Gunfit.... Are all fitters equal?

[ElvisThePelvis]

I am looking to get my sxs fit to me well in advance of the game season, I won't be booking any more stupidly high pheasant days on ethical grounds so will only be shooting game with sxs.

 

A local gunsmith fitted my ou and seems to have done a really good job (although I don't have a reference point) he mentioned at the time that a lot of his fitting work is undoing what Holland and Holland have done..

 

Just to confuse matters a very well respected stocker has suggested that H&H is the THE place to go for unfit based in his clients feedback.

 

Whilst H@H have their offer on the extra cost won't be too horrendous, but will a local gunsmith with a try gun not be just as good?

[Hamster]

1) why don't you shoot your OU for game ?

2) why do you believe the SS needs fitting ?

 

Based on the answers I might have a suggestion or two but it won't necessarily be pointing you towards a gun fitter.

[ElvisThePelvis]

1) I prefer sxs for game, it's lighter and faster handling for walked up and its traditional too

2) I don't know or sure but I would like it fit to me to remove any doubt, I think it's a little short, but only a touch and I'm hoping that well as accuracy being fit will reduce some recoil.

 

I really haven't enjoyed shooting ou for game, it seems a bit crass, and the three high bird days I did although my averages were no worse than anyone else's 7:1 where birds are being pricked doesn't feel like the right thing to do so I won't be repeating these so I have no need for a high bird gun.

[Hamster]

It's just that mentioning ethics makes you think the SS is out before it really gets started. No need to panic people but it's simple truth and reality that they will never be as good as an OU no matter what you do and how finely you get them fitted or indeed how well you yourself develop as a shot - the OU is the more accurate as the target field proves.

 

But if you must then no problem. They usually are a bit on the short side and that is easily cured by the addition of a good recoil pad which will also help with recoil but since the SS is usually much lighter than an OU the gain won't necessarily feel all that great but as long as you don't shoot heavy shells all should be well.

 

Now as for fit, if you were to take them both on a clay ground and shoot them for a week or two the chances are the OU will feel the easier to shoot well with, this is because the single sighting plane and overall greater weight and sight picture will lend themselves more to accurate shooting. In comparison (9 times out of 10) a SS will have no rib to speak of in terms of sighting aid as their ribs are generally just a way of joining the barrels together, also the stocks tend to be thin and low which means you'll be looking at the barrels/lever at a sort of concave strip with a couple of wide blobs (barrels) at either end - fine for close range work with open chokes blasting away at 25 yard phessies but not so good elsewhere.

 

What I'm trying to say is that fitting is an overstated thing, not saying it is unimportant or that it won't be useful in many subtle ways such as reducing undue recoil or avoiding cheek slap etc, but it won't in itself make you hit more.

 

I know this because I have watched thousands of people shoot and miss targets with well fitted as well as unfitted guns, the reason they miss is usually technical and not related to fit in absolute terms. If you take an average person to a stand and give them their usual unfitted gun as well as an expertly fitted one they will still miss targets that they have a poor technical grasp of. If you take an expert shot to that same stand with them, trust me they will hit those same targets with the strangers gun.

 

In my opinion fitting is something that has to come from within yourself organically and over a period of time. Sometimes fitters get it right sometimes not, it's very rare that two consulted separately arrive at the exact same dimensions.

[ElvisThePelvis]

Wow, that's excellent, thank you! Yes I agree, single barrel sight plains are much, much easier to shoot, in fact on some of the shoots I did last season although enjoyable the ou felt too easy (difficult to please aren't I)

 

I take your point entirely, it could be that Im expecting too much of sxs having predominantly used ou in my first ŷear of shooting, although no issues with Pheasants or Pigeons out to about 45 yards.

 

It sounds like I need to just spend more time getting used to it, the guy that fitted my ou ( which did make a big difference although much could be resultant confidence) gave the sxs a cursory glance and felt that it pretty much fitted, could maybe be lengthened slightly.

[archi]

Book in at H&H you won't be disappointed and then you will know what measurements your gun should be and then the misses are only down to you.

It can only help

[ElvisThePelvis]

Thanks, it feels like it's worth the money to put my mind at rest, especially as it's half price at the moment

[Hamster]

Wow, that's excellent, thank you! Yes I agree, single barrel sight plains are much, much easier to shoot, in fact on some of the shoots I did last season although enjoyable the ou felt too easy (difficult to please aren't I)

 

I take your point entirely, it could be that Im expecting too much of sxs having predominantly used ou in my first ŷear of shooting, although no issues with Pheasants or Pigeons out to about 45 yards.

 

It sounds like I need to just spend more time getting used to it, the guy that fitted my ou ( which did make a big difference although much could be resultant confidence) gave the sxs a cursory glance and felt that it pretty much fitted, could maybe be lengthened slightly.

 

Had you for instance said that the SS shoots left and keeps slapping me in the face then I'd have had no hesitation in recommending that something be done fit wise straight away but in the beginning of the shooting process close enough is good enough as long as recoil is not causing pain in a specific way.

 

Good gun fit won't hurt of course but it takes a while to develop any sort of consistency in mount etc, so money spent too early can be counter productive. The very best gun fit comes from your own recipe and instructions to the fitter . A couple of months ago a close friend of mine bought a new Perazzi which including the factory visit for fitting cost him £8400, the gun was a gem and looked and handled beautifully, despite being a left hander even I managed to not miss the dozen or so times I fired it yet he sold it a couple of weeks ago and bought a standard off the peg Blaser which he shoots better, go figure as they say.

[mudpatten]

Some truly breathtaking comments there!!!

[ElvisThePelvis]

Excellent, thanks, I will keep going with it and review options this time next year. I think I may get some in the ear defenders as I seem to clonk the stock on defenders which I don't when using ou, this makes my mount a 'little distracted' coupled with being lower in the stock and of course easier to stop swinging through as its lighter and shorter in barrel there is a lot to over come..

[Vince Green]

Any gunfitting is only as good as the man doing it. H&H's try gun just allows you to explore all the options with a real gun. There are not a lot of try guns about so its almost a unique experience.

 

As Hamster says, its a starting point

Edited March 12, 2016 by Vince Green

[Hamster]

In its raw form fitting is simply getting the gun to shoot where the shooter is looking, 40/60 is just about the standard accepted definition of how the pattern ought to be printing, plus of course as mentioned before avoiding any undue recoil issues but once this is done there is no guarantee whatsoever that you will go on to shoot the gun any better than another you may pick off the shelf at random but which happens to suit you better in many other less obvious ways like overall weight, balance, pointability and the way it recoils or even things as subtle as how it opens and shuts or how it absorbs the first shots recoil which dictates how well you can get onto the second bird etc, etc.

 

I'm not dismissing fit in any way just saying make sure it's close enough initially then shoot the gun as much as possible and try to see for yourself what may benefit you in terms of how it's set up. Stories of shooters spending thousands on expertly fitted guns and shooting them less well than an old favourite are two a penny, as are stories of mega shots buying and using standard guns off the peg and making some very minor adjustments.

[pontbeck]

Hamster, I couldn't agree more with your comments on this thread. Of course we need a gun that fits but the only person who knows wether it fits or not is the person shooting it and that comes from experience, consistant gun handling and mount.

A friend had a new gun fitted to him recently and the guy made a super job of the adjustments, no one would know the gun had been altered but it doesn't fit him, too much taken off the stock length . He has to use a pad to bring it back up to the desired length . He totally relied on the fitter to tell him what the dimensions should be and put no input into the alterations relying on the expertise of the fitter.

[dougall]

gunfit...my tuppence worth is you cannot do this in a shop,has to be done out on a ground and including shooting,both P plate and most importantly clays....on this basis alone H&H ground a better bet than in a local gunshop.you can of course take all your measurements from the gun fit and have the work done elsewhere.

[Scully]

At a shooting show in Yorkshire some years ago we happened upon a small tent occupied by The Worshipful Association of Gunfitters and Stockers, or some such name ( I've just googled them with no success, but it was something like that ) and talked to an old boy who after talking to each of us about our shooting habits and checking our guns for fit told us which birds each of us missed more than others, and was bang on each time.

He told us it was wise to wear the clothes you intend to shoot in while having your gun fitted, which makes sense, but isn't always practical.

[Dunkield]

IMO gun fit is just another unknown.

If you have it checked, properly, you can dismiss it - that just leaves the other 1000 different reasons you might be missing

[Salopian]

Scully ,

Could it have been The Guild of Shooting Instructors ?

[Tim Kelly]

I really wonder about this idea that SxS guns are inherently less possible to shoot accurately. What sort of difference are we talking about? I shoot a SxS, OU and semi auto and really don't notice a difference. Granted my shooting skills are moderate, but for this to have become an accepted wisdom must be based on something. Clay shooters use OUs, but then they're almost always heavier than SxS guns, so it makes sense to use something heavier if you're shooting 100 shots in a short period. If someone like Digweed were to spend as much time practising with a suitable SxS as he does with his OUs how much worse would his scores really be? 1 or 2 birds in a hundred?

[Scully]

It could well have been, but this old boy wasn't an instructor as far as I'm aware, but it makes sense for one to go with the other.

Dunkield is right; while fit is important it is just one component in a barrow full of the things.

[oldypigeonpopper]

At a shooting show in Yorkshire some years ago we happened upon a small tent occupied by The Worshipful Association of Gunfitters and Stockers, or some such name ( I've just googled them with no success, but it was something like that ) and talked to an old boy who after talking to each of us about our shooting habits and checking our guns for fit told us which birds each of us missed more than others, and was bang on each time.

He told us it was wise to wear the clothes you intend to shoot in while having your gun fitted, which makes sense, but isn't always practical.

hello, that is interesting scully as we all know winter shooting and through summer we do wear different clothes, also when many shooters back in the 60s i knew started to go over from their S/S to O/Us they shot much better and i think that was due to a high rib and more standard stock measurements. but then those with S/S and a high churchill rib faired better than with a concave which was advocated in j ruffers book on shotgun shooting.but there are so many narratives if that is the the right word to gun fit and fitting and getting it just right to get the best from using the shotgun

[Hamster]

Gun fit doesn't necessarily even follow your physical attribute either, I happen to be almost a foot shorter than a tall person yet picking up various shooters guns around the circuit and shouldering them a large percentage if not most feel too short for me , I prefer 14-3/4" optimally but can get away with a fraction more or a bit less.

 

Same with comb height, most people remark that my gun has a very high sight picture which took me well over a decade to discover is what I MUST have for best results yet a gun fitter regardless whether they're trained at Perazzi or Hollands would never pick that up simply because it isn't logical.

[Blackpowder]

I really wonder about this idea that SxS guns are inherently less possible to shoot accurately. What sort of difference are we talking about? I shoot a SxS, OU and semi auto and really don't notice a difference. Granted my shooting skills are moderate, but for this to have become an accepted wisdom must be based on something. Clay shooters use OUs, but then they're almost always heavier than SxS guns, so it makes sense to use something heavier if you're shooting 100 shots in a short period. If someone like Digweed were to spend as much time practising with a suitable SxS as he does with his OUs how much worse would his scores really be? 1 or 2 birds in a hundred?

I shoot nothing but side by side and do plenty of missing with them. Having said that I have seen aged Guns lift their 25 inch barreled Churchill in a so lazy motion and sweep astonishingly high pheasants from the stratosphere. Equally I have seen wielders of 30 inch barreled ou/s miss simple shots. I think accuracy at moving targets has more to do with who is pulling the trigger, (and a decent gun fit) than the configeration of the barrels. Now I am not a gunsmith or shooting instructor but I cannot see why barrels bored to the same measurements , shooting the same cartridge can have any difference in range and accuracy be they sxs or ou.

 

Blackpowder

[Hamster]

I shoot nothing but side by side and do plenty of missing with them. Having said that I have seen aged Guns lift their 25 inch barreled Churchill in a so lazy motion and sweep astonishingly high pheasants from the stratosphere. Equally I have seen wielders of 30 inch barreled ou/s miss simple shots. I think accuracy at moving targets has more to do with who is pulling the trigger, (and a decent gun fit) than the configeration of the barrels. Now I am not a gunsmith or shooting instructor but I cannot see why barrels bored to the same measurements , shooting the same cartridge can have any difference in range and accuracy be they sxs or ou.

 

Blackpowder

 

It's not the barrels/bore/shells/chokes or their measurements, it's the innate greater shootability/pointability of the OU.

They tend to be heavier and so create less fatigue (good)

they tend to have longer barrels which help repeat accuracy on longer shots (good)

they tend to have higher and thicker combs which aid repeat correct mounting (good)

they tend to have more desirable fore end shapes which are easier to grip (and don't burn fingers) and control (good)

they always have better sighting plane arrangements because there is only one barrel in your line of vision and even that is hidden below the rib (good)

they tend to have one trigger which you pull twice so no need to move hand slightly forward/backward upon firing (good)

they always have a more desirable pistol grip shape compare to the straight grip of SS which can make quick second shots harder (good)

they always kick more uniformly backwards rather than sideways by definition of a SS (good)

they always play second fiddle to SS in gape when open (bad)

they might be perceived as less pretty in some circles (subjective).

Edited March 12, 2016 by Hamster

[TIGHTCHOKE]

It doesn't matter what you shoot if;

 

A. It fits you.

 

B. It is choked appropriately.

 

C. You use a good shell.

 

D. You know what you are doing.

[wymberley]

I shoot nothing but side by side and do plenty of missing with them. Having said that I have seen aged Guns lift their 25 inch barreled Churchill in a so lazy motion and sweep astonishingly high pheasants from the stratosphere. Equally I have seen wielders of 30 inch barreled ou/s miss simple shots. I think accuracy at moving targets has more to do with who is pulling the trigger, (and a decent gun fit) than the configeration of the barrels. Now I am not a gunsmith or shooting instructor but I cannot see why barrels bored to the same measurements , shooting the same cartridge can have any difference in range and accuracy be they sxs or ou.

 

Blackpowder

+1

 

It doesn't matter what you shoot if;

 

A. It fits you.

 

B. It is choked appropriately.

 

C. You use a good shell.

 

D. You know what you are doing.

+1

 

Intransigence is your enemy, confidence your ally.