Brexit - Merged Threads

[Nuke]

Hi all!

 

This is my impressions as a complete (swede) outsider.

 

Your new PM is either trying to once and for all kill of Boris politically or she really doesn't give a rats a** about foreign affairs. Around here BJ is considered more of up and comming court yester than the potential future king. I wonder if he really thought Brexit would win?

 

Farage will be back, he will never be satisfied with the results of any negotiations and I also think he's too adicted to the bright lights of the big stage.

 

You think that the UK is a too important market to not be allowed back into the free trade union or will easily be able to replace the european products, mainly cars and food?, from other countries.

 

I think that it may be very possible for you to get access to the inner market for goods, since nobody is really concerned about you as a manufactoring nation anymore, but financial services is another matter.

 

You will probably lose that (to Dublin would be my guess), but I guess this is more of a "London vs The rest of the country" situation and not really that high on the agenda for ordnary folk?

 

/Markus

[mick miller]

Wow, some really big assumptions here. No one not native would vote to leave?

Okay, after recent surgery, as I lay recovering from anesthetic, I spoke to the nurse attending me (originally Indian) about Brexit. She voted Leave.

The the nice anesthetist came over, a lovely man originally from Pakistan, he had voted to Leave.

Later that day, whilst recovering at home, the window cleaner came round for the bi-monthly clean. Piotr, who came to the UK from Poland 8 years ago and now a British citizen, also voted to Leave. We had an interesting chat, he likened the EU as very similar to the politics of the former USSR and it was hard to question his personal experiences as, fortunately, I have never experienced living under a communist regime.

My own father came from West Berlin in the former Soviet controlled East Germany back in the 60s, he is still a German citizen, who lives here as a resident. My mother, whose father was a Polish war hero and mother was French, considers herself British and why wouldn't she? She was born here.

A product of that continental mix, I voted to leave. Simply because I believe completely in the principals of a democratically elected government that represents it's electorate. The EU doesn't.

Edited July 15, 2016 by mick miller

[Vince Green]

Hi all!

 

This is my impressions as a complete (swede) outsider.

 

Your new PM is either trying to once and for all kill of Boris politically or she really doesn't give a rats a** about foreign affairs. Around here BJ is considered more of up and comming court yester than the potential future king. I wonder if he really thought Brexit would win?

 

Farage will be back, he will never be satisfied with the results of any negotiations and I also think he's too adicted to the bright lights of the big stage.

 

You think that the UK is a too important market to not be allowed back into the free trade union or will easily be able to replace the european products, mainly cars and food?, from other countries.

 

I think that it may be very possible for you to get access to the inner market for goods, since nobody is really concerned about you as a manufactoring nation anymore, but financial services is another matter.

 

You will probably lose that (to Dublin would be my guess), but I guess this is more of a "London vs The rest of the country" situation and not really that high on the agenda for ordnary folk?

 

/Markus

The trade we do selling to Europe is falling away rapidly, bankrupt countries don't have any money to trade. Most of the financial services that pass through London has nothing to do with the EU, to be honest the significance of the EU to our trade has been overstated. We can live without French cheese and Italian wine.

 

The hundreds of millions of pounds a day it is costing us to be in is money down the drain. Thousands of jobs in the British manufacturing industries have been lost because the EU has given companies massive bribes to relocate in places like Poland. Look at British Steel, how could they compete when Germany gives their own steel industry blatantly illegal subsidies?

Edited July 15, 2016 by Vince Green

[MrM]

Pigeon Watch seems overwhelmingly in favour of leaving. Say 98 percent for ease.

 

So extrapolating the PW figures, 3/49 leave voters were unable to conceal their racist views. Over 5% of the vote leave camp.

 

 

 

 

Seeing as there are over 38,000 registered users on here, and when someone ran a Poll after the referendum we only had 200 members voting (which gave an 86% leave), and as you say probably only around 50 actually joining in the debate and expressing their views, it is ridiculous to say 98% of PWs voted to leave.

[MrM]

The trade we do selling to Europe is falling away rapidly, bankrupt countries don't have any money to trade. Most of the financial services that pass through London has nothing to do with the EU, to be honest the significance of the EU to our trade has been overstated. We can live without French cheese and Italian wine.

 

 

Currently the EU as a whole counts for 47% of our exports, where as for example the UK accounts for about 7% of Germany's exports, just to put a perspective on it.

Edited July 15, 2016 by MrM

[Granett]

Seeing as there are over 38,000 registered users on here, and when someone ran a Poll after the referendum we only had 200 members voting (which gave an 86% leave), and as you say probably only around 50 actually joining in the debate and expressing their views, it is ridiculous to say 98% of PWs voted to leave.

I agree. I suspect a lot of remainers looked and decided to stay out of this debate (and probably even out of that poll).

 

That said, if the PW percentage is lower, the extrapolation will be higher... 3/(0.86*50) as opposed to 3/(0.98*50) to use what are the pretty arbitrary numbers in this example.

 

On Markus' post, I agree (except that I suspect Frankfurters will be the main beneficiary out of London's banking decline.

 

What metrics do people suggest will serve as good barometers of the success of Brexit?

 

Change in GDP relative to France and Germany?

Edited July 15, 2016 by Granett

[Rewulf]

I agree. I suspect a lot of remainers looked and decided to stay out of this debate (and probably even out of that poll).

 

You suspect,so therefore you will take that as fact I presume?

So the poll is wrong,because remainers didnt bother to vote,good sound logic there

 

That said, if the PW percentage is lower, the extrapolation will be higher... 3/(0.86*50) as opposed to 3/(0.98*50) to use what are the pretty arbitrary numbers in this example.

 

Ill make this really simple,your maths is based on heresay ,and assumptions,really poor logic and reasoning.

 

On Markus' post, I agree (except that I suspect Frankfurters will be the main beneficiary out of London's banking decline.

 

Markus hasnt a clue about living in this country,he has based all his opinion on the media.

The only reason you agree with him is because he agrees with your mardy doom mongering.

 

What metrics do people suggest will serve as good barometers of the success of Brexit?

 

I would say the happiness of the main population,is that not the most important thing?

You might think that finances are the gauge of the publics happiness,I disagree.

Although money helps,it most certainly doesnt bring happiness per se.

 

Change in GDP relative to France and Germany?

 

I asked you when you would start to believe Brexit could work,you said 'when it does'

I think you are so set in your beliefs,it will never work for you,you have a pessimistic attitude ,simply because you didnt get your own way.

[Gordon R]

Over 5% of the vote leave camp.

 

 

 

Well that is certainly the majority of 33 million.

 

Granett - you are either a troll or a simpleton. There is no third choice.

[Granett]

 

 

Well that is certainly the majority of 33 million.

 

Granett - you are either a troll or a simpleton. There is no third choice.

Your particular penchant for ad hominem fallacies is staggeringly incessant.

 

A large chunk of vote leave voters bold or dumb enough to reveal racist grounds for their vote. How many more conceal it (like the guy in the C4 video) is unknowable.

 

Maybe a majority, maybe not. But a significant chunk. Which is what I've been saying (and what you've been misrepresenting as a strawman argument) all along.

[Rewulf]

Your particular penchant for ad hominem fallacies is staggeringly incessant.

 

A large chunk of vote leave voters bold or dumb enough to reveal racist grounds for their vote. How many more conceal it (like the guy in the C4 video) is unknowable.

 

Maybe a majority, maybe not. But a significant chunk. Which is what I've been saying (and what you've been misrepresenting as a strawman argument) all along.

 

Well what kind of argument is that ?

You state the figure is 'un knowable' yet then say its a significant chunk ,maybe even a majority.

Try that argument in court !

[Velocette]

I,d be really interested to know why "racist" is such a terrible thing to accuse someone of. Its just a view,,like any other view.

[Rewulf]

'I think he did it Mlud '

'But do you have evidence Mr Grannet ?'

'No Mlud,but he used a strawman argument with a logical fallacy,and besides,I think hes a racist ,so hes obviously guilty of something'

[Granett]

By the extrapolated figures from PW at least 6 or 7% of those voting to leave were happy or feckless enough to be open about racist grounds for voting. That minimum figure (excluding those willing and/or able to conceal their racism) still constitutes a large chunk - over 1m voters - however you cut it.

I,d be really interested to know why "racist" is such a terrible thing to accuse someone of. Its just a view,,like any other view.

Yeah, you're not alone. I was told off for not respecting racism as a belief. Edited July 15, 2016 by Granett

[MrM]

I agree. I suspect a lot of remainers looked and decided to stay out of this debate (and probably even out of that poll).

 

 

So if you agree why post spurious figures like 98% then?

[Granett]

So if you agree why post spurious figures like 98% then?

Because until you spoke up and drew my attention to the poll I was going off the assumption that the participants and views in this thread were representative of PW as a whole.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Never assume, check!

[Rewulf]

Assumption is the mother of all logical fallacies...I think thats how it goes

[ShootingEgg]

So would wanting to control this countrues borders to keep the likes of isis out seen as racist?

 

Is the current system not discriminating in the way that any European citizen can enter freely yet internationally you have to go through application... Surely that is a discrimination.... Grannet you seem hell bent on being a bit of a **** and saying that if you voted out you are un educated racist and stupid. When in reality you are making yourself seem a complete and utter ****.

[Granett]

You *do* realise that MrM's figures mean a larger extrapolation, right?

 

My suggested figures would reflect that approx 6% of PW leave voters fell into the category of happy/feckless racists.

 

His mean it's 7%.

So would wanting to control this countrues borders to keep the likes of isis out seen as racist?

 

Is the current system not discriminating in the way that any European citizen can enter freely yet internationally you have to go through application... Surely that is a discrimination.... Grannet you seem hell bent on being a bit of a **** and saying that if you voted out you are un educated racist and stupid. When in reality you are making yourself seem a complete and utter ****.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say it but I do not believe everyone who voted to leave on PW or across the country is racist.

 

I'm happy to leave it, and I'm only responding to flawed challenges on the point.

[Rewulf]

You *do* realise that MrM's figures mean a larger extrapolation, right?

 

My suggested figures would reflect that approx 6% of PW leave voters fell into the category of happy/feckless racists.

 

His mean it's 7%.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say it but I do not believe everyone who voted to leave on PW or across the country is racist.

 

I'm happy to leave it, and I'm only responding to flawed challenges on the point.

 

You seem very keen to 'prove' using your dubious logic, that the PW membership,or at least some of it are racist.

Why is that so important to you ?

Where will it get you in life ,will it prove some kind of theory,or are you a crusading member of the anti fascist league?

You behaviour on this forum is bizzare, your reasoning is bizzare ,I find it difficult to believe you can function in a courtroom.

Or perhaps you are working with something like gun control network,to try to 'prove ' a relationship between guns and racists ?

You are barking up the wrong tree my friend.

[MrM]

By the extrapolated figures from PW at least 6 or 7% of those voting to leave were happy or feckless enough to be open about racist grounds for voting. That minimum figure (excluding those willing and/or able to conceal their racism) still constitutes a large chunk - over 1m voters - however you cut it.

Yeah, you're not alone. I was told off for not respecting racism as a belief.

 

Your argument seems to be centred around the reported increase in hate crime that has emerged since the referendum. However there has always been a fairly substantial underlying race related hate subculture in this country (the very existence of the BNP shows this), but I would argue that there is no factual basis that can relate these incidents to anyone's allegiance to either Leave or Remain, apart from what appears in the media.

 

All you have to do is look further back at other instances (the Tottenham riots for one) where a race motivated incident led to a large amount of mostly unrelated violence. My point is that there is an element of the population that will use any available opportunity to cause civil disobedience under a superficial banner.

[mick miller]

Back to the real issues.. let the sensible among us put the cheap, throwaway accusations of racism behind us. I certainly can, having already had a lifetime of being accused of being a 'nazi' by the more knuckle-dragging of British society, simply because of my surname, I have developed a reasonably thick skin.

 

I can not, for the life of me, see what the attraction to the EU organisation the losing side in this particular experiment in *proportional representation love so much. Do they love the undemocratic way the members are elected? The lack of accountability? The massive amounts of money that are frittered away on the project? The bullying of Mediterranean peoples and the enslavement of the same to endless years of poverty renamed 'austerity'? The entirely moribund financial state of the Union? Or are they simply, mistakenly, conflating the EU with Europe and Europeans? (I love everything about the latter two).

 

You have to also wonder why they accuse the Leave campaign of peddling lies while simultaneously ignoring the elephant, rhino and hippo in the room. And we were told the British economy would be pushed to the brink of collapse if we voted to leave, it seems the opposite was true.

 

(* I also find it odd how the SNP, LibDems and Greens bemoan the results of the referendum, an example of proportional representation, whilst at the same time claiming that this self same system should be the chosen method by which the electorate choose their leaders, parties and government, rather than the first-past-the post-system. How do you answer that dichotomy one wonders?).

Edited July 15, 2016 by mick miller

[miroku_fan]

This thread has surely served any useful purpose. It has degenerated into rants, assumptions, opinions, disparaging remarks and personal attacks by all sides on the Brexit issue. It should be noted that the views expressed in this thread have been written by a handful of individuals and the majority of PW members have quite rightly decided not to contribute to some ridiculous and frankly absurd statements on this matter. There have been some good factual points made that have been dismissed by some contributors with unnecessary disparaging and at times vitriolic comments.

 

The referendum has been held and the decision has been made regarding the UK leaving the EU. It now has to happen. The real problem seems to stem from the observation that Brexit clearly means different things to different people and it is going to be extremely difficult to get a concensus without someone throwing their toys out of the pram.

[Savhmr]

Back to the real issues.. let the sensible among us put the cheap, throwaway accusations of racism behind us. I certainly can, having already had a lifetime of being accused of being a 'nazi' by the more knuckle-dragging of British society, simply because of my surname, I have developed a reasonably thick skin.

 

I can not, for the life of me, see what the attraction to the EU organisation the losing side in this particular experiment in *proportional representation love so much. Do they love the undemocratic way the members are elected? The lack of accountability? The massive amounts of money that are frittered away on the project? The bullying of Mediterranean peoples and the enslavement of the same to endless years of poverty renamed 'austerity'? The entirely moribund financial state of the Union? Or are they simply, mistakenly, conflating the EU with Europe and Europeans? (I love everything about the latter two).

 

You have to also wonder why they accuse the Leave campaign of peddling lies while simultaneously ignoring the elephant, rhino and hippo in the room. And we were told the British economy would be pushed to the brink of collapse if we voted to leave, it seems the opposite was true.

 

(* I also find it odd how the SNP, LibDems and Greens bemoan the results of the referendum, an example of proportional representation, whilst at the same time claiming that this self same system should be the chosen method by which the electorate choose their leaders, parties and government, rather than the first-past-the post-system. How do you answer that dichotomy one wonders?).

 

+1

 

Well said.

 

It's high time that the more emotive and less grown-up type of arguments, reasoning (if one can call it that) and throw-away semantic statistics were completely ignored in favour of what is actually happening. The semantics behind some of these arguments are incomprehensible as they ignore the true feeling of a majority of those who voted to leave, ans one should be very careful of aligning voters with the words and actions of the campaigns main antagonists who, on both sides, conducted themselves disgracefully.

 

We have voted to exit the EU, and in time I do believe that many who voted to remain will see why and come on side so that we have a truly United Kingdom again. It is a sad testament that many will swing across if the economic outlook continues to improve. That just goes to show how blinkered some are to the motivations of those like Martin Schultz and others of his type within the EU are, and to to those who perhaps voted based on purely economic criteria have done this nation and it's future a great disservice. The Schultz brigade are so detached from reality and indeed from the feelings of many of their own nations, that they will eventually suffer the fate of all such despots and tin hat dictators. True democracy has been hard-won in Europe and a majority are not about to let that be reversed.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Savhmr

[sportsbob]

Why don`t we just ignore Granett ? He keeps starting a new twist to his argument everytime he is shot down is there not a forum rule that could be twisted out of proportion to suit his style of thinking that we could use to get him banned