Is this the reaction of a grown-up religion?

[Flashman]

I appreciate that this is a contentious topic, but the following column was printed in today's Times. I think the article raised a valid point, but that's not the point of posting it. My difficulty is that even mentioning the overreaction highlighted in the article would no doubt provoke outrage: it's a bit like a super-injunction - the first rule is not to even talk about it.

 

See what you think...

 

 

 

"We can’t discuss or depict Islam without causing mortal offence. Surely 1.8 billion Muslims can’t all be victims

The young man with the beard and the fresh face has made his own YouTube film and for nine minutes delivers a confident and unbroken speech to camera. He uses the tagline TheAlHaque and is, I’d guess, British-born to a Pakistani family. He is talking animatedly about something he’s watched. “It was such a mockery he made of our religion,” he says. “It was very, very disturbing and very hurtful to 1.8 billion people. This programme should not have aired.”

I suppose that TheAlHaque might have been part of a phenomenon that a fellow columnist introduced to me and others this week. A Muslim himself, he criticised the appearance of Tony Blair on BBC Radio, where the former Prime Minister was talking about the sometimes violent reactions to that anti-Islamic video shot in someone’s California backyard and uploaded on to the internet. Mr Blair is, wrote this man, “one of the biggest provokers of global Muslim anger”.

My mind couldn’t get beyond that phrase. I was stuck on it like someone with baggy trousers climbing over a barbed wire fence. “Global Muslim anger.” The anger of Muslims all over the globe. There are up to two billion Muslims on the planet and most countries have some Muslims in them. What do they all have to be angry about? The rich Muslims, the poor Muslims, the devout and the dilatory, the African and Saudi Muslims, the Chechens and Turks, the Iranians and Filipinos, the majority Malaysians and the minority Burmese Rohingyas?

And what “global anger” could they lay claim to that couldn’t be equally invoked by Buddhists, Hindus and Christians (I’d say Jews, but there aren’t really enough of them to be global any more), let alone women or the disabled or black people? I asked and the only answer was the counter-question, did I really believe that Muslims had nothing to be aggrieved about? Some do, like the Rohingyas. But globally, qua Muslim?

The film that TheAlHaque was objecting to in the name of the angry 1.8 billion was not, as you may have expected, The Innocence of Muslims, the dreck unter-twaddle lens-pullings of a West Coast fraudster in whose repudiation several have been killed in various places all over the world. No, it was the historian Tom Holland’s Channel 4 look at some mysteries surrounding the earliest days of Islam.

Holland’s thesis — fleshed out in a recent lengthy and careful book — suggested that the growing Arab Empire of the 7th century might have given rise to Islam the religion, and not the other way around. I hardly need to say that similar speculation about the origins of other religions, including Christianity, are almost as old as TV. TheAlHaque’s problem was that, in his view, Islam was unsusceptible to such an approach. “This historian needs to understand one simple thing,” he said. “The base to our religion is not history. Our base is revelation from God.”

OK. All right. Fine. No worries. That’s your view. This is mine. Except TheAlHaque also says this: “He [Holland] has gone around and he’s speaking to some Jews on that programme. It was such a mockery of the 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. You can’t just go around making a mockery of someone’s belief.”

Questioning becomes ”mockery”. “Mockery” should not be allowed. A fortnight ago Channel 4 cancelled a special screening of Holland’s programmes after threats of violence. Today police stand outside the office of the French magazine Charlie Hebdo because it has once again published cartoons depicting Muhammad.

On the website of Press TV, the Iranian station, a Dr Ismail Salami (“an internationally published author of several books and hundreds of articles, Shakespearean, Iranologist and lexicographer”) connects the backyard movie with Holland’s film as part of a “co-ordinated effort” linked to the “Zionist Jews” who — in his imagination — fund the Islamophobic English Defence League.

The week that Salman Rushdie’s memoir of the events leading up to the threats on his life and his years “on the run” is published seems a good time to ask whether we can really carry on like this. According to many, we cannot discuss Islam, depict it or write about it except in certain very circumscribed ways without causing mortal offence.

This is despite the fact that it plays a far bigger role in our lives in countries such as Britain than it did 30 years ago. And worse, in a world where the mobility of communication outstrips the mobility of understanding, we are now at hazard of “global Muslim anger” every time a bongo-brain in a Moosejaw shed uploads an idiocy involving something Islamic.

Of course, there are elaborate explanations for this situation that seek to place the blame for what seems to be impossible behaviour by some Muslims on to just about anyone else. One that I thought was worth bringing to readers’ attention is from the Islam convert and scholar Myriam Francois- Cerrah. It was published by The Huffington Post and others last week.

What Ms Francois-Cerrah argues is that the bonkers film “was the straw that broke the camel’s back”. So not the film after all. Not the cartoons. Not The Satanic Verses. “Broken by poverty,” she writes, “threatened by drones, caught in the war between al-Qaeda and the US, to many Arab Muslims the film represents an attack on the last shelter of dignity — sacred beliefs — when all else has been desecrated ... When your country has been bombed, you’ve lost friends and family, possibly your livelihood and home, dignity is pretty much all you have left ... These protests aren’t about a film — they’re about the totality of ways in which Muslims have felt humiliated over decades.”

Who bombed the Sydney Muslims who fought the Aussie police last week? What drones threatened the Tunisian Islamists who attacked a school? What American deprived a Libyan militiaman of dignity? How did poverty force the Qataris to protest against a video? Why don’t Cambodian Buddhists burn Korans in retaliation for the blasting of the Bamiyan Buddhas? Why has no Muslim leader in my experience ever, ever, ever mentioned how the British and Americans saved Muslims in Kosovo from genocide?

Of course Muslims are not the only people whose leaders harness and exploit the reactionary emotional power of grievance. But the idea of “global Muslim anger” relies on the seductive trick of placing yourself always in the position of the done-to and not the doing, even when you run a quarter of the countries on the planet. It’s not global anger. It’s global adolescence."

[mudpatten]

_{As a spokesman for Islam stated in a concilliatory response to the article, "Kill them, kill the infidel. Kill them all!"}

[guest1957]

Some Christians protested outside screenings of 'Life of Brian', it was even banned by certain traditional local authorities. That didn't mean that the majority of Christians were against it, many attended and laughed. In the same vein, many Muslims aren't outraged and offended as the minority would have us believe. Look at Citizen Khan, written muslims and performed by muslims and poking fun at their lifestyle in Britain. Some do have a sense of humour, it is sad that the ones who don't are so dangerous.

[MM]

Islam, judaism, caththththtoolosism, its all a load of rubbish. Our religion is better than yours!!! What they all seem to be missing, is the fact they are all wrong. Its all made up garbage. The only one that seems to be peaceful is the baldies. (monks, bald heads, robes.... just cant think of the name, mental block). They dont seem religious, just very "in tune" with the world. Im sorry, but religion is just gangs. Your gang is pants, ours has bigger beards....etc...etc... How can you be offended by someone saying things about what you believe? Im offended by their beards, and terrible pyjamas, but i wouldnt go and burn the Pakistani embassy to the ground. Bob Marley!! Now there is a religious bloke. Why not follow in his footsteps. He loved a bit of religion, and all it made him do was chill out, write bangin tunes and smoke pot. Islam is a bit too loud for me. Im not one for all that noise, and burning flags in the street. Who wants to go to church five times a day? Whats that all about?? Get over it. Who are the other blokes??? Turbans an all that gear. They seem alright as well. Im far too busy with what goes on in my house to mess about with screaming muslims.

In the words of Bob.............................."One Love!"

[oscarsdad]

Kind of agree - the only religion I have any respect at all for is Buddhism. They don't try to criticise all of the other religions or cause any wars.

[Sprackles]

Gods didn't make men, Men made Gods

End of.....religion stinks.

[Hamster]

Guest1057/MM/Sprackles, you're all right.

 

Flashman, sorry but I cherish life too much to read through your entire post but will just say there are 1.8 billion people in far corners that are thought to be Muslim but most are not, many think the whole thing is funny as hell if it weren't for the lives lost. I would stake my life on the majority of so called Muslims not ever having read the Koran or be able to recite 1% of it, it is written in Arabic and supposedly only allowed to be read out in that language so already non Arabs won't even understand what the hell it is they're hearing or rendering.

 

I have next to no knowledge of it, far less in fact than many BNP members it seems.

[Billy.]

Grown ups with imaginary friends are dangerous.

[al4x]

Grown ups with imaginary friends are dangerous.

 

so thats half this forum then

[Pigeon Paul]

Grown ups with imaginary friends are dangerous.

 

Could not agree more!

[four-wheel-drive]

You are very lucky my friend when I tried to start a conversation on this subject without being racist or saying anything at all bad about Muslims the next time I came on the whole thing was deleted so I hope that you have better luck with it than I did.

[ferguson_tom]

_{As a spokesman for Islam stated in a concilliatory response to the article, "Kill them, kill the infidel. Kill them all!"}

 

I thought that was on Team America

[lumpy]

My opinion of any religion is they are nothing more than cults however the islamic faith is one that condones peadophilia, honor killing (often their own children), The inhumane slaughter of animal's (halal meat) not to mention they promote Hate, death and destruction to anyone who disagree's with their pathetic belief. In my book that makes them nothing more than parasitic vermin !

[Billy.]

My opinion of any religion is they are nothing more than cults however the islamic faith is one that condones peadophilia, honor killing (often their own children), The inhumane slaughter of animal's (halal meat) not to mention they promote Hate, death and destruction to anyone who disagree's with their pathetic belief. In my book that makes them nothing more than parasitic vermin !

 

I'm pretty certain Christianity (Old testament) condones most of those beliefs.

 

One min, I'll dig up some passages for you.

 

Basically, here's my virgin daughter, rape her, but let me be.

 

 

Judges 19:23-29

 

King James Version (KJV)

 

²³ And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.

²⁴ Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

²⁵ But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

²⁶ Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.

²⁷ And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.

²⁸ And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ***, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

²⁹ And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

 

Believers of other religions will be 'doomed'

 

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

 

Kill non believers

 

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

 

If you sin, God will kill your children.

 

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

Edited September 20, 2012 by Billy.

[al4x]

My opinion of any religion is they are nothing more than cults however the islamic faith is one that condones peadophilia, honor killing (often their own children), The inhumane slaughter of animal's (halal meat) not to mention they promote Hate, death and destruction to anyone who disagree's with their pathetic belief. In my book that makes them nothing more than parasitic vermin !

 

are they more parasitic if they live in Birmingham vs being at home? or does it make no difference?

[lumpy]

I'm pretty certain Christianity (Old testament) condones most of those beliefs.

 

One min, I'll dig up some passages for you.

 

Basically, here's my virgin daughter, rape her, but let me be.

 

 

 

Kill believers of other religions

 

 

 

Kill non believers

 

 

 

If you sin, God will kill your children.

 

I never said they were the ONLY one's with pathetic belief's, but hey if the best use of your day is to read bible's just to add more vermin to my list crack on

[oscarsdad]

 

 

are they more parasitic if they live in Birmingham vs being at home? or does it make no difference?

 

When they are in brum they are living off our taxes and at home they are not, so of course it does.

[lumpy]

are they more parasitic if they live in Birmingham vs being at home? or does it make no difference?

 

Nope makes no difference to me where they live Vermin is Vermin

Edited September 20, 2012 by lumpy

[Raja Clavata]

Guys, the OP was not asking for your opinion on religion...

 

In answer to the original question - don't know why but upon reading this article I suspected the author might not have the impartiality one might expect. Alas after a brief lookse it appears the author is affiliated with and possibly of Jewish faith. Whilst he may have a point about the adolescent nature of the grievances of Islam it seems a bit rich to me coming from such an individual.

 

If I'm wrong about him then I unreservedly apologise and personally have no anti-Semitic agenda here (or anywhere else).indeed some of my dearest friends are of Jewish faith.

 

[Scully]

Islam, judaism, caththththtoolosism, its all a load of rubbish. Our religion is better than yours!!! What they all seem to be missing, is the fact they are all wrong. Its all made up garbage. The only one that seems to be peaceful is the baldies. (monks, bald heads, robes.... just cant think of the name, mental block). They dont seem religious, just very "in tune" with the world. Im sorry, but religion is just gangs. Your gang is pants, ours has bigger beards....etc...etc... How can you be offended by someone saying things about what you believe? Im offended by their beards, and terrible pyjamas, but i wouldnt go and burn the Pakistani embassy to the ground. Bob Marley!! Now there is a religious bloke. Why not follow in his footsteps. He loved a bit of religion, and all it made him do was chill out, write bangin tunes and smoke pot. Islam is a bit too loud for me. Im not one for all that noise, and burning flags in the street. Who wants to go to church five times a day? Whats that all about?? Get over it. Who are the other blokes??? Turbans an all that gear. They seem alright as well. Im far too busy with what goes on in my house to mess about with screaming muslims.

In the words of Bob.............................."One Love!"

I like this post.

How anyone can become 'offended' to the point of killing someone is beyond me.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Scully

[andypaint]

My opinion of any religion is they are nothing more than cults however the islamic faith is one that condones peadophilia, honor killing (often their own children), The inhumane slaughter of animal's (halal meat) not to mention they promote Hate, death and destruction to anyone who disagree's with their pathetic belief. In my book that makes them nothing more than parasitic vermin !

 

Absolutely spot on, here here. It's about time we stood up to Islam. At the moment everyone is scared of upseting them.

Edited September 20, 2012 by andypaint

[MM]

Absolutely spot on, here here. It's about time we stood up to Islam. At the moment everyone is scared of upseting them.

 

I think we should stand up to all of em and tell em to pack it in. Why not sit in the woods and have a smoke. The great Harry Patch said religion was a stupid thing to fight over, and that they all should sit down and talk around a table like gents.

 

[jasper3]

Because we are not part of that culture, we can not begin to understand it,

many of the followers in a religion have nothing, but look to another life, this is because they are told this from birth,and know no different

 

count yourselves lucky we have a choice whether to believe or not

 

I personally do not believe in any god, but i have no problem with those who do

 

there is just one point made all to often that I can't get my head around......

many have said..they do not believe, But if there is a god then after living a good clean life they will hopefully be accepted,,

now the religious look on this is a major No No.

.so surely that must mean that their God can only be an illusion, because if he/she was real , then everyone would see him/her after death

[Gimlet]

Kind of agree - the only religion I have any respect at all for is Buddhism. They don't try to criticise all of the other religions or cause any wars.

 

Could it be a coincidence that Buddhism is also the only major world religion with no belief in a God?

[Billy.]

I must admit, I look at the walking postboxes and I just see a repressed woman, living under the fear of men and a God.

 

We are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success - some people need to start ******* acting like it.