard watching the clock tick by, he was fixed up to a Morphine drip with a regulator to administer the dose, this was horrible just waiting and watching.... at this stage an injestion would have been the kindest thing... Now, my dear old mum has Alzhimers and has got to a stage where she don't always know who I am or what planet she is on, this is mental torture to her as it is to the rest of us watching, she can wash, dress and feed herself but is in a world of her own sat in a room with strangers all not knowing what day of the week it is or just sat there sleeping.... would it be fair or right to give her an injection ? I don't know..what i do know is, that ain't mum sat there but a body with an mental illness...as we all know, if it was a dog, we would say it would be cruel to make it suffer from my heart, I wish mum would just go to sleep I know that may not sound nice, but nor is watching someone who nursed peple with mental illnesses end up loosing thier quality of life and mind Edited June 22, 2011 by jasper3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) Unfortunately the medics can only operate within the law as it stands. Hopefully it will get changed in the not too distant future! I've seen a number of family/friends linger when a swift end was called for. We treat our animals better! All my family/friends know if I'm ever in that position all they need do is hand me a loaded gun...trouble is I suspect there'll be a long queue! Edited June 22, 2011 by Highlander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 My great uncle who was in his 90s and had been in and out of hospital went back in a few weeks back and the doctors fairly bluntly told us they weren't going to give him any treatment. Of course they couched it in nice words but you had to be nieve not to understand what they were saying. He died about three days later. Are they wrong? I don't think so. When life has no meaning and all you are doing is taking up a bed and resources then nature has to take its course. With modern techniques they probably could have kept him alive for months had there been a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 So, an 84 year old relative is in hospital after a stroke. She can breath on her own but is not conscious. The family have agreed with the medical staff's proposal to not feed or hydrate her - so basically waiting for nature to take its course. Three days in now - she went through a rough patch last night but has stabilised since. She is stubborn and robust but it's just a matter of time. I'm only on the periphery of this but close family are by her bedside day and night. Lots of stress and strain for everyone involved. I can't get my head around how this form of long drawn out euthanasia can be deemed acceptable but a lethal dose of some form or the other is illegal. Are my feelings in any way misplaced? No... they should be helped on their way painlessly and with dignity. After living in this god forsaken world for 84 years its the least they deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houseplant Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 A very common situation unfortunately. Certainly legal to withold treatment, whereas the deliberate hastening of death is illegal. Just to be clear, withholding treatment is not euthanasia in the eyes of the law or medical ethicists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canis Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Raja Firstly can I wish your relative a speedy, dignigfied exit! Dehydrating to death seems such a horrible way to end a persons life but it seems that with our laws as they stand the nearest that is acceptable to euthanasia . At least she is unconscious I suppose. 20 years back i was by my my grandmothers bedside when she died in hospital, in lots of pain from liver failure. She'd been in all day in extreme pain and it was clear that the end was less than 48 hours away. Our family doctor( not NHS) came in and quickly arranged a morphine based pain relief which took away the pain and "coincidentally"(this after all a public forum) she died about 20 minutes after recieving the injection. Now this particular doctor was our family doctor since the point that he had qualified and taken the business over from his father who had been the family doctor for years before that. Consequently he was in a position where he knew the family well enough to know that there would be no lawsuit and gave my grandmother the pain relief she needed(again carefully written its a its a public site.) What he actually got from us was gratitude! I know that a lot of fears regarding legislating for euthanasia centre around if it where legalised then older people would feel morally obliged to request it rather than be a financial or physical burden on their familys. Surely Laws could be drafted to protect people in these situations while avoiding retaining the rediculous procedure of "withdrawing treatment" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 I/we watched my mother in law slowly pass away after a stroke, possibly 3 infact, they put her on what they call a "Liverpool" diet i have no idea were the name came from. But it was not a good sight believe me. they informed us that the body closes down bit by bit to the eventual end. I agree with Euthanasia in these circumstances for sure. I wish you all the most heartly wishes. It is a great relief when the last day on earth for them comes, i only wish there was a better way legally, and the morphine can be administered freely. Very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houseplant Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 For those that are interested: http://www.liv.ac.uk/mcpcil/liverpool-care-pathway/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloke Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) Raja, I know what you are going through - I had to go through exactly the same wait with my late wife, 3 years ago. She had MS and had deteriorated to the extent that she no longer recognised us and was totally bedbound for the last 4 years, asleep/semi-conscious for about 20 hours a day. For various medical reasons, they asked me for permission to carry out surgery to her stomach, as she was breathing her food/drinks into her lungs. When I asked what degree of success they expected, they said it was unlikely to be any help, but they did not feel comfortable without considering it, even though she was unlikely to survive the surgery and she would more than likely have the same problems afterwards. My wife and I had discussed possibilities like this many years ago, following her initial diagnosis and she had made me promise that if she became effectively in a vegetative state, I wouldn't let the doctors keep her alive just because they could, so I discussed it with the surgeon and it was agreed to discontinue feeding/hydration. She lived for 11 days, although unconscious for the last 4 and when the end came she appeared peaceful. Like you, I question the sanity that allowed this, when assisted dying is not allowed, but I genuinely believe my decision was the right one, and I have to live with that. I would not have hesitated if it was a pet, the final act of kindness, but society feels fit to judge us if it is a human - madness. My thoughts are with you and your family at this sad time, take care of yourselves. Edited June 22, 2011 by Bloke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted June 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Well wishes and kind thoughts are acknowledged and appreciated. My heart goes out to those that have lost a loved one in the similar, especially if that departure was premature. As has already been cited - this is the Liverpool Care Pathway "method". Fortunately I feel I am able to detach myself from the emotions of this as a relative and objectively focus on what is going on. I was already aware of "treatment withdrawal" and witnessed it with the passing of an Uncle earlier this year who died shortly after the machines and drugs were withdrawn but I cannot readily associate withdrawal of food and liquids in the same light. If I "withdrew" the same "treatment" from any of my pets I would be liable to prosecution. Based on the brief research I've undertaken, death by dehydration seems to be an appalling way to die, in comparison starvation is relatively straightforward (but takes longer). FUBAR imho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Lots of sad stories on here. I feel qualified to comment in this having watched my father die of Alzheimer's/stroke/kidney failure three years ago and my mum of Alzheimer's/cancer earlier this year. Firstly Alzheimer's is nasty BUT imho it is worse for those people caring for the suffer than the sufferer themselves. My dad in particular was in a world of his own and was happy to believe what he believed. He only got nasty when you (or in particular my mum) tried to argue with him. No point. Just agree and nod no matter how stupid he was being. As for the care for the terminally ill I believe we have got it right most of the time. I wouldn't want to be in country where the old were just euthanised because they were inconvenient. You know that could so easily happen. My experience of the treatment of my parents was that the medical staff did the best they could to treat with drugs, pain relief and nutrition until a decision was made that it was better to 'let them go'. They then handed over to another team who explained the process (liverpool Pathway Care) and what it means. Pain relief is continued so there is no pain. Dehydration is interesting as, so it was explained, has no symptoms other than a dry mouth so swabbing the mouth helps alleviate that. In summary whilst I fully appreciate that whilst it isn't nice to watch the patient is probably not suffering as much as you and I don't think it is undignified to go this way. The only gripe with my mums treatment was the hospital trying to insist that she should be sent home as she had at some point in her confused state said she wanted to go home. This was despite her being on her last legs and the journey would have killed her. We resisted and as it was she passed away no more than three hours later My prayers are with anybody going through this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ack-ack Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 My only issue with Euthanasia is that should it ever become legal over here there may be ill / disabled / elderly that feel they are a burden on their families and opt for it long before their time. I'd hate the thought of any of my less able relatives or friends thinking they were selfish for wanting to live out their years naturally even if they were a massive burden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Perhaps legal on certain grounds, with 3 doctors agreeing or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ack-ack Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Perhaps legal on certain grounds, with 3 doctors agreeing or something? Defo, there would have to be a very stringent assesment process of each case. It would have to be in a dignified establishment as well. Some of the stories I've read about the Dignitas set up make me feel physically sick. They couldnt have come up with a more ironic name by the sounds of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) So, an 84 year old relative is in hospital after a stroke. She can breath on her own but is not conscious. The family have agreed with the medical staff's proposal to not feed or hydrate her - so basically waiting for nature to take its course. Three days in now - she went through a rough patch last night but has stabilised since. She is stubborn and robust but it's just a matter of time. I'm only on the periphery of this but close family are by her bedside day and night. Lots of stress and strain for everyone involved. I can't get my head around how this form of long drawn out euthanasia can be deemed acceptable but a lethal dose of some form or the other is illegal. Are my feelings in any way misplaced? I cant believe im reading this. So, ill tell you about my past few days. My mother in law had a massive stroke in October last year, and was confined to a wheel chair due to loss of physical ability. Im sure most of you have read my thread from the monday when i told you i had just got back from the Kielder forest? well, that was for her as its disabled access. So, after we dropped her back at the residential home on monday, we decided to go for dinner as we had not done anythig for fathers day. As we sat down to order, my phone rang, and a voice on the other end told me i needed to get to the home, as my mother in law had stopped breathing. When myself, my wife and brother in law got there, the paramedics were working on her with the de-fib kit. Sadly, she has been eating her dinner and had a massive heart attack. This caused her to choke and die. They restarted her heart, and took her to the hospital. About 30 mins after we got there, the doctor came into the family room to tell us that she wouldnt pull through, and had no brain function. She was sent to a side room on a ward, and all drips and lines removed apart from a morphine driver. This was monday. At 2pm today, she finaly died. Having to watch a loved one, who is brain dead, slip away is the most horrid thing. I asked the doctors if they could do anything to speed this up, but they refused, as although they agreed, its against the law. So, ive watched both my in laws suffer when it could have been ended quicker and importantly, painless. Two in three months!!!! What can i say, the world is a very cruel place and the laws make it worse. Im feeling gutted, but happy its over for her and she is now with her other half. Why they cant change the laws i dont know. Trust me mate, your feelings are right. Edited June 22, 2011 by MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vole Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) It is a difficult ethical issue that arises a lot . I guess if someone who is so sick all they can do is breathe and maintain bodily functions would have to be artificially fed and hydrated . This means drips , hence a needle in the arm , tube up the nose or tube into the stomach . When the breathing is insufficient you can be put on a ventilator . There are drawbacks with all of this in that prolonging life can be agonizing for the family . From what I see , with intelligent use of sedation and pain relief , any unpleasant symptoms of dehydration and malnourishment are not experienced . Like after a car accident where people feel little pain initially , I think the body has its own coping mechanism . The experts in giving people a decent death , I feel are the Hospices . We in acute care have much to learn from them as we often try to deny a natural timely death by interfering . The last I heard they do not feed with tubes or needles , but they do use drugs correctly to help someones death , as a side effect it may shorten life but is strictly not intended to do so . Sorry you are going through this . Ps . Even patients who are close to death often hate to have tubes up the nose . Edited June 22, 2011 by vole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 MM thoughts are with you and your family, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highseas Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Unfortunately the medics can only operate within the law as it stands. Hopefully it will get changed in the not too distant future! I've seen a number of family/friends linger when a swift end was called for. We treat our animals better! All my family/friends know if I'm ever in that position all they need do is hand me a loaded gun...trouble is I suspect there'll be a long queue! i hear you mate, its bloody sick how we can do this to people and not to animals i i said the the rspcs oh its oh them birds have rota and will die any how so ile let them starve to death their would be bloody uproar :blink: :blink: if i am ever in this state or at a age where i can no longer wipe my own **** then for christ sake shoot me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloke Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 MM - my sympathy to you and your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.