CharlieT Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Not necassarily. The owner of land which is let to a tenant is a person who has a legal 'interest' in the land but is NOT an occupier, the tenant is. Whether someone is an occupier rests on what level of control they have over the land, not merely whether they have some legal interest in it. J. Please read my post again. There is a distinct difference between the wording I carefully chose and the twist you are putting on them in your usual effort to belittle someones post. Particularly bearing in mind the portion of my post you conveniently failed to quote. And just to set the record straight, occupancy is not necessarily restricted to one person. I did not say an occupier is someone who has some legal interest in the land, What I actually said, when trying to define occupier in simple terms, was "An occupier is someone who has an interest in the land that is enforceable in law" Obviously the law I am referring to, which is the one we are discussing, is the law on occupancy. Therefore, bearing this in mind I find your post and comments vexatious and pointless to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Charlie T - I'm glad someone recognises the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 We have come up against things like this many times over the years, nobody will put anything in writing so you get the perfect circle of confusion, Confusion is very effective at tying everyone up. "I was told....." is no argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent_keith Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 what i was told by my fire arms officer was. you are allowed to lend your mate a shotgun if you are with him and you have in writing by the land owner that you have permission to shoot there Bringing up this particular can of worms again, I have just been told the same by my FEO Met police? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Bringing up this particular can of worms again, I have just been told the same by my FEO Met police? Oh, gawd, there's none so blind! I'm sorry, but your FEO is wrong. Ask him/her if they'd kindly put that in writing. Then, if you'd kindly post the letter on here that would be an end to it - the lacking precedent would be set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 so who is the legal occupier of land.1 the owner.2 a person who has the land on lease or contract.(subject to any conditions regarding sporting rights etc.and the documents are proper legal recognised papers.a person who has permission to shoot over the land written or verbal is in no way an occupier as these can be revoked at a moments notice and normally only refers to a specific person.the unpaid casual shooting over private land is a privilege given by the owner/farmer and holds very little weight in the eyes of the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent_keith Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Oh, gawd, there's none so blind! I'm sorry, but your FEO is wrong. Ask him/her if they'd kindly put that in writing. Then, if you'd kindly post the letter on here that would be an end to it - the lacking precedent would be set. Steady? I've also been told by the same FEO that as I want to apply for a FAC for a .22 LR it is ok to use my friends rifle on his permission under his supervision until I gain experience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good shot? Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) I feel sure that an awful lot of PW shotgun and Fac holders will have, it seems broken 'this ruling' including me several times. Just allow common sense to come into play and if a mate etc is interested enough to try out your gun/rifle in your company and on land that you have permission to be on, he can then apply for is own cert if he enjoys it, isn't that how a lot of us got into the sport. As long as the other party is not banned from doing so,I see no problem and will continue to 'take my chance' knowing the vagaries of the answers to the question. Edited June 13, 2014 by Good shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Steady? I've also been told by the same FEO that as I want to apply for a FAC for a .22 LR it is ok to use my friends rifle on his permission under his supervision until I gain experience? You certainly may if he is the occupier and you use it in his or one of his servants' presence, otherwise, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 I feel sure that an awful lot of PW shotgun and Fac holders will have, it seems broken 'this ruling' including me several times. Just allow common sense to come into play and if a mate etc is interested enough to try out your gun/rifle in your company and on land that you have permission to be on, he can then apply for is own cert if he enjoys it, isn't that how a lot of us got into the sport. As long as the other party is not banned from doing so,I see no problem and will continue to 'take my chance' knowing the vagaries of the answers to the question. Yep, a little bit of common sense goes a long way. The one problem we have in this thread, though, is the wording - or one word in particular - of the OP. Some have replied with that in mind. The word being, "legally". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttfjlc Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Oh how I love grey areas! Mine was made clear to me by my feo regarding my son joining a wildfowling club, that he must have his own certificate as I'm NOT the occupier of the land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent_keith Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 You certainly may if he is the occupier and you use it in his or one of his servants' presence, otherwise, no. No he is not the occupier but a paid wildlife controller, I wonder if that's the difference? but the way it was explained to me by my FEO that if I wanted an open ticket which I do, I had to gain as much experience over different ground as possible and document it for him before he would approve my application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjimlad Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 The law and the Police Guidance offer some help with this question which seems to come up every week. See here for the information on shotguns.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/262215/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_v6_Nov_2013.pdf See page 40 paras 6.18-6.20 which set out that it is not clear whether an occupier extends to the likes of someone like me who has written permission which can be withdrawn at any time, and that it probably does not cover people in my situation. If you lease the shooting then you are a lawful occupier. If you own the land AND occupy it then the same. I would not want myself and my pal to be prosecuted & become the test case for the definition of occupier when it would be relatively simple to take that pal to a clay ground for some proper experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 The law and the Police Guidance offer some help with this question which seems to come up every week. See here for the information on shotguns.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/262215/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_v6_Nov_2013.pdf See page 40 paras 6.18-6.20 which set out that it is not clear whether an occupier extends to the likes of someone like me who has written permission which can be withdrawn at any time, and that it probably does not cover people in my situation. If you lease the shooting then you are a lawful occupier. If you own the land AND occupy it then the same. I would not want myself and my pal to be prosecuted & become the test case for the definition of occupier when it would be relatively simple to take that pal to a clay ground for some proper experience. Ship shape and Bristol fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 And if you lend your gun to your mate do you also lend him your insurance ? All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belly47 Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 I feel sure that an awful lot of PW shotgun and Fac holders will have, it seems broken 'this ruling' including me several times. Just allow common sense to come into play and if a mate etc is interested enough to try out your gun/rifle in your company and on land that you have permission to be on, he can then apply for is own cert if he enjoys it, isn't that how a lot of us got into the sport. As long as the other party is not banned from doing so,I see no problem and will continue to 'take my chance' knowing the vagaries of the answers to the question. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darno Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 I feel sure that an awful lot of PW shotgun and Fac holders will have, it seems broken 'this ruling' including me several times. Just allow common sense to come into play and if a mate etc is interested enough to try out your gun/rifle in your company and on land that you have permission to be on, he can then apply for is own cert if he enjoys it, isn't that how a lot of us got into the sport. As long as the other party is not banned from doing so,I see no problem and will continue to 'take my chance' knowing the vagaries of the answers to the question. +1 I take my friends out occasionally, under my supervision and so long as the land owner gives me permission! Surely if there is no definite answer to this from the police or from shooters who have been in this game for donkey's years then your hardly going to prison for it! How are people ment to try the sport of gain the experience before they invest x amount of time and money into it??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 It how people learn I will keep doing it, if it's clays the laws clear you need an 11.6 exception. The law is grey and has been for years I'd happily argue the case that I'm the landowner servant conducting vermin control. If it get people shooting and is safe it must be a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 I've argued before that having a "right" over the land is not the same as a "permission", people still argue about it, so perhaps this question: Why do clay grounds have to apply for a special exception to allow non-SGC people to use their guns ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darno Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 I've argued before that having a "right" over the land is not the same as a "permission", people still argue about it, so perhaps this question: Why do clay grounds have to apply for a special exception to allow non-SGC people to use their guns ? Probably for insurance or to cover their back side? Don't know the real answer. It's irritating how different forces give different answers to the original question tho I've argued before that having a "right" over the land is not the same as a "permission", people still argue about it, so perhaps this question: Why do clay grounds have to apply for a special exception to allow non-SGC people to use their guns ? Probably for insurance or to cover their back side? Don't know the real answer. It's irritating how different forces give different answers to the original question tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Probably for insurance or to cover their back side? Don't know the real answer. It's irritating how different forces give different answers to the original question tho Actually, it's because the law requires them to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Probably for insurance or to cover their back side? Don't know the real answer. It's irritating how different forces give different answers to the original question tho Because that's what the firearms act states.... What's the difference between a clay ground on owned/leased land and you taking a none SGC holder to a permission Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darno Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Because that's what the firearms act states.... What's the difference between a clay ground on owned/leased land and you taking a none SGC holder to a permission I suppose the difference is that it's a grey area!!!! Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion! Thanks for clearing up for me what the actual reason is tho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Just take your mate shooting and let him have ago. If somebody walks over take it back simples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darno Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Just take your mate shooting and let him have ago. If somebody walks over take it back simples:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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