Wood Pigeon evolution.

[Fisherman Mike]

I genuinely believe that the habitat and feeding habits of native wood pigeon has changed markedly over the last 50 - 60 years, I would even go as far to say that a sub species is evolving; Columba Urbanus. A sub species that is totally reliant on humans for a habitat and food source.

Case in point: I drove about 50 miles round trip through the Gloucestershire countryside last week searching for feeding pigeons and found squat. Possibly saw about a dozen at the most. Yet a drive from my home outside Stroud, through the town and then through to Gloucester to work revealed no less than 48 birds, mainly in residential areas, perched on chimneys, ridges, tops of telegraph and electricity poles, wires, aerials, the climbing frame in the playground and even a park rubbish bin. Virtually every other house had a wood pigeon on it!

I would say none of these birds would have to move too far for a meal, feeding in gardens, (Bird food) parks, allotments, I even saw two squabbling over half a McDonald’s bap in the Bristol road before being robbed by a Gull.

It’s unlikely that these birds will ever need to flock up and venture into the countryside for food even in the coldest winter.

I think that we will still get migrant birds hitting these shores and spreading out each winter when the continents weather is bad, and there are still isolated healthy pockets of native pigeons in the countryside but the majority are in urbia or suburbia and that’s where they are going to stay.

Many of my birding colleagues and friends, who have also kept pigeons are of the opinion along with me that Pigeons don’t really like brassicas, there’s no real nutritional value in it compared to equivalent intakes of grain, wild seed or fruit, it has insufficient protein to produce crop milk which is why the peak breeding seasons for wild birds usually corresponds with the grain harvest between July and September. My garden has a resident population of about 6 birds which have been nesting since late Feb, they haven’t touched any of the brassicas or peas at all, yet they swing on the seed and nut feeders trying to dislodge the seeds before hoovering them up even grass seed and niger ! If you want to protect your cabbage plants stick a seed feeder in the middle of them !

I haven’t seen a really big flock of Pigeons like I used to see in the 70,s for years, and I mean a big winter flock which was 3 - 4 thousand birds strong. ! I doubt if many of us ever have but they used to be common place before acres and acres of rape was grown. These birds needed the little sustenance Brassicas had to offer during bitter weather because there was no bounty to be had elsewhere and they flocked up to feed in great numbers mainly as a safety strategy against predation. I was speaking to a nonagenarian Farmer last week who recalled that on his 400 acres in the 30,s and 40,s and 50,s after drilling in spring flocks of 10, 000 plus pigeons used to descend on his fields regularly and come back again on the stubble, hit the woods for ivy, mast and acorns in Autumn and then when it snowed heavy the sprouts, swede, mangold-wurzel and turnip tops. He said shooting them did no good at all and he employed three boys from the village at 2 shillings a day to rattle the fields and most of his time, when they were at school, was s pent riding round the fields on his old bay mare and a service revolver firing blanks to keep the “darn thangs orf”

These days birds don’t have to venture more than a few flaps to find a food source, the need to congregate has gone and they have discovered that the a cornucopia of delights is available and freely provided by us on their door step.

In summary I don’t think pigeon numbers are dwindling as such but they are evolving into a different habitat and becoming less and less in numbers in open farmland in many areas than ever before.

 

[Guest stevo]

That may be the case were you are . But its certainly not the case in this neck of the woods .

 

Good post though .

 

Stevo

[Fisherman Mike]

That may be the case were you are . But its certainly not the case in this neck of the woods .

 

Good post though .

 

Stevo

Are you saying then that you regularly see flocks of 5000 -10000 birds.?

[39TDS]

As a brassica grower I can assure you that pigeons do like to eat them!

This winter I have seen flocks bigger than ever before, thousands upon thousands of them. Usually flying past on their way somewhere, I don't know where but nor do I care as long as they keep going.

There are still big resident flocks that live either side of my place, each up to 500 birds strong. These are locals rather than immigrants.

This winter has been mild and the pigeons have indeed been less of a problem, presumably because they have more choice of where to eat.

I do my best to make them very unwelcome here but they would move in given half a chance of that I am sure.

[Fisherman Mike]

As a brassica grower I can assure you that pigeons do like to eat them!

This winter I have seen flocks bigger than ever before, thousands upon thousands of them. Usually flying past on their way somewhere, I don't know where but nor do I care as long as they keep going.

There are still big resident flocks that live either side of my place, each up to 500 birds strong. These are locals rather than immigrants.

This winter has been mild and the pigeons have indeed been less of a problem, presumably because they have more choice of where to eat.

I do my best to make them very unwelcome here but they would move in given half a chance of that I am sure.

Yes I agree, they do like to eat them..but not in preference to something better as many of us have doubt experience in recent months

[fenboy]

Yes I agree, they do like to eat them..but not in preference to something better as many of us have doubt experience in recent months

 

I would have to disagree on that , Lincolnshire perhaps grows more brassica's than anywhere else in the country and the pigeon are feeding on them year round , despite there now being 1000s of acres of peas and all the recent drilling that has gone on the pigeon have still been on the greens in numbers .

 

I would agree many pigeon are now resident in towns / villages but certainly from my findings they often still fly out to the fields to feed, one field I shoot in particular the pigeon mainly approach from the nearby village.

 

What I do think seems to be changing though is that they seem to stay flocked up for far longer now , often there is a large group of birds on a field one day but all gone the next and they seem to come a go on mass giving little or no serious shooting opportunity.

[Harnser]

My theory on the lack of pigeons is over the past 50 years , is the natural selection of the woody has been excelerated . I think that the stupid ones come into the decoys and get shot . The clever ones don't decoy and live to fight another day .

Any body who can go back 50 years pigeon shooting will agree that pigeons were more easily decoyed and bigger bags were the norm . I think that the woody has become a more cautious feeder due to them breeding from more wary stock . The stupid ones get shot and the clever ones go on to breed .

 

Harnser

Edited April 23, 2014 by Harnser

[pigeon controller]

My theory on the lack of pigeons is over the past 50 years , is the natural selection of the woody has been excelerated . I think that the stupid ones come into the decoys and get shot . The clever ones don't decoy and live to fight another day .

Any body who can go back 50 years pigeon shooting will agree that pigeons were more easily decoyed and bigger bags were the norm . I think that the woody has become a more cautious feeder due to them breeding from more wary stock . The stupid ones get shot and the clever ones go on to breed .

 

Harnser

I can only relate to the past thirty years, when the Severn and the Warwickshire Avon valleys held vast flocks of Wood Pigeon during the winter months due to the ammount of brassicas grown. You did not have to decoy you just stood in a Holly bush and could shoot a hundred birds in one session. This has now changed with the growing of Oil Seed Rape, and the supermarkets demanding higher crop yields which the small Market Gardener type Farmer can not compete with. I have a regular flock of 13 to 15 birds that I feed in my garden and they never seem to leave and becase we shoot within four or five miles of the centre of Birmingham we often shoot birds full of bird table food.These are my findings.

[Maddaftspaniel]

My best bags of pigeons have been around the A720 ring road on the outskirts of Edinburgh. City birds flighting out to feed on stubbles. They are far less wary than country birds.

[tignme]

Theres no such thing as a clever woodie,cautious/wary maybe but not clever. Where i am in the west of Scotland we are not blessed with much rape,peas,brassicias so the wiley woodie has to return to the same crop/drilling time and time again.

 

I have witnessed flocks of birds returning to the same few fields time n time again. For example i have three barley fields in the middle of 450 acres of mainly grass, shoot some over deeks n they keep returning.

 

Clever there are not but some are dead and cannot educate any more.

 

In the same area this past winter i discovered an unharvested barley field. we could not shoot it, no permission/too close to village etc. i have a small strip of wood some of the 4 to 5 thousand of birds were using. Pickl a windy day and fire a shot.

 

some of the flock lifted n came to us secreted in wood. albeit my best tally for a few hrs was 32 with two other guns similar. they kept on returning, not very clever.

Edited April 23, 2014 by tignme

[motty]

I don't subscribe to the idea that pigeons are more clever these days. Their habits may have changed in the past 40 odd years due to the mass of rape grown, but I still think this is the same unintelligent bird we are chasing. They may be slightly more wary, as there are more pigeon shooters chasing them.

I see loads of pigeons flying out from the towns to feed on the surrounding farms.

I still see flocks over 2000 strong each winter and I would say that I occasionally see flocks that number in the region of 5000.

[Catamong]

Some interesting points raised here, the facts in my area, as I see it :

• There are definitely more birds feeding in towns than there were 30 or 40 years ago.
• A lot of these birds do not roost in the Towns, but "commute" into town from their roosting woods outside of Town on a daily basis, (I once followed a cracking dawn flight line containing hundreds of birds, only to find they all peeled of one by one into various back gardens once in the outskirts of the Town).
• I agree with Harnser, the silly ones have been shot, the clever ones survive to breed yet more clever ones. The advent of the "Pigeon Magnet" has had a marked effect in the overall reduction of numbers in my area generally. Many birds are now "magnet shy".
• Traditional "dead cert" crops like peas are now virtually ignored by the birds.
• Fewer numbers of birds now rely upon feeding upon traditional arable crops as they can now feed in comparative safety in garden areas, parks etc, this results in fewer birds being decoyed, year on year.

I live in a Town Centre, I moved into this house in 1987, there is a row of tall beech trees about 50 yards away, as I am typing this I can count 14, now 15 Woodies up in the branches scoffing the Beech buds. That simply would not have happened back in 1987, they simply would not have been there back then.

 

Yes, their habits are changing.

 

Cat.

[motty]

Some interesting points raised here, the facts in my area, as I see it :

• There are definitely more birds feeding in towns than there were 30 or 40 years ago.
• A lot of these birds do not roost in the Towns, but "commute" into town from their roosting woods outside of Town on a daily basis, (I once followed a cracking dawn flight line containing hundreds of birds, only to find they all peeled of one by one into various back gardens once in the outskirts of the Town).
• I agree with Harnser, the silly ones have been shot, the clever ones survive to breed yet more clever ones. The advent of the "Pigeon Magnet" has had a marked effect in the overall reduction of numbers in my area generally. Many birds are now "magnet shy".
• Traditional "dead cert" crops like peas are now virtually ignored by the birds.
• Fewer numbers of birds now rely upon feeding upon traditional arable crops as they can now feed in comparative safety in garden areas, parks etc, this results in fewer birds being decoyed, year on year.

I live in a Town Centre, I moved into this house in 1987, there is a row of tall beech trees about 50 yards away, as I am typing this I can count 14, now 15 Woodies up in the branches scoffing the Beech buds. That simply would not have happened back in 1987, they simply would not have been there back then.

 

Yes, their habits are changing.

 

Cat.

Do you really think this is true, or is it just in your area that less birds are being decoyed? I think in my area the number shot generally is quite high - 500 and 600 bird bags are not unheard of.

[ditchman]

Motty..........just out of interest......you have read many times on here, some boys go out and whatever you do or whatever machine you use ...deeks etc, they will not draw...infact they totally ignore what is there

 

 

question:

 

have you ever had that problem in your area ?

 

its not a trick question, its just that i know "flatland " shooting can work differently to other areas...........

[aga man]

Some interesting debate here

I'm not sure if it can be classed as a brassica but i beleive clover is an attractive part of a woodpigeons diet, even if there is plenty of seeds around if there's clover too they will be on that at some point in the day. A lot of turf/grass seeds used in our town parks and sports fields does contain a fair amount of clover.

There is no doubt our towns are well populated with woodpigeons but i beleive that has been the case for many decades and theres little wonder as there not persicuted there like they are in the countryside. The amount of people shooting pigeons these days has increased i think which perhaps plays a part in pushing more birds to the safety of urban areas.

 

Not sure if woodies are that clever or not but they certainly know the difference between safety and danger. The same pigeon that flares from you in the middle of no where is comfortable to let you walk past it in the park or grass verges near tesco.

 

Thanks for starting the topic Fisherman mike this is what makes pigeon watch interesting

[motty]

Motty..........just out of interest......you have read many times on here, some boys go out and whatever you do or whatever machine you use ...deeks etc, they will not draw...infact they totally ignore what is there

 

 

question:

 

have you ever had that problem in your area ?

 

its not a trick question, its just that i know "flatland " shooting can work differently to other areas...........

I think when pigeons won't commit to decoys, it's usually because the shooter is in the wrong place or is doing something wrong. At least a couple of times in the last year or so, I have been shooting a few pigeons with a good, reliable setup, but being largely ignored by most pigeons that came near. I followed that flightline to where they REALLY wanted to be and found them in their thousands. Being in the correct place is paramount.

 

I don't doubt that pigeon behaviour can vary in different areas, but I've found little difference to how pigeons behave in the few counties that I've shot them.

[Catamong]

Do you really think this is true, or is it just in your area that less birds are being decoyed? I think in my area the number shot generally is quite high - 500 and 600 bird bags are not unheard of.

 

Yes, I can only speak for my area, I know things are different in other parts of the Country, I was amazed by the numbers of birds along the North Norfolk coast last September, I can quite see how bags of 500 - 600 can be made by guys who know what they're doing.

 

I remember back about 20 years ago, a well known "pigeon guide" had access to one of the farms I shoot over, he placed 3 paying froggies on a field of swathed rape and they shot around 600 birds between them, there were that many birds about back then, and bear in mind these were paying guns, who generally couldn't hit a cows rear end with a shovel..!

 

That wouldn't happen nowadays, the birds are just not around here in such numbers, I suppose if they get badly hammered during the breeding season, it's bound to affect their numbers..?

 

Cat.

[kitchrat]

Some interesting debate here

I'm not sure if it can be classed as a brassica but i beleive clover is an attractive part of a woodpigeons diet, even if there is plenty of seeds around if there's clover too they will be on that at some point in the day. A lot of turf/grass seeds used in our town parks and sports fields does contain a fair amount of clover.

There is no doubt our towns are well populated with woodpigeons but i beleive that has been the case for many decades and theres little wonder as there not persicuted there like they are in the countryside. The amount of people shooting pigeons these days has increased i think which perhaps plays a part in pushing more birds to the safety of urban areas.

 

Not sure if woodies are that clever or not but they certainly know the difference between safety and danger. The same pigeon that flares from you in the middle of no where is comfortable to let you walk past it in the park or grass verges near tesco.

 

Thanks for starting the topic Fisherman mike this is what makes pigeon watch interesting

I had promised myself not to get involved with these little squabbles any more but this is an interesting one and, if nothing more, shows the inflexibility of some PW members. However, it was not that that tempted me back on a 1-off basis, I want to know how you know it is the same pigeon from Tesco that flares away from you in the field?? I certainly have "tame" pigeons round here, pointing my crutches at them when they are 15 yards away only makes them coo, a mile up the road in the fields I only have to move an eyebrow and they are flaring away.

Same bird?? I doubt it!!

Over and out (again!)

[aga man]

I had promised myself not to get involved with these little squabbles any more but this is an interesting one and, if nothing more, shows the inflexibility of some PW members. However, it was not that that tempted me back on a 1-off basis, I want to know how you know it is the same pigeon from Tesco that flares away from you in the field?? I certainly have "tame" pigeons round here, pointing my crutches at them when they are 15 yards away only makes them coo, a mile up the road in the fields I only have to move an eyebrow and they are flaring away.

Same bird?? I doubt it!!

Over and out (again!)

I can't verify it's one of the same birds obviously but some of my shooting fields are less than a mile away from this particular Tesco and i know for a fact they flight out from the area to the fields.

[stuy]

I think what we are seeing is a marked difference up and down the country some birds are using the towns more , some of my best fields shoot well with birds coming out of hereford town centre, (5x 100 3x 200 bird days) birds more clever mm? You could say yes we need all the gear roatary flapper etc.., but when you are in the right place at the right time just some dead birds and they chuck themselves at you, but thats what make so addictive! You got to stay one step ahead, or try too anyway but interesting thread guys

[yickdaz]

all this talk of super intelligent pigeons isn,t standing up really well pc must have hell of a lot suicidal pigeons in his area then if this is the case because he isn,t doing to bad on them

I will admit they haven't been on our land in any kind of numbers so far this year, but they come and go at times we can look at a farm 6 times and nothing there then one day they are

 

I agree with the urban pigeon talk, the town I work in and around has a bird on every other roof top, tv ariel, and back garden tree, also on grass verges front and back gardens pecking on clover

Edited April 23, 2014 by yickdaz

[woody walloper]

evening all as a game dealer i collect pigeons across the midlands and south bucks .ten years ago i only collected a hand full of 100 plus bags a year now i collect 50 or 60 200 plus bags from the same people.some of these people spend more time watching than they do shooting. like motty says get in the right place no problems..

[Blackpowder]

Definately more urban now, never used to see a wood pigeon on a roof which is now a regular thing here abouts. Even had them nesting in a garage attached to a new byuild I was working on a few years ago also seen flocks flighting into a village nearby at roost time.

 

Blackpowder

[Catamong]

evening all as a game dealer i collect pigeons across the midlands and south bucks .ten years ago i only collected a hand full of 100 plus bags a year now i collect 50 or 60 200 plus bags from the same people.some of these people spend more time watching than they do shooting. like motty says get in the right place no problems..

 

Well, there we are..................it's that simple, I've obviously been sitting in the wrong hedgerows these past few years.................what an idiot..

 

If I'd have only known a bit more about the game I'd be getting regular 200 plus bags..

 

However, I'm not too sure that a game dealer based in Shropshire knows the slightest thing about pigeon numbers in South Herts, certainly none of the guys that I know in this area that are capable of shooting decent bags and whose opinions I value would suggest that bird numbers are anywhere approaching stable, they all agree that numbers are generally well down, fact.

 

Cat.

[turbo33]

Its just a change in agriculture. We shoot pigeons 99% of time where they are feeding, their love for food is their downfall. No food or more appealing food elsewhere, no pigeons I am lucky enough to shoot three permissions totalling around 3,000 acres. So far this year, excluding the recce drives, I have shot 27 pigeons for 14 trips. We have rape, winter sown wheat/barley and the odd game crop. So pretty much nothing for them, bar acorns, from September through to late june/july when there's a chance of laid crops.

It was very different years ago when the stubble was left over winter. I had good bags then on the chickweed and others growing in the stubble. Then onto spring drilling. Laid crops next as there weren't the stiffeners then we have now, then back to stubble. Also, there was a lot of market gardens farming then round here. So in short there was plentiful and varied food supply to keep a good populous all year round.

Clearly there are areas further "up country" where more traditional farming takes place, and market garden farming continues to thrive. As the pigeons brain is ruled by its love of a varied diet, they have moved away from the south, most probably further north. It is certainly backed up by the reports in sporting pics.

 

So do I think they are super clever from evolution? No, but I do think they are wise enough to fly in search of a varied and plentiful supply of food and stay/breed in that location

Edited April 23, 2014 by turbo33