Are the Belgians up to it?

[oowee]

I think we all have an issue of readiness but the Belgians have a huge issue of co-ordination and lack of practice between agencies. I see the escape and i also see the massive logistics issue of the casualties for the hospitals which appear to have little in place for emergencies of this kind.

 

 

For me its about extremists from whatever declared religion be it catholics, muslims or christians. Extremists are the issue not the religion. Christopher Hitchens captures it adequetly.

[oowee]

I think a large part of the 'why now?' falls into the variety of issues that the Internet has brought us. Nutters and wicked people worldwide can find and influence each other as never before. Paedos, terrorists and those with any grudge can reach out and find likeminded associates with whom to plan atrocities that would never have got out of their sick fantasies before.

Whilst electronic comms makes it easier to share ideas etc the biggest impact is that we get to hear all of the world news at the same time making our perception of doom that much greater. In reality are we more at risk, or do we perceive more risk?

[Hamster]

How about stopping all immigration to Europe? Or if our Government cares stopping all immigration to the UK? every immigrant is a potential terrorist, particularly the young men.

Remember that during ww2 we had camps for undesirables, maybe we should have the same again? The terrorists are muslims, not Christians, Catholics or Hindus, no bombs linked to druids or sun worshippers, just muslims, the so called religion of peace that is killing people around the world in a sick campaign waged by morons.

 

Really ? Stopping all immigration ? Both way I hope ? Every air gun owner is a potential pest, every shooter is potentially capable of mass shootings, every racist who thinks Muslims are bad is potentially an Anders Breivik, every Christian is potentially Dylann Roof, how about the KKK a bunch of white Christian fundamentalists who are known for lynchings and wouldn't think for a nano second if they had the opportunity to nuke billions ? Why do normal Christians even allow such a group to exist ? .................... well ?

 

Whether all terrorists are Muslim and not Christian or Jewish for that matter depends on who you ask and what you use as the barometer ............... does fake wars resulting in a million deaths count ? Does wiping out (millions and) whole civilisations count ? Do Aboriginals have a right to hate boat people ? Do a search on the millions dead at the hands of white men in Africa, doubt Africans call that integration.

 

Does bombing and effectively and deliberately destroying whole nations (Libya) infrastructure count as help or terrorism ? It all depends on perspective and who you ask.

Is that all.

 

It would be an intelligent start but no of course it isn't all.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Hamster

[Hamster]

How to stop terrorism :

 

 

[yod dropper]

After 9/11 government research showed about 10% support and sympathy for Al Qaeda within the UK muslim population, currently it's running at at about 10% for IS. Last night on World Service I heard that support for Boko Haram in Nigeria is at least 10% of the 80 million Muslim population.

 

The left leaning put their worldview onto this situation blaming foreign policy and a lack of education and opportunity as to why people are recruited to the Islamist causes. I wasn't aware that Belgium had an aggressive foreign policy nor those Islamic countries that have homegrown problems with Islamists. Within the UK it has been acknowledged that contrary to this opinion, it is the better educated and employed who are drawn to the cause, not the uneducated and unemployed though this was still being trotted out on the news last night. Unfortunately we also have a narrative in the UK of Muslim oppression around the world when in fact Christians are the most persecuted.

 

It's worth listening to the former Hizb-ut-Tahrir member, Maajid Nawaz and now of the Quilliam foundation. He talks of these Islamists being 'literalists' and that the Koran needs to be interpreted, not taken literally - he is a brave man. Whilst me may not have a complete answer he does have a unique insight.

 

You have to ask what it is about this religion that can allow interpretation of the Koran to justify their actions and worldview. In one way they are nothing more than a bunch of people who want to force their views on others, much like the (still active) marxist insurgents around the world, or militant animal rights activists. It's not just a case of can the Belgiums deal with it, but can 'we' and in some respect should we.

 

This will roll on for decades.

Edited March 23, 2016 by yod dropper

[rjimmer]

Stacking up on one side of the door prevents crossfire. They were expecting a fight, and didn't know what weapons the guy had on him. They left him with what appeared to be a clear exit, presumably to enable them to take a clear shot if needed

+1

[rjimmer]

Criminals relying on religion to gain popular support. Sound familiar?

[yod dropper]

I've just recalled what I think was a Newsnight article about Belgium. They have problems forming governments and more than once have operated without one for 18 months and more. This lack of agreement, coordination and ability to get things done was exemplified in the case of a traffic accident involving a car and a bike, which (ethnic) police force was responsible for which side of the road (literally), where it physically happened, where it physically ended etc. Such confusion and lack of coordination around something so simple does make you wonder if Belgium is actually up to the situation it finds itself in.

[keg]

Maybe we should ban all religion. I mean, we all know that the world isn't run by an invisible man in the sky. Perhaps we could put a condition on religions like if you want to be religious you have to be sterilized so that religion will die out in a generation.

Sensible post....

[JDog]

I've just recalled what I think was a Newsnight article about Belgium. They have problems forming governments and more than once have operated without one for 18 months and more. This lack of agreement, coordination and ability to get things done was exemplified in the case of a traffic accident involving a car and a bike, which (ethnic) police force was responsible for which side of the road (literally), where it physically happened, where it physically ended etc. Such confusion and lack of coordination around something so simple does make you wonder if Belgium is actually up to the situation it finds itself in.

As per my title. The country is in disarray and has been for years. So many fragmented layers of government and areas of responsibility. I heard a phrase today which said that...' Belgium is the weak underbelly of Europe'.

 

The level of security alert was not raised after the capture of the main target until after yesterday's bombings.

[Hamster]

Anyone know why the picture of the suspect who got away is so fuzzy ? You'd think that an airport would have state of the art lens technology plus would he not have been captured on a dozen different cameras and at different angles ? That photo is absolutely useless.

[100milesaway]

Yet I bet they could tell you the colour of his eyeballs on a traffic camera. from Auntie.

[Vince Green]

As per my title. The country is in disarray and has been for years. So many fragmented layers of government and areas of responsibility. I heard a phrase today which said that...' Belgium is the weak underbelly of Europe'.

 

The level of security alert was not raised after the capture of the main target until after yesterday's bombings.

Belgium has been very lucky in the past, they have had very few issues and because of that they have not had the need to develop their anti terrorist capacity. Its a chicken and egg situation but that's all changed now. They also had a very soft attitude to immigration and I'm sure that will change too. I suspect Holland has had a big wake up call as well.

[Laird Lugton]

"Belgium - a country invented by the British to annoy the French" - Charles de Gaulle.

 

It's a basket case of a country.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Laird Lugton

[bostonmick]

And in the news tonight as with all these terror attacks it is stated that the attackers were known to authorities. So it would seem our governments are quite happy to leave them in place until they have killed.

[hambone]

I hope it never happens but the only way to see if our emergency response it better is to experience a like for like terror attack. I suspect it will be no better.

[Scully]

I hope it never happens but the only way to see if our emergency response it better is to experience a like for like terror attack. I suspect it will be no better.

 

London has already experienced suicide bombings.

[besty57]

Just watched the news this morning.and people queuing in Brussels to use the metro and bieng searched .its a pity the eu didn't do this at its external borders .why is this not sorted first.

[Scully]

Just watched the news this morning.and people queuing in Brussels to use the metro and bieng searched .its a pity the eu didn't do this at its external borders .why is this not sorted first.

 

Pointless exercise; anyone who allows you to search their bag isn't a suicide bomber, not unless they're on their way to collect such a device. The only suicide bomber in a queue is the one who detonates it before being searched, which is exactly what happened in Brussels. They wheel or carry their explosives to a place which will have the maximum effect and then detonate it; a queue to get on the metro is the ideal location for doing so, especially at rush hour.

Trained spotters may be able to spot someone who appears to be avoiding such a checkpoint, but then what? How do you approach such a person to ask if you can check their bag? Who draws the short straw?

Even if we decided to stop everyone with a good tan and dark eyes, as some seem to have suggested, ( which is what has happened to me on numerous occasions....and far too late if I'd had sinister intentions as I was already in the terminal with hundreds of other people ) it still wont stop suicide bombings, for the reasons outlined above.

[besty57]

Valid point.never thought off it like that.so what's the answer

[yod dropper]

From a Radio 4 interview this morning and I verified it just now, finding this article in the Spiegel from last year.

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/belgium-has-become-a-center-of-european-terror-a-1063258.html

 

 

"The terror attack was the consequence of the opening of the borders on the European Continent, said Belgian Prime Minister Charles Michel." (I note that Nigel Farage is under attack for having said similar.)

"Brussels is a city of 1.2 million people and it has not one, but six different police agencies. These agencies answer to 19 different municipal mayors who are often political rivals."

"...deputy municipal mayor of Molenbeek, who says that the French-speaking areas insist on francophone police"

 

 

Brussels (not Belgium) has 19 municipal mayors and 6 different police authorities. It seems areas are run quite differently. They have quite different attitudes and approaches to integration and activities of the inhabitants. Coordinate that.

 

In the Flemish areas where they seek such things as asking people to speak their language it seems to have worked okay though they were accused of being xenophobic and in the Socialist run French areas the interviewee spoke of tolerance of intolerance (but at least they couldn't be accused of being xenophobic).

"...Belgian Prime Minister Michel said on Sunday. "We've tried prevention. Now we'll have to get repressive. It's been a form of laisser faire and laxity. Now we're paying the bill."

 

So, as per thread title, I doubt if the Belgians are up to it.

Edited March 24, 2016 by yod dropper

[Vince Green]

Could be talking about anywhere in Europe, unless you live in a police state you will not stop them. However, what you can do it track them and this can be done fairy cheaply and effectively now by electronic means. It won't prevent the bombs but it will give the intelligence a heads up.

 

Lets be honest, there is no co-ordination in Europe, not even minimally. Nobody even knows who is here, they just walk in.

 

These people have demonstrated yet again their ability to move from the middle east in and out of Europe with impunity and then around Europe from city to city. All in all Nigel Farage's comments are valid, there is no overview.

 

Does the will exist to do it?

Edited March 24, 2016 by Vince Green

[grrclark]

With reference to Yod's post above there is no lack of irony that fractured, dysfunctional and disconnected Belgium is home to the EU.

 

It is a microscale example of what the EU itself is.

 

It has manifestly failed to achieve a unified approach to governance and policing within it's own tiny borders; its population of citizens that are seperated by faith, by historical cultural identity, by language, by ethnicity, by lack of integration are not acting in union or with a single focus. Even the authorities operating under some semblance of centralised guidance fail to cooperate in any form of effectiveness.

 

Yet those in the ivory towers of the EU project that sit in the very centre of that little dysfunctional union believe that they can achieve what Belgium has failed to achieve on a scale that is 100 times larger with 100 times the complexity.

 

To get this post back onto topic, even if it is a bit tenuous, the failure of the Belgian security services at a macro level is due to a lack of leadership and cohesion, there is a common sense of purpose, but that's all. There is no real commitment to centralised engagement because of vested interest.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

The most telling comment about the atrocities in Brussels came from the man that posted on social media;

 

 

 

"According to David Cameron, we are supposedly safer within the EU, try telling that to those of us here in Brussels at the centre of the EU!"

[Scully]

Valid point.never thought off it like that.so what's the answer

That is the 20 million dollar question and your guess is as good as mine.

It's not as if we can sit down with them and negotiate because apart from killing non believers there's nothing they want.