Scully Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 No employer can force an employee to break the law. True, but they can make it quite plain without stating specifics, that it will become very difficult to remain employed if results aren't forthcoming, which leaves that employee with some difficuilt decisions to make regarding not only their present employment but future employment also. I think nowadays the practise is much less common thankfully, than it used to be, and while I can't by any means condone unlawful practises, there are still many 'old school' 'keepers, landowners and employers around. They do none of us any favours...one step forward, and three back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 What reason would you give for controlling raptors ? To protect game birds reared for shooting . I don't think that would work or gain any support from the vast numbers of non shooters in this country . Harnser Yes, well that's my point. I'm allowed to control Crows, Jays and Magpies to protect game birds and I'm sure the majority of non-shooters would object to that. My real point is, why can't it be left up to me to decide what I need to control to protect my stock. As I understand the balance of nature then I have no desire to eradicate any species and, believe me, in spite of the fact that I'm allowed to control Jays and Magpies for example, there's plenty of them left on my shoot. What I'm also saying is why should charities be allowed to reintroduce species without any indemnity for damage caused? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Yes, well that's my point. I'm allowed to control Crows, Jays and Magpies to protect game birds and I'm sure the majority of non-shooters would object to that. My real point is, why can't it be left up to me to decide what I need to control to protect my stock. As I understand the balance of nature then I have no desire to eradicate any species and, believe me, in spite of the fact that I'm allowed to control Jays and Magpies for example, there's plenty of them left on my shoot. What I'm also saying is why should charities be allowed to reintroduce species without any indemnity for damage caused? and why arent badgers still on the general licence? The numbers are not on our side, so in a democracy its a slow downhill slope unless we establish credible alternative scenarios to the conservation organisations. We need to be the ones pushing the conservation agenda hard. And seen to be doing it.Has anyone studied how many birds buzzards take ? Most anti's think buzzards eat beatles and carrion exclusively. We all know they kill pheasants and take adults. There's none so deaf as those who wont hear. However you cannot establish conservation credentials whilst killing birds of prey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 and why arent badgers still on the general licence? The numbers are not on our side, so in a democracy its a slow downhill slope unless we establish credible alternative scenarios to the conservation organisations. We need to be the ones pushing the conservation agenda hard. And seen to be doing it.Has anyone studied how many birds buzzards take ? Most anti's think buzzards eat beatles and carrion exclusively. We all know they kill pheasants and take adults. There's none so deaf as those who wont hear. However you cannot establish conservation credentials whilst killing birds of prey. I quite agree. As I've said, I don't condone the killing of birds of prey or that Gamekeeper, especially poisoning, and I'd never do it myself and I also agree that we need to push for our side of conservation. The angle I would like to receive more publicity though is, rather than me having to defend my position all the time then a study on the damage caused and our various associations asking the RSPB etc to recognise that their campaigns also have downsides may help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Yes, well that's my point. I'm allowed to control Crows, Jays and Magpies to protect game birds and I'm sure the majority of non-shooters would object to that. My real point is, why can't it be left up to me to decide what I need to control to protect my stock. As I understand the balance of nature then I have no desire to eradicate any species and, believe me, in spite of the fact that I'm allowed to control Jays and Magpies for example, there's plenty of them left on my shoot. What I'm also saying is why should charities be allowed to reintroduce species without any indemnity for damage caused? KFC , I am on your side and understand the countryside . Yes you do control corvids the same as I do . The corvids are coincided a general pest in the country side and to the farmers crops and it can be justified to shoot them , not to extinction,but enough to keep the numbers at a reasonable number . I just think that it would be very difficult to persuade any government to issue control licences for raptors to protect reared or wild game birds , unless they were deemed to be a general pest and a danger of wiping out a species it won't happen . Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 and why arent badgers still on the general licence? The numbers are not on our side, so in a democracy its a slow downhill slope unless we establish credible alternative scenarios to the conservation organisations. We need to be the ones pushing the conservation agenda hard. And seen to be doing it.Has anyone studied how many birds buzzards take ? Most anti's think buzzards eat beatles and carrion exclusively. We all know they kill pheasants and take adults. There's none so deaf as those who wont hear. However you cannot establish conservation credentials whilst killing birds of prey. Defra tried just such a study 2/3 years ago all the stakeholders at the meetings agreed to it including non lethal trapping and relocations of problem birds, but the RSPB done wot it does best and shafted it just before it was finalised by releasing/leaking misleading info, just about (or possibly did ) cost the minister for agriculture his job. RSPB know exactly wot any study will find and are running scared of it. Good article in the ST this week about the RSPB's hypocrisy and double standards, by that alister mitchell and another good 1 last week by robin page According to the article (if it is 100% accurate, which is not awlays the case) the game bag was lying on the front of his quad when they raided him. The fact the keeper was 65 is also quite telling, in his life it was probably quite legal to shoot sparrowhawks and dig badgers. He has just found it hard to give up his old ways. I was on the grouse a few weeks ago and on about a fellow keeper who got raided for no apparent reason, 45, yes 45 polis officers as well as other assorted hangers on raided his house and sheds etc. Nothing was found. Now i have no probelm with keepers gettin raided if there is evidence, but 45 folk u wouldn't get that many on a drugs raid or for dangerous criminals The simple fact that no matter how many/few BoP's are illegally killed the RSPB will over react and exagerate every case as it raises more money for them. Even if the proper police confirmed cases falls to next to nothing they will still exagerate it. Think the offical police figures for scotland are down to alomst single figures now Almost every BoP species is at an all time high in population and spreading to areas never seen before. Red kites were released on 1 farm around 2001 never been in this area afore they now can have 100 plus at feeding times and there spreading all over the district Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsh man Posted October 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 So Why did he open his bag to show this supposed inspector they are not the police and have no more powers than a member of the public I do agree that he is a plank. Reading the article in the paper the Police , R S P B , and Natural England officers all went to his house at the same time to search the place, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 What about lead. I know my mate won't feed his halk lead shot pigeon. Does this not affect other b o p if so many could also be seen to poison bait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 KFC , I am on your side and understand the countryside . Yes you do control corvids the same as I do . The corvids are coincided a general pest in the country side and to the farmers crops and it can be justified to shoot them , not to extinction,but enough to keep the numbers at a reasonable number . I just think that it would be very difficult to persuade any government to issue control licences for raptors to protect reared or wild game birds , unless they were deemed to be a general pest and a danger of wiping out a species it won't happen . Harnser Quite true particularly as Pheasants and French partridges are not native birds and are bred to be shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalmac Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 What about lead. I know my mate won't feed his halk lead shot pigeon. Does this not affect other b o p if so many could also be seen to poison bait. The important part is the knowingly doing it bit with a guilty mind (men's rea). Accidentally leaving a pigeon behind which is full of lead by honest mistake would be seperate. But you don't accidentaly poison 9 plus more and have buckets of poison in your possession accidentally and also have a load of pheasants to protect... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 I am not a fan of these big birds the birds people decided to reintroduce them do they ask the local people if they want them not to my knowledge they decide that we are going to have them and that is it if people think that they are taking game birds etc then shoot the bloody things but poisoning them is wrong as you not only kill the bird anything that eats the bird will also die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 I am not a fan of these big birds the birds people decided to reintroduce them do they ask the local people if they want them not to my knowledge they decide that we are going to have them and that is it if people think that they are taking game birds etc then shoot the bloody things but poisoning them is wrong as you not only kill the bird anything that eats the bird will also die. Buzzards haven't been re-introduced...they are just recovering after the myxi virus wiped out 97 % of there normal foodstuffs in the 50,s and agricultural pesticides effected terribly hatching successes in the 70,s and 80,s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Buzzards haven't been re-introduced...they are just recovering after the myxi virus wiped out 97 % of there normal foodstuffs in the 50,s and agricultural pesticides effected terribly hatching successes in the 70,s and 80,s Strange,I read an article a while ago in which the RSPB said that their re-introduction of Buzzards to England had been a great success ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Buzzard most definitely have been re-introduced in to some parts of England. It is without question they are a native species and were wiped out in some areas. In Norfolk they have been re-introduced to the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Some of u may remember in the spring/early summer last year something like 22 dead BoP's within about 1 mile of a red kite feeding station (mainly red kites but a few buzzards too) were found up north of Inverness near connor brig, As u can probably imagine there was uproar ever keeper in the district got his door kicked in and collar felt and quite a bit of money was put up for a reward, think it finished about 15k, so a bit of money. This has all went very very quiet, the reward has never been claimed, the police have never even published wot poison the birds died from, all seems very hush hush. There is now a very real chance (not that anyone esp the RSPB will ever admit it, and spend a lot of time strongly denying it) that the birds have been somehow accidentally poisoned by the feeding station, possibly from carcus not fit for food chain and some drugs/medication still in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Some of u may remember in the spring/early summer last year something like 22 dead BoP's within about 1 mile of a red kite feeding station (mainly red kites but a few buzzards too) were found up north of Inverness near connor brig, As u can probably imagine there was uproar ever keeper in the district got his door kicked in and collar felt and quite a bit of money was put up for a reward, think it finished about 15k, so a bit of money. This has all went very very quiet, the reward has never been claimed, the police have never even published wot poison the birds died from, all seems very hush hush. There is now a very real chance (not that anyone esp the RSPB will ever admit it, and spend a lot of time strongly denying it) that the birds have been somehow accidentally poisoned by the feeding station, possibly from carcus not fit for food chain and some drugs/medication still in it But think of the mileage it got them in the media.................................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Some of u may remember in the spring/early summer last year something like 22 dead BoP's within about 1 mile of a red kite feeding station (mainly red kites but a few buzzards too) were found up north of Inverness near connor brig, As u can probably imagine there was uproar ever keeper in the district got his door kicked in and collar felt and quite a bit of money was put up for a reward, think it finished about 15k, so a bit of money. This has all went very very quiet, the reward has never been claimed, the police have never even published wot poison the birds died from, all seems very hush hush. There is now a very real chance (not that anyone esp the RSPB will ever admit it, and spend a lot of time strongly denying it) that the birds have been somehow accidentally poisoned by the feeding station, possibly from carcus not fit for food chain and some drugs/medication still in it Worth investigating further? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 'The pressure some of the keepers are under is immense, they are expected to show lots of birds and provide good sport at all times otherwise they'll be out of a job. What Mr Lambert did is inexcusable but what pressure was he under? There is a big problem in here and ignoring it isn't the solution as it can only get worse.' The cynic in me thinks this is exactly what certain parties want. There is a lot in what you say KFC. The increase in Buzzards in Norfolk over the last ten years has been nothing short of spectacular. Twenty years ago the was more chance of seeing a Honey Buzzard than a Common Buzzard in this area now the Common Buzzard is everywhere in big numbers. The pressure some of the keepers are under is immense, they are expected to show lots of birds and provide good sport at all times otherwise they'll be out of a job. What Mr Lambert did is inexcusable but what pressure was he under? There is a big problem in here and ignoring it isn't the solution as it can only get worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Whilst out goose shooting last Saturday morning, I watched a buzzard hunt down a small covey (3) of wild English partridges, narrowly missing one that took evasive action, as it dropped talons down after ground hugging the stubble. A truly fascinating display of nature. and why arent badgers still on the general licence? The numbers are not on our side, so in a democracy its a slow downhill slope unless we establish credible alternative scenarios to the conservation organisations. We need to be the ones pushing the conservation agenda hard. And seen to be doing it.Has anyone studied how many birds buzzards take ? Most anti's think buzzards eat beatles and carrion exclusively. We all know they kill pheasants and take adults. There's none so deaf as those who wont hear. However you cannot establish conservation credentials whilst killing birds of prey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillfrbs Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 we had a peregrine falcon swoop down and nick one of are frozen decoys ,only to fly off with it and drop it . amazing to see . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsallpl Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 It would be interesting to know if anyone has applied for a special licence from Natural England to control Buzzards and what the outcome was. Think I know the answer, but we're all double guessing really aren't we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 No sympathy for him, every keeper knows it's a no no, yet they still do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 I am not a fan of these big birds the birds people decided to reintroduce them do they ask the local people if they want them not to my knowledge they decide that we are going to have them and that is it if people think that they are taking game birds etc then shoot the bloody things but poisoning them is wrong as you not only kill the bird anything that eats the bird will also die. May i ask why you are not a fan of these big birds.....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Joe 1 has done it they don't 'all still do it'. If i put something out of the paper about drink drivers or hgv or motor bike riders causing crashes/deaths throu dangerous driving then tarred ALL drivers with the same brush would that be fair? Yet 1 keeper is caught breaking the law and we're all guility? That suits the anti's and so called 'conservationists' agenda, but the fact is almost all BoP species are at an all time high, yet plenty of other once common birds are on red or amber lists and genuinely in real danger population wise and becoming locally exticnt over large areas of land (even once very common birds like lapwing. oystercatcher, curlew or grey partridge) and u never hear a peep out of these so called 'conservationists' as they don't make them money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 It would be interesting to know if anyone has applied for a special licence from Natural England to control Buzzards and what the outcome was. Think I know the answer, but we're all double guessing really aren't we? I think i'm right in saying there was a licence to destroy 3 nests granted 2? years ago, but when the 'conservationists' /press found out throu a FOI request they really went to town in it. I should add the nests were destroyed before they were occupied so no buzzards were harmed. As far as i know no other licences have been granted, and doubtful if any will be due to all the bad press generated. The licences are the exact same ones used to control cormarants for fisheries, meant to be 3-4 times as many buzzards as cormarants yet issue cormorant licences every year but no buzzard. Go figure, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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