Harnser Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Been having a look around some local gun shops at the latest guns . Been a bit disappointing looking at the quality of the finish on the stocks and the quality of the wood . Wood to metal finish on a couple of new very popular guns was awful . I have a 325 citori circa 1988 that knocks spots of these guns for finish and quality and it has chopper lump barrels . Have the two Bs sacrificed quality and finish for profit ? I think they have . Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenlivet Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 It maybe they're feeling the heat from the newer companies and in trying to be competitive they're cutting corners. Not to mention the number of good quality second hand guns on the market, why buy new? My Guerini had hardly seen a cartridge and I paid over a grand less than retail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IEH Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) Been having a look around some local gun shops at the latest guns . Been a bit disappointing looking at the quality of the finish on the stocks and the quality of the wood . Wood to metal finish on a couple of new very popular guns was awful . I have a 325 citori circa 1988 that knocks spots of these guns for finish and quality and it has chopper lump barrels . Have the two Bs sacrificed quality and finish for profit ? I think they have . Harnser I think they have too! I have a 686L Beretta purchased new in 1986 and the quality is streets above what they're currently producing. Edited January 31, 2016 by IEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Personally I don't like the look of a shiny new gun and much prefer something that looks like it has a story behind it. With most things in life, quality is slowly being replaced with speed and cost cutting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Geordie Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Surely to cut quality to bring prices inline with cheaper suppliers is false economy? Surely people looking for QUALITY will be willing to pay that little bit more for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Quite happy with my 1914 Pape and 1889 John Dickson R/A. So for me older is better. Blackpowder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted January 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Quite happy with my 1914 Pape and 1889 John Dickson R/A. So for me older is better. Blackpowder They were made when gun makers were gun makers . Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les*1066 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Surely to cut quality to bring prices inline with cheaper suppliers is false economy? Surely people looking for QUALITY will be willing to pay that little bit more for it? I think that that's part of the problem. People are still paying higher prices for "quality" guns, but the quality is no longer there in some cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAsh Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Quite hard to qualify the quality of a shotgun these days, older guns were mad with possibly overweight components due to the indifferent steels used but modern guns all made using CNC tools with very well known steel which can be cut to much finer tolerances, Both should last over one hundred years but whilst some makes or types are loved for their age others only have a short life before they are outdated hence the thousands of SXS guns on the market at under £100 and the lesser known brands of O/U being sold under say £300 prices on Guntrader for B25's start at about £1000 and quite a few the other day under £2000 and Beretta the only gun maker with such a vast selection of shotguns most of which appear to use the same action and barrels Like most things fashion and marketing play a massive part in both the pricing and popularity of things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 I recall a visit to Boss in London back around 1976. A friend was an apprentice there before embarking elsewhere. The gun finisher was about 80 (then) as he shuffled about the workshop he was farting...so funny at the time. So he was given all the action parts in the raw straight off the roughing machine and finished them from that. I said to him where are your drawings...he looked blank at me and said 'what drawings, don't need any'. On his bench he had some lovely guns that he had been working for weeks if not months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 I know modern CNC stuff is capable of exceptional precision - which should guarantee a near perfect fit ..... but I have also seen some pretty poor CNC stuff. Bad programming, bad setting up, inappropriate or blunt cutters? I don't know, but it can be good ..... if the trouble is taken to get it right. And hand work was just the same! I have guns from 1810 through to about 1995. In all honesty, the 1810 muzzle loader wood to metal fit has suffered from 200 years use and probably some misuse, but the metal to metal fit is superb. I have, however seen some real nails - of all ages, many countries of origin - including the occasional 'best English' that has at some time had the misfortune to be 'restored' by the wrong person. The discerning buyer need to use his eyes and fins a good one - and that applies to all vintages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Much happier with the older Brownings and Berettas, long lasting quality rather than todays horrible stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaSV10 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 I found the quality of the older Beretta's far superior to their modern guns, to the extent I got fed up with Beretta's so I sold them and now have a Ceaser, Browning and picked up a Benelli the other week, although Benelli is part of the Beretta group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 I can only agree that modern stuff doesn't have the apparent quality. In my own case i'm a bit horrified at the finish on modern Berettas. I'm in the market for a sporter at the moment, and when I look at the Beretta range it really doesn't begin to compare with my 686 Special from twenty odd years ago. The wood isn't as good (and we all know that Beretta are guilty of some - to my mind - pretty underhand tricks with coatings and lasers and the like to fool us into thinking otherwise). The fit of the various components isn't as good, with one part standing proud of others, and the blueing of some of the cheaper models is more akin to what I would have called Parkerising not so very long ago. Of course, that may be because Beretta have moved downmarket in a way that makes their cheaper products not directly comparable. But the guns themselves may in fact be better products. Steel technology, tools, and computers have all contributed to something that may well last longer, resist corrosion better, and in fact may even shoot better. But they're just not so nice to own. People's views of finish and quality change, too. Many shooters just adore, for example, the AYA No2 sidelock ejector, which has been going for decades. It is frequently touted as "like a Holland & Holland" and it is quite sought after. My own view of these was formed in the late sixties when I laid an AYA No2 next to a Holland & Holland Royal, and the differences are vast. The engraving on the Spanish gun was crude, naive, coarse, poorly executed and downright ugly in comparison, and the Spanish lockwork compared very poorly. Naturally the AYA gun was a fraction of the price, and it did represent astonishing value, and I know that if you buy a new one tomorrow it's a very different kettle of Paella. There have always been firms in this country that have imported guns from abroad - or even bought them in from the Birminham trade - and treated them to a fine finish and a high grade bit of walnut that results in a fine looking article whose external appearance belies a less-than-best interior. It goes on today. Many of the fine guns of a couple of generations ago still look good, are still tight, and the original quality has helped them retain their condition. I wonder if a Guerini will keep on going as long? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 I think the quality of the likes of Browning and Beretta has dropped some . But other makers are producing some very nice guns . I had my mitts on one of these yesterday and was very impressed , sadly out of my price range though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 What is quality.and at what price does it start.some people want to pay 1k and get 10k of goods.most of the guns mentioned on here are in fact low priced low grade mass produced rubbish to cater for a mass market.if you want quality then I believe you need to look further up the scale.yoj can't have a Bentley for fiesta money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaSV10 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 To me a £3000 gun is a Bentley, and don't expect two of them to break having shot around 500 cartridges between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) Fabarm Axis fenboy. Looks very much like a Kreighoff K80 Super Sport with stock and floating barrels. Some modern guns are not as nice but are made of better quality steels and alloys. For all who like the older Brownings a B25 costing lots of money if it gets wet will rust before your eyes. Older Berettas are not without faults either. Back in the 70's and 80's the said B guns cost more that equivalent B gun does today. Seen Beretta from the eighties and well looked after externally worn to bits inside with elongated holes and worn out pins, metal wasn't as good back then. Even if fit and finish was better. To get something of what you could call quality is over ten grand for the likes of Boxall Edmiston and Longthorne guns. Under ten grand you can get a well engineered gun but is it quality. How much gun are you actually getting for say £1500/1800 price of say a base model Beretta or Browning. Considering import duties and taxes, transportation and profit for manufacturer, importer and then the gun dealer selling into you. At a guess I reckon that gun cost at most £500 to produce. So how much quality can you expect? Edited January 31, 2016 by figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Fabarm Axis fenboy. Looks very much like a Kreighoff K80 Super Sport with stock and floating barrels. Some modern guns are not as nice but are made of better quality steels and alloys. For all who like the older Brownings a B25 costing lots of money if it gets wet will rust before your eyes. Older Berettas are not without faults either. Back in the 70's and 80's the said B guns cost more that equivalent B gun does today. Seen Beretta from the eighties and well looked after externally worn to bits inside with elongated holes and worn out pins, metal wasn't as good back then. Even if fit and finish was better. To get something of what you could call quality is over ten grand for the likes of Boxall Edmiston and Longthorne guns. Under ten grand you can get a well engineered gun but is it quality. How much gun are you actually getting for say £1500/1800 price of say a base model Beretta or Browning. Considering import duties and taxes, transportation and profit for manufacturer, importer and then the gun dealer selling into you. At a guess I reckon that gun cost at most £500 to produce. So how much quality can you expect? Yes I was very impressed , I do like the floating barrel version also, and the STL range are stunning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) Seen one and your right they are nice. Treat yourself, you know you want too. I prefer the RS shown in your picture the STL are too much like a Ceasar Guerini to the point at a glance you couldn't tell them apart. Edited January 31, 2016 by figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Seen one and your right they are nice. Treat yourself, you know you want too. I prefer the RS shown in your picture the STL are too much like a Ceasar Guerini to the point at a glance you couldn't tell them apart. To be honest as much as I like them I do not do enough clay shooting to warrant one , I do need a new game gun however . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Been having a look around some local gun shops at the latest guns . Been a bit disappointing looking at the quality of the finish on the stocks and the quality of the wood . Wood to metal finish on a couple of new very popular guns was awful . I have a 325 citori circa 1988 that knocks spots of these guns for finish and quality and it has chopper lump barrels . Have the two Bs sacrificed quality and finish for profit ? I think they have . Harnser Most definitely ! Succesive ranges of the big names have always exhibited poorer design & quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/317538-16g-sxs/?hl=%2B16g+%2Bkyska&do=findComment&comment=2875411 I've gone from new guns, nearly new guns, this season I've shot with this old relic, it's done 100's of shots this season, engaged other guns to take a look. It's old, but very very well made, faultless and loved. Edited January 31, 2016 by kyska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacker Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Very interesting reading! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db135 Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 My miroku 3800 grade 3 made in 1980 feels and looks a realy well made gun compared to sum of my friends new o/u made by well known Italian gun makers. Had a go of them and just think narr not for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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