Hull and No. 7s

[dodeer]

I had someone on a peg next to me in Bedford a few weeks back. He was shooting a MK38 trap gun with 36g 5's.

I was using 28g 6.5's. We shot Partridges that came over shelter belts and varied in height from 15-25 metres i guess. His birds were generally puff balled and looked unfit for consumption which is sad because it's the reason and justification for why we shoot

[washerboy]

i haven't used anything but 29g of size 6 for any game or pigeon shooting, been given a box of gamebore 5's but these will be used on crows when I head to Scotland.

[matone]

I had someone on a peg next to me in Bedford a few weeks back. He was shooting a MK38 trap gun with 36g 5's.

I was using 28g 6.5's. We shot Partridges that came over shelter belts and varied in height from 15-25 metres i guess. His birds were generally puff balled and looked unfit for consumption which is sad because it's the reason and justification for why we shoot

Sadly,birds are just animated clay targets to many of the newer generation ! Bet he didn`t even look at or for the birds he pillowcased either.

[EdSolomons]

Speed wise I believe the 28g 4s are faster than the original imperial but again I can get confirmation. Pretty sure when I was there last they said they measure about 2 meters then back calculate the speed? Means nothing to me.

 

Yes I am very much a fan of heavier loads and big shot however this isn't on what you'd call run of the mill stuff- i dare say not much inside 45 yards gets shot and and it stretches a long way at certain places.

If I did the more local stuff is be more than happy with an ounce of 5-6 shot and not feel I was under gunned.

[welshwarrior]

I load and occasionally shoot at some rather nice estates and shoots and in the booking contract it asks you to use fibre wads. Farm type shoots and some others don't care but on a lot you will find it's fibre only.

I'm normally only asked to load for clients on nicer estates especially double guns, or assisting overseas visitors for their shooting trip, they tend to stay away from the local 100 bird farm day.

 

Ed I know the sorts of shoots you mean but also feel you don't need 38-40g 4s on them I shoot Brigands again this year with 32g 5 and never once believed the cartridge made me miss it was me misreading line or lead.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Some very interesting points being made throughout this thread.

 

I shall continue with the 28g OR 30g 6s that have served me well, might use paper again.

[EdSolomons]

Depends very much on the drive and the birds on the day, also what you shoot at of course.

I'll be at brigands in January and will be on 4s for sure, load wise in all likelihood 34-36 and possibly some new test loads in 40g if done in time.

A good 4-5 in 32 will kill a long way with a bit of choke for sure, however the extreme days at Whitfield and the like it just isn't enough to work consistently in my eyes.

I was there earlier this year with a team of customers from Germany and a chap who had tagged on as a single gun, who was giving it the big one the night before as he always kills the highest stuff with 32g 6s... I was pegged next to him and bar a couple of low birds that he shouldn't have shot at on the first drive, I saw him being down 3 that I saw, none stone dead and he shot over a slab of shells.

A different argument I suppose but it depends what you pick to shoot, where you shoot, when you shoot (later season obviously take a bit more stopping) and various other factors.

I've built up my preferences over plenty of game shooting and infield instructing (around 50 days most seasons) but would never put a label on right or wrong shells as the variables above make it such a moveable target so to speak.

[welshwarrior]

Totally agree and my choice is 32g 5s through full and full, even at December high birds even on Tommys or Waterfall.

 

But see enough people in the field and on the shooting capable of missing with any cartridge gun combination you put into their hands.

[wymberley]

Speed wise I believe the 28g 4s are faster than the original imperial but again I can get confirmation. Pretty sure when I was there last they said they measure about 2 meters then back calculate the speed? Means nothing to me.

 

Yes I am very much a fan of heavier loads and big shot however this isn't on what you'd call run of the mill stuff- i dare say not much inside 45 yards gets shot and and it stretches a long way at certain places.

If I did the more local stuff is be more than happy with an ounce of 5-6 shot and not feel I was under gunned.

Wasn't far out, then.

[EdSolomons]

Absolutely right 42g in the wrong spot still won't hit!

[matone]

Having watched many of the finest shots in action at a variety of high shoots ,I`m sure that accuracy is far more important than cartridge every time !

I have seen some amazing birds pulled down with Impax & Grand Prix back in the 70`s ,when all this fancypants ammo had not been dreamt of.Undoubtedly well choked & patterning barrels are a requisite.

[White Rabbit]

My line of work involves 50-60 days a season at varying shoots including a lot of the premier high bird shoots. I believe 32gm 5's kills the highest pheasant we SHOULD be shooting at. 28gm 6's kills all your standard farm shoot/syndicate stuff all day long. Which in truth is what most of us shoot most days.

 

The whole high bird thing driven by the likes of Dave Carrie etc has now gone beyond silly.

 

If you were out rough shooting with a mate and he shot at a crosser 80yds away what would you think? What a tool?! But apparently if its up in the air its a tremendous bird well worth a barrel!

 

The worlds gone mad. Regarding the lack of 7's it is entirely fashion driven and no doubt given time things will go full circle. Certainly the guns I see launching 42gm 4's at out of range pheasants and go home with a flinch must decide there's another option!

 

WR.

[ElvisThePelvis]

Problem is plastics are not really allowed anymore. I honestly think they will become a thing of the past in the next few years.

On the clay ground who cares, but it wouldn't surprise me if SSSI or stewardship stops grants etc if wads are everywhere.

Let's hope so...

[ElvisThePelvis]

My line of work involves 50-60 days a season at varying shoots including a lot of the premier high bird shoots. I believe 32gm 5's kills the highest pheasant we SHOULD be shooting at. 28gm 6's kills all your standard farm shoot/syndicate stuff all day long. Which in truth is what most of us shoot most days.

The whole high bird thing driven by the likes of Dave Carrie etc has now gone beyond silly.

If you were out rough shooting with a mate and he shot at a crosser 80yds away what would you think? What a tool?! But apparently if its up in the air its a tremendous bird well worth a barrel!

The worlds gone mad. Regarding the lack of 7's it is entirely fashion driven and no doubt given time things will go full circle. Certainly the guns I see launching 42gm 4's at out of range pheasants and go home with a flinch must decide there's another option!

WR.

A great post in my view, pheasants that can't be consistently killed by 32g 5 (such as hull hpx) to me are out of range.

[matone]

My line of work involves 50-60 days a season at varying shoots including a lot of the premier high bird shoots. I believe 32gm 5's kills the highest pheasant we SHOULD be shooting at. 28gm 6's kills all your standard farm shoot/syndicate stuff all day long. Which in truth is what most of us shoot most days.

 

The whole high bird thing driven by the likes of Dave Carrie etc has now gone beyond silly.

 

If you were out rough shooting with a mate and he shot at a crosser 80yds away what would you think? What a tool?! But apparently if its up in the air its a tremendous bird well worth a barrel!

 

The worlds gone mad. Regarding the lack of 7's it is entirely fashion driven and no doubt given time things will go full circle. Certainly the guns I see launching 42gm 4's at out of range pheasants and go home with a flinch must decide there's another option!

 

WR.

 

Spot on !

[Salopian]

You don't see much on Youtube ,where they shoot 1193 shots for 82 birds on a single drive do you?

But to watch it is not good, sporting , or a pleasure.

[Stonepark]

Just basic and assuming gun/cartridges perform as expected by tables (which is not often) but....

 

 

28g of No 7 @ full choke at 40 yards has 234 pellets @1ftlb

 

32g of No6 @ full choke at 40 yards has 212 pellets @ 1.5ftlbs

 

32g of No 6 @ full choke at 50 yards has 148 pellets @1ftlb

 

32g of No5 @full choke at 50 yards has 121 pellets @ 1.5ftlbs

 

36g of no5 @full choke at 60 yards has 89 pellets @ 1 ftlb

 

50g of No5 @full choke at 60 yards has 124 pellets @1ftlb

 

28g of No4 @full choke at 40 yards has 116 pellets @ 2.85ftlbs

 

28g of No4 @full choke at 50 yards has 81 pellets @ 2.1ftlbs

 

28g of No4 @full choke at 60 yards has 53 pellets @ 1.5ftlbs

 

 

For me personally, I like 150 pellets in 30 inch pattern for duck/pheasants but I know others have cited 90 to 120 pellets (Tom Roster, Eley etc).

 

 

 

Pellets hitting something vital kills, and you need enough pellets striking to on average to get this and what follows is very rough............

 

If you are shooting 28g of No4 at 50 yards , you have an average of 3 pellets striking the entire bird, if you shoot 32g no6 you have an average of 5 pellets striking the entire bird.

 

Which is more likely to hit something immediately vital, assuming only 50% of bird is vital?

 

You are now down to 1.5 pellets on average for No4, however that is an average and under a normal distribution curve that means roughly , 15% of the time you are hitting the bird and not hitting anything vital (wounding) and 70% of the time you are hitting vitals with 1 pellet and 15% of the time hitting vitals with 2 pellets. - Result is only 85% of dead birds per 100 shots fired (even if you are perfectly on target each time)

 

Compare to the no6, where you are wounding 0.1% of the time and hitting vital with at least 1 pellet 15.9% and, 2 pellets 68% of the time 3 or more multiple times 16% of the time. - Result is 99.9% of dead birds per 100 shots if you are on target each time.

 

And remember this is assuming everything else (choke, cartridge quality, etc etc ) is perfect

Edited December 27, 2016 by Stonepark

[JohnfromUK]

Not to suggest Stonepark's figures are wrong - but I suggest the basic figures for pellet count come from pattern plate values.

 

In fact the pattern is a 'sausage' shape, not a flat disc shape, so all of the above is very much an approximation. This complicates and (at least partially) invalidates steady pattern plate pellet counts for dynamic moving target situations. IF the pattern plate was moving at say 40 m.p.h., the results would be different. Burrard did some experiments firing at a moving pattern plate to determine the shot pattern length.

Much study work was done in times gone by - and carefully written up. One such example is Payne Galwey's "High Pheasants in Theory and Practice". Repro copies are widely available.

[matone]

The knowledge is all there to be mined,just few people bother to read it before they make uninformed choices !!!!!

[wymberley]

Just basic and assuming gun/cartridges perform as expected by tables (which is not often) but....

 

 

28g of No 7 @ full choke at 40 yards has 234 pellets @1ftlb 138

 

32g of No6 @ full choke at 40 yards has 212 pellets @ 1.5ftlbs 125

 

32g of No 6 @ full choke at 50 yards has 148 pellets @1ftlb 78

 

32g of No5 @full choke at 50 yards has 121 pellets @ 1.5ftlbs 64

 

36g of no5 @full choke at 60 yards has 89 pellets @ 1 ftlb all

 

50g of No5 @full choke at 60 yards has 124 pellets @1ftlb all

 

28g of No4 @full choke at 40 yards has 116 pellets @ 2.85ftlbs 69

 

28g of No4 @full choke at 50 yards has 81 pellets @ 2.1ftlbs 44

 

28g of No4 @full choke at 60 yards has 53 pellets @ 1.5ftlbs all

 

 

For me personally, I like 150 pellets in 30 inch pattern for duck/pheasants but I know others have cited 90 to 120 pellets (Tom Roster, Eley etc).

 

 

 

Pellets hitting something vital kills, and you need enough pellets striking to on average to get this and what follows is very rough............

 

If you are shooting 28g of No4 at 50 yards , you have an average of 3 pellets striking the entire bird, if you shoot 32g no6 you have an average of 5 pellets striking the entire bird.

 

Which is more likely to hit something immediately vital, assuming only 50% of bird is vital?

 

You are now down to 1.5 pellets on average for No4, however that is an average and under a normal distribution curve that means roughly , 15% of the time you are hitting the bird and not hitting anything vital (wounding) and 70% of the time you are hitting vitals with 1 pellet and 15% of the time hitting vitals with 2 pellets. - Result is only 85% of dead birds per 100 shots fired (even if you are perfectly on target each time)

 

Compare to the no6, where you are wounding 0.1% of the time and hitting vital with at least 1 pellet 15.9% and, 2 pellets 68% of the time 3 or more multiple times 16% of the time. - Result is 99.9% of dead birds per 100 shots if you are on target each time.

 

And remember this is assuming everything else (choke, cartridge quality, etc etc ) is perfect

Phew, some post!

 

The thing is, though, if one was to pick those loads/chokes and decide that the distances given were deemed one's maximum range, then only the number of pellets highlighted would be effective. Where 'all' is given, this reflects that the study from which the figures are extracted did not consider the distance/percentages worthy of note and as such, the pellets in question will be scattered throughout the 30" circle. Whether or not they're effective depends upon the size of the quarry and the number of pellets/energy required to kill cleanly.

Edited December 27, 2016 by wymberley

[Walker570]

I get comments about shooting 410s at pheasants...oh you must(crazy computer)#rick a lot, etc. I just wonder how many of those 50 60 70yrd birds get pricked and not picked ? At that height they are going to cruise way back behind any pickers up and die a slow death.

Last week a beater walked up to me and asked if a crossing pheasant ..I was on the end of the line ... was not on. I said it was probably a 45yrd shot and I could not be certain of putting it down so I didn't shoot. It was the only bird to come my way on that drive.

This season so far I've slipped a bit to 2.9 to 1.(I pick cartridges and record hits) This is not because I am some super dooper shot but because I TRY to take only birds at a range I feel I can kill cleanly without blowing them to pieces.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Walker570

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I get comments about shooting 410s at pheasants...oh you must(crazy computer)#rick a lot, etc. I just wonder how many of those 50 60 70yrd birds get pricked and not picked ? At that height they are going to cruise way back behind any pickers up and die a slow death.

Last week a beater walked up to me and asked if a crossing pheasant ..I was on the end of the line ... was not on. I said it was probably a 45yrd shot and I could not be certain of putting it down so I didn't shoot. It was the only bird to come my way on that drive.

This season so far I've slipped a bit to 2.9 to 1.(I pick cartridges and record hits) This is not because I am some super dooper shot but because I TRY to take only birds at a range I feel I can kill cleanly without blowing them to pieces.

 

Sound advice

[wymberley]

Not to suggest Stonepark's figures are wrong - but I suggest the basic figures for pellet count come from pattern plate values.

 

In fact the pattern is a 'sausage' shape, not a flat disc shape, so all of the above is very much an approximation. This complicates and (at least partially) invalidates steady pattern plate pellet counts for dynamic moving target situations. IF the pattern plate was moving at say 40 m.p.h., the results would be different. Burrard did some experiments firing at a moving pattern plate to determine the shot pattern length.

Much study work was done in times gone by - and carefully written up. One such example is Payne Galwey's "High Pheasants in Theory and Practice". Repro copies are widely available.

True enough, but it does give a fair indication - apart from other little titbits it shows up which you might not otherwise have realised what were going on. Not all doom and gloom, however, far more recent studies than those referred to indicate that a bird would have flown just 7" at a speed of 40 mph when the main bulk of the pattern - arguably the effective part - passed through it when fired from a range of 40 metres.

[shaun4860]

What a fascinating thread this is

 

[Walker570]

There are so many variables with a live bird against shooting clays. They can swerve off line without warning(pigeons notoriously so), curling birds are notoriously difficult to judge. We can only make a judgement at the split second we decide to shoot or not shoot. I have sometimes dropped a bird stone dead when I really thought I was way off as I squeezed the trigger, only to realise the shot has actually dropped into the bird on the strong wind and had I been on the bird I would have actually missed. No two shots are the same with live birds. There again, I have seen clays rise and fall suddenly with a gust of wind and almost bounce in the strong breeze, like a ducky stone on water.

It is a subject that could be debated and argued about for a lifetime.