Starting a young lad

[Bettinsoli1]

I'm looking at getting my nine year old started. I have it down to the following combination

A semi auto in 12g of 20g with subsonic cartridges. Just wondering what guys think of either calibre

[Walker570]

Nine ,, hmmm. How big a lad is he? I think a 20 gauge ... sbs or o/u if he is a medium to small build, because it will balance better for him and will not be nose heavy. If he is a big strong nine year old then look around for a second hand 12 or 20 semi auto Remy 1100. If it has a 26 inch skeet barrel all the better because again it will not be nose heavy and the pattern will ensure he gets to see some clays powdered. I don't recommend starting kids on a 410 which is what some parents do. The 20 gauge will throw a very similar pattern to the 12 and with light loads will not recoil hard enough to put him off.

 

I often see lads and girls leaning back trying to support a gun which is too long and too heavy upfront and of course that position results in a) felt recoil in excess and b) lack of control of the gun resulting in misses and those you do not want at the start....they need to see those clays break and they will then be hooked.

[Stonepark]

Of the 2, 20b as lighter, and with 21g fibre clay loads, perfectly good to kill to 35 yards for clays and game.

[Exudate]

For a nine year old, recoil aside, one of the biggest challenges is getting a gun that is light enough and balanced just right so that they can physically handle it.

[Gordon R]

20 gauge. Unless he is massive, I think a 12 gauge would be to heavy for him.

[Exudate]

It's a common misconception that 20g guns are lighter than 12g. In a lot of cases, they weight about the same. The recoil will be less with a 20g (as long as you use the correct loads), but in most cases you'll still have an issue with the gun being too heavy.

[fuzzypigeon]

Or a single barrel 12 not an auto thou, will make him learn to not waste his shots!!

[TONY R]

Started all my three lads from your lads age with a hatsan semi auto 20ga, its got stock spacers and short pads that can get it right down in stock length, its gas auto very low on felt recoil, and its got a .635 bore which is back bored to the extreme for a 20 bore. Multi choke nice trigger pull thin pistol grip ideal for youngsters or adults alike.

Its been 100% reliable and with the longer pad on it i have now claimed it as my curent pigeon gun, in fact its the only gun i have used so far this season on waterfowl.

And if all thats not enough i think it cost 225 pounds brand new. They are just under 300 now. for the 12s.

If i had this time to do again like you, i would not have chosen anything different i regret nothing buying that hatsan its been all good to us.

[bruno22rf]

As TONY R said - I think they do a "youth" model 20g semi.

[dougall]

how big is he?my godson aged 9 would not be able to lift/handle either at this point...still on cut down 410.

[TONY R]

There is not 2lb in it with the escort semi in 20, the fact the stock shortens with just a screwdriver and goes very short kids can mount the gun right, the short barrel and fact its a single barrel and action frame well back make handling far eassier than on say an OU in 20 bore.

My Lads were always robust and out of them the eldest was the weakest at that age he moved from a vanguard .410 to the Escort with no issues, as i say between the old vanguard single.410 and the escort 20 i doubt there is 2lbs in it and light in the barrel area.

Im not on Hatsans payroll and i dont push them because i own them i would have another remy lt20 anyday to this thing. but they do offer a very good option for kids, and yet they will work into adulthood too.

[Wildfowler]

My 12 year old lad started with a bolt action 410 at about 7 and moved on to a 20g escort youth at 9 and it was still a bit too heavy for him then. Now at 12 he is swinging it nicely and out shooting me on occasions.

Like others have said, a 12 will likely be too heavy and at least with a semi auto the recoil is easy to handle.

Enjoy teaching him though! I often prefer watching my lads shooting to doing it myself now!

[Old farrier]

Hi

Sorry to disagree with many

Start on a 410 until he gets the feel for it then move on to a light load in a small caliber

Reasons for this are he'll be happy shooting anything why risk recoil and weight putting him off

Young lad shoots with us shot a adult course at the clay ground top gun 83 he had 45 and a 😊

Third time out with it offered him a few shots with the 20 halfway through he had 2 and went back to the 410 as it was lighter

He also demonstrates gun safety 🤗

A bit harder to teach a kid with a auto

Just make a few achievable targets

In fact shoot it yourself there fun

 

Anyway just my view on it

All the best

Of

[Wingman]

Sorry to add to this but I have just started my son who is 9 years of age also..

 

To kick things off I sent him on a "young guns" session at a local clay ground, this was great to give him a good grounding and also for a qualified instructor to see how he did. He is not a small boy for his age so he got on just fine with a light 20G and speaking to the instructor his advice was to avoid a .410 and go straight into a 20 or 28G. I think this session was invaluable as not only did it ensure that he was genuinely interested but also provided the benefit of professional advice on the best way forward.

 

So we have been only once since due to other commitments but he shot with a Webley and Scott 28G and shot pretty well. If his interest remains then I'll consider buying him his own gun but for now using the clubs guns works just fine for us.

 

Plus I agree with Old Farrier I dont think an Auto is the right choice for a young shooter for safety reasons. Most young shots want to handle the gun themselves quickly and a OU or SBS is much easier to manage from a safety perspective.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Wingman

[TONY R]

Sorry to add to this but I have just started my son who is 9 years of age also..

 

To kick things off I sent him on a "young guns" session at a local clay ground, this was great to give him a good grounding and also for a qualified instructor to see how he did. He is not a small boy for his age so he got on just fine with a light 20G and speaking to the instructor his advice was to avoid a .410 and go straight into a 20 or 28G. I think this session was invaluable as not only did it ensure that he was genuinely interested but also provided the benefit of professional advice on the best way forward.

 

So we have been only once since due to other commitments but he shot with a Webley and Scott 28G and shot pretty well. If his interest remains then I'll consider buying him his own gun but for now using the clubs guns works just fine for us.

 

Plus I agree with Old Farrier I dont think an Auto is the right choice for a young shooter for safety reasons. Most young shots want to handle the gun themselves quickly and a OU or SBS is much easier to manage from a safety perspective.

Well here i will add my thoughts observations in this.

I was brought up with Remington 1100s mostly with a few other old semi autos thrown in.

My first shot gun was not a semi auto however, it wad a webley bolt action .410.

It was ok but it was not a perfect shotgun by any means it handled life a plank was pretty front heavy i felt as a kid but it was what we had and its what i was given, not affluent times in those days.

Now once i got 11 or 12 i started using a browning A 5 16 bore and a remington 1100 skeet gun when i could get my hands on it.

I had used other guns side by sides hammer guns and OUs etc, but i always liked semi autos, the fact the barrel was always inline with the action was to my way of thinking a good thing it made for safe opperation in pigeon hides duck and goose blinds even walking round crossing fence lines ditches streams etc.

Now this safety aspect i see as a plus, yet many dont see it as such, the open broken ou or SxS is traditionaly the super safe gun traditionaly and when ever challenged there are the same reasons they are so so safe compared to semi autos pumps or even bolt actions.

I flat out dissagree with this attitude and stance.

Reasons why i dissagree, If Any person needs any one type of shotgun to be safe or not they are not being safe in the first place,

If proper safety is taught any action type will be just as safe as any other in any shooting sittuation.

Safe handling and opperation is the key to this.

 

And that said lets look at break action shotguns and inlines like semis pumps bolt action falling blocks etc.

 

ONE thing i can not take away from break actions is vissual in company confidence, people around shooters can see quite easily that when a break action gun id broken its not going to discharge, but in equal terms a pump can have its forearm back and be just as vissualy assuring as a break action , but our Britishness gets in the way and many flat out refuse to acept it over here.

Bolts and falling blocks are rare but do have clear vissual assurance bolt back underleaver down , etc but i agree not as obvious as the pumps forend back.

No semi autos they have little vissual assurance a fact clearly recognised by the use of breach flagsc on claygrounds and the like.

Now my take on safetey in the likes of clay grounds is to slieve the gun straight after firing, this way non can complain and its the responsible thing to do in my opinion in such company, and not just claygrounds but most places where others are around, its polite to do this but again not a safetey aspect as such a safe gun is a safe gun end of story action type plays no part.

 

Now moving on from what is fairly obvious but needed outlining.

Field opperation advantages and disadvantages, in this the SxS and OUs are easy to opperate if in a typical shooting situation you handle the gun safely open the gun load it close the gun and its ready to go, same with unloading pretty easy .

But if you look at say a semi auto its simple to load and some guns have features in their action which can vary the way you load them, but they are simple to opperate, and safe fast to make safe even faster than side by sides ous are.

Lets look at just two semi autos one modern MP153 one from the very dawn of semi autos the Browning original A5.

the Baikal Mp153 is incredibly fast, and in the case of the A5 its got one more opperation compared to the Baikal but at over a hundred years old it can be forgiven for this.

 

So an explanation and scenario by way of illustration.

Walking Rabbits up with springers with MP153 you come to a fence simply pull the bolt back grab the cartridge , the guns safe, cross fence flick the stop leaver bolt moved chambers a round feed cartridge straight in the mag at the same time. loaded.

OU gun needs opening both cartridges removed gun really needs shutting as awkward broken to cross fence then both rounds back in shut loaded.

Barrels moving about in all directions danger of barrels coming into contact with soil mud leaf mould whatever, just not as slick as the Baikal MP153.

SxS dont have quite as much gape as OUs but still not as fast simple safe as MP153.

Now the OLD A5 again basicaly the same but with that you need to flick the mag latch on pull the bolt back and grab the cartridge, then to reload you just rock it foreward and it feeds from the mag feed the round back in the mag ready to go.

Its that simple, and this is not just these two guns many autos have similat features bredas franchies other brownings winchesters etc.

Pumps can be just as fast latch off rack it back grab cartridge to reload just chamber round rack it home ready to go.

Gun always inline always clear of mud and pointing in a safe direction.

Those who use semis on a regular bassis will recognise these features only too well, and from a user safetey angle i can add more features which add to the semi autos safetey.

Hides any hides pigeon wildfowling etc, any bbreak open gun needs elivating when in a hide holding at a weird angle barrels drop barrels tangle in net touch bank get mud debris in muzles cartridges fall out on loading at these odd angles or drop in floor on reloading.

Then you notice your hide partener has just fled from the hide in terror at all this .

Ok i know im being flipant here with this one, you can stand up make life eassier ewtc, but come on we all know this is typical esspecialy if alone , and again with lets use the MP153 as an example barrel action long enough to be over the net bolt back grab shell leave hide take a lewak back in flick catch loaded put the one back in the mag,.

When shooting if you just feed the mag dont empty it to the last round you just feed them in guns inline over net safe no mud no net just simple easy safe gun to opperate.

So to children now, if they are very young i just used to feed a single round in at a time for them, your in an ideal possition feeding the gun looking over their shoulder offering them advice and when they fire guns safe, talk them through the shot drop a round in you can even press the bolt relese then they are away again. its far better to do this than gun down barrels in all directions puting a round in then click they nudged the selector accross when opperating the safetey so it dry fired on an open chamber.

So long as it might have been i have tried to touch on valid reasons i feel are relivant when chosing a semi auto or pump for use with youngsters or anybody for that matter, they are like any gun only as safe as the person shooting them, but when you look at the facts the traditional break actions are not quite as super safe as they first apear or are claimed to be, you cant rely on inherant design safety it comes down to YOU and YOU only.

Edited September 15, 2016 by TONY R

[Wingman]

Tony, very interesting read your points are all extremely valid. Just to be clear my post was just my view and I am not saying that its gospel. I still believe though that a OU or SxS is a better STARTING point for a junior only because it is easier for a young person to fully understand the safety aspects and take personal accountability for them which I think is an important part of safety training for any firearm and which I had drummed into me by the military for many years.

 

My comments are not based on the functional aspects of auto's vs other types although I do again believe that for a young child a break open gun is somewhat easier to manage. Like you I am an auto fan and use my collection of Auto-5's usually above my other guns and also like you started my shotgunning career with an auto a Remington 11-87 so definitely not biased towards OU's or SxS.

 

All children are different and as experienced shooters its our responsibility to ensure that we help the next generation share our love of the sport in a safe and responsible manner. So there probably isn't and never will be a one size fits all approach, whilst my son handles a little Yildiz 28 bore confidently some may be just as competent with an auto. For him though its got him going in an enjoyable and above all safe way.

 

I am sure others will chime in and sorry to the OP is it hijacks the threat but its relevant to the original question.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Wingman

[TONY R]

I dont nessasarily dissagree with youngsters using SxS OUs but just pointing out a few facts observation for the OP to concider in his gun choice it i felt needed airing here, i pointed out relentlessly in the above post no shotgun action type as inbuilt safetey its down to the shooter to be safe, And with novices its important they are taught safetey no matter what gun they use.

Once kids get past the first few shots outings etc, they start to want to do things go hunting, its here i found the little hatsan escort so valluable, its got so many aspects to it help kids, right down to the bolt release button being oposite side to the flying bolt it all helped i feel.

Way i did it was load and unload opperate bolt with dummy rounds watched everything they did stopped them explainded what they did wrong, and why. It was not long at all before they were safe enough to trust at a distance they all had watched and learned well before they went with their own guns.

[demonwolf444]

Get a cheap single barrel 12 bore. There are hundreds about. butcher it or get a gunsmith to butcher it so it fits him and balances for him as best as it can. Single barrel break actions are easy to teach safety stuff on. They are generally quite light - suggest using between 21 and 24 gram loads, light loads will help minimize the recoil. lack of chokes if going to give him a good big pattern that will help him connect with clays boost his confidence and get him hooked!..

 

When we used to go on my friends farm with the family rust bucket 410 age 13 or 14 we were aloud to go about on own within sight of the farmhouse we were always given a cartridge each, and had to go back to the farm if we wanted another one.

Edited September 15, 2016 by demonwolf444

[lksopener]

When I started out I used a single barrel 16 bore that was tight as anything choke wise. Probably x full.

 

As someone mentioned above when shooting the pigeons it made me really pick my shots. I was fortunate enough to be mentored by a lovely chap at a local clay ground now both long gone whilst my dad shot on the sporting.

 

Things to bear in mind however are that I was very tall for my age. My memories of transferring to a 12 gauge where a bruised shoulder! I soon got used to it as I grew but 50 sporting rounds were enough at 13 or so.

 

So I guess in answer to your original question it's a tough decision! In 12 gauge you can use very light shells such as 21 grams. In 20 gauge you can use 21 grams. In .410 you can use 19g.

 

So what's the difference? Weight maybe, which is negligible between 12/20. .410 over and unders can be lovely and light. They will teach you to be accurate and pick your shots as well. I'm a bit biased because I've recently got in to the .410 and it's my first choice out the cabinet!

 

I personally looking back would start on a .410 and see where that takes your lad. It won't beat him up, it will teach him to be damn accurate and he can always move up to something more appropriate as he ages, bear in mind a 12/20 that fits him now almost certainly will not when he's 16/17/18.

 

That's my thoughts but so many different options outlined above.

 

Main thing is to enjoy your shooting. It should be an enjoyable past time. I used to love the anticipation as a lad not quite knowing how the day was going to go.

 

Enjoy,

L

[Westley]

WHY, WHY, WHY, do we KEEP teaching youngsters that the semi auto shotgun is a dangerous tool that should be avoided at all costs Far better to teach them that ALL guns are perfectly safe UNTIL someone picks them up ! When did anyone witness an accidental discharge from a gun in a gunrack, it ALWAYS occurs when someone has hold of the gun. This is why a sound grounding in MUZZLE AWARENESS is VITAL. Before anyone tries to tell me that the break open shotgun is far safer, in over 50 years of shooting, which includes running a shooting ground, I have NEVER witnessed an accident involving a semi auto. I HAVE witnessed several involving break open guns though. In the past month alone I have had occasion to speak to 2 groups of what appeared to be 'Game' shooters, regarding their lack of safety and muzzle awareness. These incidents occurred at 2 separate grounds and by 2 separate groups of shooters and BOTH involved O/U guns. Thankfully, I am not opposed to speaking to anyone that I see, behaving in a manner, from which an accident could occur. May I suggest that you arrange a lesson with a suitable Instructor, who should be recommended by someone that has used him, and not the shooting ground, also consider getting the lad on a suitable young shots or something similar, day. Remember that any single barrel gun is likely to recoil worse than an auto or double barrel gun, and some semi auto's will not cycle light loads. Good luck to the Lad, but remember his first lessons can be the start or FINISH, of his shooting career. Just to finalise, the most recent incident involved an experienced shooter putting a hole through their gunslip and into the ground, whilst putting in their ..................SNAP CAPS ??

[Prospero]

Buy him an air rifle.

[Bettinsoli1]

Thanks for the feedback from everyone. My young lad head is at my shoulder and I'm 6ft in height. He has already shot a 223 out to 300 and has taken rabbits off quad stocks up to 100 yards. The issue I'm having is trying to find a balanced gun to suit him. Once I get him sorted there would be myself my dad and my son shooting. This would make a nice picture/memory that o look forward to getting framed

[Wildfowler]

I didn't think anyone under the age of 14 could use a section one other than on a home office approved range?

Correct me if I'm wrong!...

[super sharp shooter]

Have a look at the yildiz 20g junior. They sell different length of stock as the shooter grows so you won't have to buy different guns.

[Wingman]

+1 for the yildiz that's what my son uses.