Pump Club

[stevethejeep]

On 27/01/2022 at 18:21, Downforce said:

You’ve already digitised several pages by taking pictures but depending on how many pages there are, you could just walk it down to your nearest printers and ask them to scan it for you 

I don’t think that’s normally expensive but I’d be happy to chip in if I can get a copy 🙂 

D

I take your point Downforce, but there are 258 pages !

[impala59]

Hi Steve 

Thanks for the link, should have found that one myself! just being super lazy I guess!  Works out at about £24 (half is postage from US) less than 10p a page, cheap photocopy rate for a produced book, bargain!

Yes you do recognise your old DS! it is getting a lot of use and is much admired by my fellow PSG'ers!

Edited January 30, 2022 by impala59

[impala59]

Or........

as I just found, £11 from A****n, even better bargain 

[stevethejeep]

13 hours ago, impala59 said:

Or........

as I just found, £11 from A****n, even better bargain 

 

Just now, stevethejeep said:

Pleased to be of assistance I think I found a couple of UK based suppliers. The only reason I sold the DS was because there's not a PSG range anywhere in the West Country and I'd got a 1897 it's be difficult to justify two Sec 1 pumps to the Old Bill ! Delighted it's gone to such a good home and you are enjoying it. 

Regards

Steve

 

[impala59]

The book arrived from A****n in two days and is a really interesting addition to my small collection of publications, for £11 it’s a no brainier! Obviously a reprint but sized up for large format it’s another valuable reference tool. 
After a little browsing, I was intrigued to learn that the US Army in 1942 saw “slam firing” or “slamming “as a fault, not a feature and in fact actively discouraged the practice, without saying the actual words, also stating that mechanisms in the Remington M31, M11 and Sportsman, together with the Savage M720 did not have this “fault “ (due to having a disconnector) (my terminology not a quote)

The fact that all the others do have the “fault “ is noticeable in the absence of mentioning it! It is my opinion that as most simple sporting guns of the era did not have disconnectors, to “slam fire” was simply an operator error and that the average GI should know better! 
Nonetheless, a fascinating glimpse into past times and well worth £11! Although I do covet your original Steve!

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by impala59

[theshootist]

I have always thought the stories of purposeful slam firing were nonsense. The soldier would just end up missing a lot and no army would have trained that in! 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

6 minutes ago, theshootist said:

I have always thought the stories of purposeful slam firing were nonsense. The soldier would just end up missing a lot and no army would have trained that in! 

But, the "slam fire" was used in the confines of a trench.

[Scully]

4 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But, the "slam fire" was used in the confines of a trench.

Mine wasn’t! 😂

[theshootist]

8 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But, the "slam fire" was used in the confines of a trench.

Have you got anything to evidence that? I just can't see it being any advantage, in fact you'd be more likely to miss. 

[impala59]

It is my opinion that “slam fire” was potentially/possibly used on occasion  in combat by nervous, fired up, maybe frightened troops when entering enemy trenches. Trained or not, it must have been a seriously traumatic, terrifying experience that thankfully, most of our generation has not had to experience. The Winchester M97 (a slam firer)was christened, unofficially, the trench broom by the troops, for its ability to sweep a trench clear. There is, also, I believe, a somewhat mystical aura surrounding the “combat” shotgun, the US were/are the only large volume user of shotguns. The famous complaint by the Germans during WW1 regarding the use of shotguns served only to enhance their image/usage. I actually think that this maybe created an urban myth which encompasses the whole slam fire debate, based upon history, war stories and the lack of hard facts. One can imagine the heroic doughboys in 1917 diving into the trenches of the hun slamming away for all they’re worth. It paints a vivid picture. Anyone who owns one of these shotguns, knows that to control it , slamming away is not the way to go, but our peers with disconnectors are impressed at the potential firepower we possess and who are we to deny it!  I am sure the debate will rage on, but as a frequent user of a few shotguns  that have this capability/liability/fault (depending upon your opinion) I always release the trigger between shots for safe, controlled and accurate shooting.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

9 hours ago, theshootist said:

Have you got anything to evidence that? I just can't see it being any advantage, in fact you'd be more likely to miss. 

In a narrow trench coming round a corner and expecting to meet the enemy.

[impala59]

In an attempt to throw more light on this subject I contacted Bruce Canfield in the US, the renowned author and collector of small arms

He graciously sent this response;

 

Hi Roland,  there were only a couple of U.S. military shotguns (chiefly the Ithaca M37 and Winchester M97) that lacked a disconnector and could be capable of “slam firing.” This practice was not encouraged by the military as it was undesirable for several reasons including excessive wear and tear to the action and poor fire discipline. Even with a shotgun it is much better to attempt a semblance of aiming at a target rather than just trying to fire as fast as possible. Since shotguns take so long to reload as compared to standard infantry weapons using up ammunition somewhat indiscriminately and rapidly  isn’t a good idea. There is a reason the majority of shotgun don’t have this capability.

 

     Hope this helps. Take care, Bruce

[stevethejeep]

If I can add my 3penny worth, to the slam-fire debate, and owning Winchester and Ithaca 'slam firers'.

I can see no practical use for this function militarily, unless the enemy was in almost bayonet range in a confined area, such as a trench or bunker etc. The other possible use might be in a suppressive fire role, where the objective is to fill the air with as much flying metal as possible, to make the enemy keep their heads down, whilst maneouvers by other troops take place against them. The threat might be more perceived than actual. 

TM 9-285 states on page 17 relating to 'operation' of the Winchester 1897' 

"Caution During these operations the fingers should remain out side the trigger guard" and later on "Slamming of the mechanism, however, should be avoided. When the gun is being fired as a repeater, all pressure should be removed from the trigger while operating". 

Thus stated the US War Department in September 1942.

 

Seldom required these days even in the heat of a 'flurry' stand at the local clay club ??

Cheers

[TIGHTCHOKE]

18 minutes ago, stevethejeep said:

If I can add my 3penny worth, to the slam-fire debate, and owning Winchester and Ithaca 'slam firers'.

I can see no practical use for this function militarily, unless the enemy was in almost bayonet range in a confined area, such as a trench or bunker etc.

Exactly!

[Downforce]

I agree that maybe in a confined space slam fire might give a fraction of a second benefit but not much else usefulness why wouldn’t you just use a Browning Auto that has to be quicker than pumping they were around in 1900 weren’t they

Bought the manual from Hamazzon 

Only had a quick look and liking it

Thanks Steve for sharing 

Still looking for an 1897 but a bit skint right now - I’m sure I could find some cash for something somewhere maybe down the back of the sofa  🙂

D

[enfieldspares]

On 04/02/2022 at 02:33, impala59 said:

One can imagine the heroic doughboys in 1917 diving into the trenches of the hun slamming away for all they’re worth.

If they could they actually walked along the top of the trench. One either side. True.

[Sweet11-87]

afaik ive only ever heard of 1 source and for the life of me i cant find it. and it wasnt so much in the trenches as they moved through it was used as a "mag dump" method so to speak into dark smokey dug outs and sleeping quarters after a few  granades had gone in. basically a mop up incase anything was still moving then on to the next one.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Sweet11-87

[stevethejeep]

Slightly off topic, but there are apocryphal tales of US troops in WW1 armed with Winchester '97 trench guns or Browning Auto 5's being tasked with shooting down incoming thrown German grenades.  Is unenviable job was given to troops who had experience of game bird or skeet shooting.

It must have concentrated the mind somewhat to stand there with an incoming grenade flying towards you, with a fraction of a second to aim, track fire and follow through before it lands on the ground close by an spoils you day !  I'll try to find a photo of this event actually taking place

 

[impala59]

I have read of this practice also, I believe in Bruce Canfields US Combat shotguns book.

I must confess to instinctive ducking on occasion with missed incoming clays, grenades up the ante a bit!

its also worth mentioning the valuable practice that gunners, ground, ship and air based got from shooting clays with the slightly less (now, aesthetically and monetarily) valuable martial shotguns. Still always on the lookout for interesting stuff and love the history and debate around our chosen hobby

 

[Sco77w]

On 18/01/2022 at 14:04, Mud said:

I know I shouldn't but, how much is the supernova please? Cheers

It’s in the sales section but I’ve PM’d you too. 

[Sco77w]

On 27/01/2022 at 13:20, stevethejeep said:

Hello from a dull Devon,

                                       Whilst in the midst of a protracted coterminous renewal (a six month saga!!) I came across this little gem from September 1942 giving detailed instructions for the use, maintenance, stripping and reassembly of these shotguns for use by the US Army. I've been interested in US WW2 vehicles, militaria and firearms for 50+years but never come across this before.  Sorry I can't show you more of this fascinating and relevant (to me)  historic publication

Hope 'pumpers' all enjoy

I got a reproduced copy from Amazon just before Christmas for about £11

[theshootist]

On 12/02/2022 at 10:26, stevethejeep said:

Slightly off topic, but there are apocryphal tales of US troops in WW1 armed with Winchester '97 trench guns or Browning Auto 5's being tasked with shooting down incoming thrown German grenades.  Is unenviable job was given to troops who had experience of game bird or skeet shooting.

It must have concentrated the mind somewhat to stand there with an incoming grenade flying towards you, with a fraction of a second to aim, track fire and follow through before it lands on the ground close by an spoils you day !  I'll try to find a photo of this event actually taking place

 

I read this too somewhere. I would rather take cover. An ounce of shot isn't going to detonate a grenade any faster, and if it did then you might be showered with an air burst. It might deflect the grenade away from you, but where to?

[impala59]

From Canfields 'Combat Shotguns'

[Scrumbag]

I have my doubts on this.

And there is some interesting experimentation done here: 

 

 

 

[impala59]

One wonders if the pigeons knew which side they were on! Do carrier pigeons taste good and would they be seen as 'fair game' to supplement bully beef and biscuits?  On that note we return firmly to Pigeon Watch!