36G carts, too much for pigeon?

[Wingman]

Lol

[Wilts#Dave]

Or 30 gram. Or 29 gram. Or 28 gram....

Exactly, about the oddest load a gunshop could sell as an alternative for pigeons. Either that or they have exceptionally poor stock levels!

[Wingman]

Well I used the 36G's and they were lovely to shoot, dropped a pigeon on the way from the car to the field about 30 yards out. Recoil was soft in fact I tried some 30G RC carts later in the day and the recoil was harsher on those. My A5 consumed them faultlessly and although the bag was a bit poor we have a great day out in the sunshine..

[Guest cookoff013]

i do get slightly annoyed with some shell recommendations, for instance #5s become instantly too much for pigeon, when in reality its a damn fine choice.

36g is about the old 1,1/4oz pigeon loads if yesteryear. what needs to be addressed is the whole package, speed, shot weight, shotsize etc.

 

quibbling over 1-2 grams is nothing they are just out of spec game loads -27-29-31 gram loads. why isnt this done with the smaller gauges? (because its pointless.)

 

i started using bigger loads ages ago, and the whole experience is mixed. buying the shells are a problem, everyone has an opinion, or its not recomended to shoot pigeons with 32.1grams of shot because "its too powerful"

 

using them is fine, no problems. infact i love shooting ground game with 4s or 2s 36g, good and thumpy.

 

shotguns are archaic they throw lots of heavy metal (accurately) in a general direction. it hasnt changed much, powders got more efficient, speeds got better.

 

it is often banted about that the 28g #7.5 is "perfect" for pigeon. its a broad subject, decoyed, flighted, in wood etc. but i can say 32g loads are a great all rounder.

 

the only reason shooters use 28g 7.5s are due to cost.

 

if 28g was the best choice, why have gamebore + digweed teamed up and "developed a 34g#5 extreme pigeon" when it could be easy for digweed to put in a 10gram cartridge and shoot a 1000 yard pigeon?

the manufacturers are always trying to pull one over the punters, always have always will.

 

what is next really?

shot hits targets, lots of shot hits targets more.

[JDog]

I believe that Bunny Basher was killing pigeons at over 30m with eighteen grams.

[Dekers]

30 or 32 5 work for me in the field for virtually anything.

 

I don't see 28 7.5 as perfect for pigeon at all, whoever it was that said that, but if works for the individual in their situation then fine!

 

[Guest cookoff013]

30 or 32 5 work for me in the field for virtually anything.

 

I don't see 28 7.5 as perfect for pigeon at all, whoever it was that said that, but if works for the individual in their situation then fine!

 

 

yeah, its a great load, #5 is about the tipping point where #5@ 1000fps MV (thats an english #5) is a great performer at 40yards (and beyond.) any 1300fps speeds are a bonus !

thats about the middle road between silly small shot, and overly large.

Noblesport released some shells 28g #5 here in the uk and they performed very well, and to boot, very very cheap, but sadly in plastic. its probably one of the finer economy shells.

 

all in all if i were to release a budget shell, 28gram fibre #6 would probably be it. its virtually exellent for all "uncompromised english shooting" be it clays / english game birds.

i use choke and lack of faster speed to regulate patterns,

 

i may tinker and pattern test 21g #5 @ 1200 fps and see what happens. it may be a good experiment. dunno, i can make anything.

[Terry2016]

I have always used heavier cartridges, I currently use Gambore Dark storm 36g 5s, or RC JK6 36g 6s..

 

I have tried with many alternatives and it never seems to go too well.. maybe its the confidence I having in using what I know.. however not to many occasions where the pigeons were so bashed up they were not good for eating,, and that would only normally be when they come right in and I shoot the instead of waiting for them to get out a bit further.

 

so,, its all about how you shoot ... my son used to knock down pigeons with a .410 .. so light loads are just as effective... its all about what you like... as they will all do the job (in most cases) and .... theres no such thing as too much :-)

 

Good Luck with your cartridges and let us all know how you get on

 

Terry

[walshie]

At least you won't have to tenderise the meat before you cook it.

[anser2]

Unless you are using a very light gun 36 gr loads will do the job for pigeons fine , but the problem comes when you fire a large number of them through a s\s or o\u. If you are in the lucky position to shoot a 100 bird day most of us will have fired over 150 cartridges within a few hours and thats when 36 gr cartridges become uncomfortable to shoot. They might have their place for long range birds , but for most shooters an oz of number 6 will kill any pigeon out to 50 yards , be kinder on the shoulder, and pocket.

Edited June 7, 2016 by anser2

[tignme]

 

 

cookff013, You stated anyone using a trap load for pigeons is doing so for cost reasons. Ive shot registered clays using hull Sovereigns in lead and used he same load for pigeons.Check out the cost of any top trap load and you will see i dont use trap loads as a cost saving exercise.

Yes on the steel trap loads they are 160.00 a thousand.

I shoot approximately seven thousand cartridges at pigeons each year so compareed to the OP at 400 per housand yes im on a cos saving exercise.

In my opinion nobody in ther e right mind would shoot 400 per k cartridges at pigeons.

As for old george boy he is one of a small percentage of shooters capable of shooting anything out to 70 yards.

Each to their own.

[Guest cookoff013]

I should have said budget clay shells.

[GingerCat]

Nothing wrong with 36g other than a few quid more per slab.

[neutron619]

Put too many brands in the market and we end up with the farcical "angels dancing on the head of a pin" situation we're seeing here, where minuscule differences in cartridges are pored over and analyzed as though an extra grain of powder here or gram of shot there will turn a mediocre shooter into "The George".

 

Does anyone remember that people used to buy their gun and have it "regulated" for a particular cartridge? Some of you might think that was a nice little earner for the cartridge companies, since it involved hooking people into buying the same shell over and over again, regardless of price (yes, whether that's 1 guinea a slab, or 1 guinea, 14 shillings and six!). The fact is though, the chap at the shop sold you the gun and then told you which cartridge to use with it - because some poor sod at the factory had spent a morning firing every available brand of cartridge (yes, all three of them) through it to find the one that patterned best in that gun at all ranges. The idea of swapping cartridges every 250 rounds to see if 36g worked better than 32g or if #5 worked better than #6 just didn't come into it.

 

It's a shame really. As one poster says, less than 1/2oz of #6 from a .410 will knock pigeons down all day. I've spent the last two weekends shooting some very large crows out of the sky with ¾oz of the same, pushed through through a moderately choked 28 gauge. The only bird I winged last time was after changing over to 1oz of - yup, you guessed it - #6 through a very tight 16 gauge. (Cooky - good call on the budget shell, by the way.) In my car, I had a 12 gauge and a box (or three) of shells loaded up with 39g of #5: yes, I shoot them at pigeons and yes they reach out a very, very long way - if I point the gun in the right direction.

 

What's the point of that list? Well, they all kill birds. 12 grams, 21 grams - I've got as many grams as you like. Want more grams? Buy a bigger tube. 4 bore anyone?

 

The point is that each one of those cartridges works well in the gun with which I use it. Since I started reloading for shotgun, I've patterned each gun with each cartridge repeatedly and - effectively - regulated them. I no longer change choke, or cartridge, and my goodness what a difference! My little black book says I shot 152 birds last year. I've managed almost that many already this year, less than halfway through, and the rate is going up, not down. All that from just "not tinkering about".

 

It's a shame that the OP couldn't get his usual cartridge since it's the lack of consistency, if anything, that will make his shooting suffer. It might be fine, of course - he may have stumbled on a cartridge that he and his gun really "like" and he'll never change back - but then I don't know if he's patterned the new or the old cartridges, so every shot may be a shot in the dark, so to speak.

 

There's nothing wrong with firing 36g at pigeon. A wiser reloader than I once correctly observed on these forums (and to some consternation from other folk) that "a shotgun performs best with big loads of large shot". I happen to agree. Less will do the job of course, but more makes it a lot easier on the shooter and the birds. We've all got to stop worrying about 2 grams of pellets either way: none of the 12 gauge cartridges we talk about week in, week out, are remotely close to being "marginal" and (G.D. notwithstanding, perhaps) none of the birds we miss or wound are down to the cartridge unless your shot size is too small.

 

Pick the one that comes in your favourite colour for all it matters. Just make sure it patterns well and then keep using it. Same gun, same cartridge, same choke. If you need something different, change guns.

 

</Rant>

Edited June 8, 2016 by neutron619

[Wingman]

Very insightful thank you.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Slow day at work then Adam?

 

I love how your mind works and I will admit to having a gun regulated to a Winchester cartridge many years ago, but it was to ensure a good ejection from a Remington 1100!

 

And as to colour, George has made his shells in red this time, much better than the black ones! :lol:

Edited June 8, 2016 by TIGHTCHOKE

[neutron619]

Slow day at work then Adam?

 

I love how your mind works and I will admit to having a gun regulated to a Winchester cartridge many years ago, but it was to ensure a good ejection from a Remington 1100!

 

And as to colour, George has made his shells in red this time, much better than the black ones! :lol:

 

"Go and talk to the DBA" they keep telling me. "Ok," methinks, "but the DBA always seems to be outside having a cigarette. Guess I'll have to fill the time until he comes back somehow..."

 

Those red shells - they'll be much better, yup. You'll definitely improve your hit rate with those. Yahurk!

Edited June 8, 2016 by neutron619

[wymberley]

 

Weedy, girlie types sometimes have issues.

 

We big fat ****ers using man sized guns don't have such difficulties.

That's better!

[Terry2016]

Put too many brands in the market and we end up with the farcical "angels dancing on the head of a pin" situation we're seeing here, where minuscule differences in cartridges are pored over and analyzed as though an extra grain of powder here or gram of shot there will turn a mediocre shooter into "The George".

 

Does anyone remember that people used to buy their gun and have it "regulated" for a particular cartridge? Some of you might think that was a nice little earner for the cartridge companies, since it involved hooking people into buying the same shell over and over again, regardless of price (yes, whether that's 1 guinea a slab, or 1 guinea, 14 shillings and six!). The fact is though, the chap at the shop sold you the gun and then told you which cartridge to use with it - because some poor sod at the factory had spent a morning firing every available brand of cartridge (yes, all three of them) through it to find the one that patterned best in that gun at all ranges. The idea of swapping cartridges every 250 rounds to see if 36g worked better than 32g or if #5 worked better than #6 just didn't come into it.

 

It's a shame really. As one poster says, less than 1/2oz of #6 from a .410 will knock pigeons down all day. I've spent the last two weekends shooting some very large crows out of the sky with ¾oz of the same, pushed through through a moderately choked 28 gauge. The only bird I winged last time was after changing over to 1oz of - yup, you guessed it - #6 through a very tight 16 gauge. (Cooky - good call on the budget shell, by the way.) In my car, I had a 12 gauge and a box (or three) of shells loaded up with 39g of #5: yes, I shoot them at pigeons and yes they reach out a very, very long way - if I point the gun in the right direction.

 

What's the point of that list? Well, they all kill birds. 12 grams, 21 grams - I've got as many grams as you like. Want more grams? Buy a bigger tube. 4 bore anyone?

 

The point is that each one of those cartridges works well in the gun with which I use it. Since I started reloading for shotgun, I've patterned each gun with each cartridge repeatedly and - effectively - regulated them. I no longer change choke, or cartridge, and my goodness what a difference! My little black book says I shot 152 birds last year. I've managed almost that many already this year, less than halfway through, and the rate is going up, not down. All that from just "not tinkering about".

 

It's a shame that the OP couldn't get his usual cartridge since it's the lack of consistency, if anything, that will make his shooting suffer. It might be fine, of course - he may have stumbled on a cartridge that he and his gun really "like" and he'll never change back - but then I don't know if he's patterned the new or the old cartridges, so every shot may be a shot in the dark, so to speak.

 

There's nothing wrong with firing 36g at pigeon. A wiser reloader than I once correctly observed on these forums (and to some consternation from other folk) that "a shotgun performs best with big loads of large shot". I happen to agree. Less will do the job of course, but more makes it a lot easier on the shooter and the birds. We've all got to stop worrying about 2 grams of pellets either way: none of the 12 gauge cartridges we talk about week in, week out, are remotely close to being "marginal" and (G.D. notwithstanding, perhaps) none of the birds we miss or wound are down to the cartridge unless your shot size is too small.

 

Pick the one that comes in your favourite colour for all it matters. Just make sure it patterns well and then keep using it. Same gun, same cartridge, same choke. If you need something different, change guns.

 

</Rant>

 

+1 ..

[coyotemaster]

Gawd I wish I was young enough to knock me shoulder out every time I went shooting. In all Gods honesty why would anyone want to shoot 100+ 36grm cartridges on a days pigeon shooting.

 

Is this some sort of self flagellation where you have to punish yourself for killing Gods creatures.

 

Jeeze I like to be able to hold the steering wheel with both hands on the way home.

 

 

 

G

That was my exact thought. When we were blessed to have large amounts of pigeons(feral as they were) I opted to shoot 24gram loads with hard shot and use a little more choke if the shots were long. One might be surprised how much better 7/8 oz. of shot patterns from a 12 bore than a heavier load that has much more shot deformation due to set back. Fatigue, flinching and sore shoulders need not be a part of a high volume day.

[neutron619]

That was my exact thought. When we were blessed to have large amounts of pigeons(feral as they were) I opted to shoot 24gram loads with hard shot and use a little more choke if the shots were long. One might be surprised how much better 7/8 oz. of shot patterns from a 12 bore than a heavier load that has much more shot deformation due to set back. Fatigue, flinching and sore shoulders need not be a part of a high volume day.

 

24g loads with hard shot... Clay loads then?

 

As for shot deformation in heavy loads / better patterns in light loads: well - it depends how and how hard you push them (i.e. what powder). Also what shot size, what wad, what primer...

 

It's perfectly possible to buy, off the shelf, heavy loads that pattern perfectly acceptably compared to lighter loads. Actually, it's usually easier to find such loads because the velocities involved are lower and this tends (I'm talking "general trend", not "hard fact" here, in case anyone is concerned about that) to make for better patterns. As do the larger shot usually found in heavier cartridges (else what's the point in making them heavier - 40g of #9 anyone?). Loading one's own makes it even easier.

 

Fast powder, big acceleration shock (from a low-mass shot charge), and high muzzle velocity quite often contribute to degradation in pattern quality. We can reasonably safely assume that the cartridges you're describing above tick all of those boxes - please contradict me if I'm wrong. In fact, in cases of extreme, sudden acceleration, 10-15% of the pellets never reach the circle to be counted - they're forced so hard into the wad under acceleration that they never detach from it - quite a hit to pattern quality and that's before you start counting pellet holes! The only general trend working in your favour above would be the hard shot which does, as you suggest, tend to improve pattern quality.

 

If it works for you, great! - I'm happy for you that you're smashing clays and killing birds. I'm very much not trying to suggest that you didn't get fantastic patterns with those cartridges through your gun. I've seen full choked barrels blow patterns to look like cylinder (or worse), and skeet-choked 28 gauges that force you to shoot the gun like a rifle because the pattern is so tight. There's a huge variation in what's possible and that's before we get to environmental conditions like temperature, air pressure, weather...

 

However, your approach, understandable as it is - recoil is a factor we all have to consider - is at odds both with historical practice and the majority of what's generally accepted to work where improving the quality and consistency of patterns is concerned. If your experience has been different - well - it falls well within the range of possibility and I'm not arguing with it. On the other hand, I don't really want people to read this thread and take away that the ideas that a small load of small(?), hard shot at ultra high velocity is the place they should start looking for better pattern quality. It may also work out well for them if they do, but it's not the place they're most likely to find it.

Edited June 10, 2016 by neutron619

[TIGHTCHOKE]

 

24g loads with hard shot... Clay loads then?

 

As for shot deformation in heavy loads / better patterns in light loads: well - it depends how and how hard you push them (i.e. what powder). Also what shot size, what wad, what primer...

 

It's perfectly possible to buy, off the shelf, heavy loads that pattern perfectly acceptably compared to lighter loads. Actually, it's usually easier to find such loads because the velocities involved are lower and this tends (I'm talking "general trend", not "hard fact" here, in case anyone is concerned about that) to make for better patterns. As do the larger shot usually found in heavier cartridges (else what's the point in making them heavier - 40g of #9 anyone?). Loading one's own makes it even easier.

 

Fast powder, big acceleration shock (from a low-mass shot charge), and high muzzle velocity quite often contribute to degradation in pattern quality. We can reasonably safely assume that the cartridges you're describing above tick all of those boxes - please contradict me if I'm wrong. In fact, in cases of extreme, sudden acceleration, 10-15% of the pellets never reach the circle to be counted - they're forced so hard into the wad under acceleration that they never detach from it - quite a hit to pattern quality and that's before you start counting pellet holes! The only general trend working in your favour above would be the hard shot which does, as you suggest, tend to improve pattern quality.

 

If it works for you, great! - I'm happy for you that you're smashing clays and killing birds. I'm very much not trying to suggest that you didn't get fantastic patterns with those cartridges through your gun. I've seen full choked barrels blow patterns to look like cylinder (or worse), and skeet-choked 28 gauges that force you to shoot the gun like a rifle because the pattern is so tight. There's a huge variation in what's possible and that's before we get to environmental conditions like temperature, air pressure, weather...

 

However, your approach, understandable as it is - recoil is a factor we all have to consider - is at odds both with historical practice and the majority of what's generally accepted to work where improving the quality and consistency of patterns is concerned. If your experience has been different - well - it falls well within the range of possibility and I'm not arguing with it. On the other hand, I don't really want people to read this thread and take away that the ideas that a small load of small(?), hard shot at ultra high velocity is the place they should start looking for better pattern quality. It may also work out well for them if they do, but it's not the place they're most likely to find it.

 

You've proven a light load can be absolutely the correct way to go!

[motty]

 

24g loads with hard shot... Clay loads then?

 

As for shot deformation in heavy loads / better patterns in light loads: well - it depends how and how hard you push them (i.e. what powder). Also what shot size, what wad, what primer...

 

It's perfectly possible to buy, off the shelf, heavy loads that pattern perfectly acceptably compared to lighter loads. Actually, it's usually easier to find such loads because the velocities involved are lower and this tends (I'm talking "general trend", not "hard fact" here, in case anyone is concerned about that) to make for better patterns. As do the larger shot usually found in heavier cartridges (else what's the point in making them heavier - 40g of #9 anyone?). Loading one's own makes it even easier.

 

Fast powder, big acceleration shock (from a low-mass shot charge), and high muzzle velocity quite often contribute to degradation in pattern quality. We can reasonably safely assume that the cartridges you're describing above tick all of those boxes - please contradict me if I'm wrong. In fact, in cases of extreme, sudden acceleration, 10-15% of the pellets never reach the circle to be counted - they're forced so hard into the wad under acceleration that they never detach from it - quite a hit to pattern quality and that's before you start counting pellet holes! The only general trend working in your favour above would be the hard shot which does, as you suggest, tend to improve pattern quality.

 

If it works for you, great! - I'm happy for you that you're smashing clays and killing birds. I'm very much not trying to suggest that you didn't get fantastic patterns with those cartridges through your gun. I've seen full choked barrels blow patterns to look like cylinder (or worse), and skeet-choked 28 gauges that force you to shoot the gun like a rifle because the pattern is so tight. There's a huge variation in what's possible and that's before we get to environmental conditions like temperature, air pressure, weather...

 

However, your approach, understandable as it is - recoil is a factor we all have to consider - is at odds both with historical practice and the majority of what's generally accepted to work where improving the quality and consistency of patterns is concerned. If your experience has been different - well - it falls well within the range of possibility and I'm not arguing with it. On the other hand, I don't really want people to read this thread and take away that the ideas that a small load of small(?), hard shot at ultra high velocity is the place they should start looking for better pattern quality. It may also work out well for them if they do, but it's not the place they're most likely to find it.

I have never seen that amount of pellets still attached to a wad. That seems quite a lot.

Light loads need not be fast. Some of the 28 gram 7s i tend to favour for pigeon shooting, are only travelling at around 1250fps.

As far as the original question goes, 36 grams of shot isn't too much for pigeons, but i personally wouldn't want to fire a couple of hundred in a session.

[coyotemaster]

 

24g loads with hard shot... Clay loads then?

 

As for shot deformation in heavy loads / better patterns in light loads: well - it depends how and how hard you push them (i.e. what powder). Also what shot size, what wad, what primer...

 

It's perfectly possible to buy, off the shelf, heavy loads that pattern perfectly acceptably compared to lighter loads. Actually, it's usually easier to find such loads because the velocities involved are lower and this tends (I'm talking "general trend", not "hard fact" here, in case anyone is concerned about that) to make for better patterns. As do the larger shot usually found in heavier cartridges (else what's the point in making them heavier - 40g of #9 anyone?). Loading one's own makes it even easier.

 

Fast powder, big acceleration shock (from a low-mass shot charge), and high muzzle velocity quite often contribute to degradation in pattern quality. We can reasonably safely assume that the cartridges you're describing above tick all of those boxes - please contradict me if I'm wrong. In fact, in cases of extreme, sudden acceleration, 10-15% of the pellets never reach the circle to be counted - they're forced so hard into the wad under acceleration that they never detach from it - quite a hit to pattern quality and that's before you start counting pellet holes! The only general trend working in your favour above would be the hard shot which does, as you suggest, tend to improve pattern quality.

 

If it works for you, great! - I'm happy for you that you're smashing clays and killing birds. I'm very much not trying to suggest that you didn't get fantastic patterns with those cartridges through your gun. I've seen full choked barrels blow patterns to look like cylinder (or worse), and skeet-choked 28 gauges that force you to shoot the gun like a rifle because the pattern is so tight. There's a huge variation in what's possible and that's before we get to environmental conditions like temperature, air pressure, weather...

 

However, your approach, understandable as it is - recoil is a factor we all have to consider - is at odds both with historical practice and the majority of what's generally accepted to work where improving the quality and consistency of patterns is concerned. If your experience has been different - well - it falls well within the range of possibility and I'm not arguing with it. On the other hand, I don't really want people to read this thread and take away that the ideas that a small load of small(?), hard shot at ultra high velocity is the place they should start looking for better pattern quality. It may also work out well for them if they do, but it's not the place they're most likely to find it.

First of all thanks for your courteous expression of disagreement--it is truly one of the things I missed in my absence.

I should probably have included that my handloads are only running around 1150-1175 fps. You are correct in your assertion that any load pushed too fast will have a degradation in pattern efficiency. Pellets are very inefficient in terms of ballistic dynamics. Unlike a bullet with a relatively efficient form (and corresponding BC) shot tends to lose velocity rapidly regardless of initial velocity. I have found that pushing lead pellets any faster than around 1250fps is entering into a state of diminishing returns concerning patterns and energy delivered. Any discussion of speed, pellets and patterns would be futile without establishing the importance of high antimony shot as you are already aware.

Bob Brister in his outstanding treatise on ballistics chose to perform his pattern testing on a moving target to negate the effect of counting the pattern string as on a stationary board. This is where the shorter more efficient pattern of a 24 gram loads shines as all the pellets arrive pretty much at the same time due to the efficiency of bore size vs.shot column height. When you fire a 36 gram load into a stationary pattern board the results will look truly impressive but in real world ballistics many of those pellets are arriving late and would be strung out perhaps as far as several feet.

I too started out shooting the standard 1 1/8 oz. bushing in my Pacific press, then in reading I thought the logic of less shot and slower speeds might be better. My final destination found my dropping a little less than 7/8 oz. with around 16.8gr. of 700X for the above stated velocity with a Claybuster gray wad.

I can tell by your responses that you are a seasoned(and probably a very good) shooter and have spent some time at the range. I am not trying to sell anyone anything only suggesting that, in regards to lead shot, a reduced load in my experience will perform right alongside a heavier load all other factors being equal and this being due to less setback and the shorter column height which are mutually beneficial.The biggest advantage in my opinion is the lower recoil and less fatigue from it. As for choke I am generally shooting somewhere around .010-.015 constriction depending on conditions. Thanks again for your patience and allowing me to express what works for me.