trump puts his pen where his mouth is

[Twistedsanity]

Oh dear, this is as devisive as Maggie t was. personally I believe that with today's modern science and tech if there was any indisputable proof that climate change was indeed man made it would be here and this discussion wouldn't even be happening.There is no Indesputable evidence though all we have are opinions and predictive "models" by people who are unable to accurately predict the weather next Wednesday. I am cursed with a good memory and recall only to well how we were told.of the impending ice age in the 80's and every October of the impending blizzards that will devastate the country. the only definitive proof I have seen is that the climate is actually changing which historicaly it has always done, I wonder what caused the ice age and every climatic event since? Because one thing is certain it wasn't burning fossil fuels was it! it's a bit like Brexit in that we all have our opinions and beliefs about it but until it happens either for better or for worse we are just clutching at straws and attempting to force our opinions on others as facts.

Either the world will end in a catastrophic climatic.event or the entire debacle will be swept under the carpet as is the English way(like the term global warming and the ice age predicted in the 80's) and replaced by another different sensationalist scare story.

[Yellow Bear]

It remains a fact that as soon as David Bellamy changed his mind and said man made climate change was a con he was immediately sidelined and blocked by the pc press. This convinces me that there is truth in the idea that it is a con to produce "jobs for the boys". In many ways we are at the mercy of the www and science that can measure things in a way we could not envisage even 20 years ago and spread this information widely - these conditions have probably been occurring for millennia but we could not measure them so we were none the wiser .

[keg]

Dinosaurs have nothing to do with global warming. Its believed the earth was struck by a meteorite that caused their extinction.

Smoking made the Dinosaurs extinct..... Proof

[MrM]

 

You really think that by banning cfc's, a hole the size of the usa miraculously repaired itself, you don't have any doubt whatsoever, and you don't think that it may have been part of natures cycle all along.

 

I think you will find that most scientist attribute the shrinking of the Ozone layer to the control of CFCs.

 

To quote from Live Science.

 

"More than 30 years after scientists first spotted a hole in the atmosphere's protective ozone layer over the South Pole, they are seeing the "first fingerprints of healing," researchers reported today (June 30).

 

Measurements of the ozone hole taken in September revealed the breach has shrunk by more than 1.5 million square miles (4 million square kilometers) — about half the area of the contiguous United States — since 2000.

The researchers attributed the ozone's recovery to the continuing decline of atmospheric chlorine originating from chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs). These chemical compounds, once commonly used in aerosols, dry cleaning and refrigerators, were banned when nations around the world signed the Montreal Protocol in 1987 in an effort to repair the ozone hole."

 

Perhaps you could show us the study on which you are basing your counter argument, in that nature healed it itself?

 

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by MrM

[Rewulf]

It remains a fact that as soon as David Bellamy changed his mind and said man made climate change was a con he was immediately sidelined and blocked by the pc press. This convinces me that there is truth in the idea that it is a con to produce "jobs for the boys". In many ways we are at the mercy of the www and science that can measure things in a way we could not envisage even 20 years ago and spread this information widely - these conditions have probably been occurring for millennia but we could not measure them so we were none the wiser .

 

Very true, and hes not the only naturalist to get the same treatment.

You would think a lively debate, with constructive counter arguments amongst the scientific community, would benefit the whole question of climate change?

Sadly, you get rabid, dogmatic blackballing and name calling from the 'climate change experts' and keyboard warriors, who will not entertain anything other than the 'fact' that man is responsible for everything from freak weather to famine.

Conveniently ignoring the FACT that such things have happened since there was a climate!

Can you see the similarities between our present political situation, and the climate change argument ?

Where ' deniers' are ostracised and called idiots, like Brexiters or Trump supporters are referred to as uneducated, uninformed ?

 

No one is saying that climate doesnt change, history tells us it does, at one time the middle east was far greener and cooler than what it is today, the dead sea and galilee were just one big sea, some of the most advanced civilisations grew from this rich verdant area.

Those civilisations died and moved on when the land warmed up and became unfarmable, and this happened without a single coal fired power station.

 

20 years ago, we were told that the sea levels would rise, and half the worlds land mass would be gone, a catastrophic event, less than 50 years hence.

An inconvenient truth?

So tell me, how high has the sea level risen ?

[old man]

"climate hoax fanatics"

So what do YOU think is causing global warming? its as plain as the nose on your face that fossil fuels are suffocating the world we live in.

If we all dont do something pretty damned quick our grandchildren will be living in a hell of our making.

IMHO,

 

The world never stands still or it dies?

 

Volcanoes never stop spouting?

 

Whatever ways we cripple ourselves in the energy production sector, others as mentioned will not stop?

How do you tell an emerging economy of little natural rescource, " Hey up don't' burn coal?"

[Vince Green]

Then there was the 'Climategate' controversy a few years back when scientists were shown by their own emails to be faking data. Nothing happened as far as I know.

 

Despite hard evidence in the form of emails the Universities investigated themselves and everybody was exonerated. No surprise there.

 

The reports that used the dodgy data still forms the backbone of the climate change argument.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Vince Green

[BrowningB525]

Then there was the 'Climategate' controversy a few years back when scientists were shown by their own emails to be faking data. Nothing happened as far as I know.

 

Despite hard evidence in the form of emails the Universities investigated themselves and everybody was exonerated. No surprise there.

 

The reports that used the dodgy data still forms the backbone of the climate change argument.

I know it's Wikipedia, but this seems to explain the leak.

 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy

[wandringstar]

vostok ice samples don't lie

[scotslad]

Like many things, there far too complicated to really cover on here and esp when folks beliefs are pretty deep rooted.

 

Yes modern man (paticulary western man) has ruined almost every ecosystem he has encountered so far on earth and taught his bad habits to the natives.

Yes the climate is changing, is it man made? i have no idea but a great many scientists have got very rich on it and a lot more have jumped on the coat tails for other random experiments which would otherwise never have recieved funding without shoe horning climate change/glabal warming into the title.

 

As someone said earlier even with all the modern computers and satelites we can still hardly predict the weather next week. Dunno how many times i've prepared for artic weather this winter and it is just a normal winters day, and shock horror u do tend to get more artic weather in winter time.

There is just so so many varibles and even if the whole workd stopped producing CO2 tommorrw u'd never know if things would reverse or if things would off reversed anyway

 

Wether or not the whole global warming thing is a big con or not the 1 thing that IS a big con is the whole green energy sector, subsidies and grants/rules that surround it.

I think its brilliant on small scales for houses, farm businesses etc but for the naional grid it's just not feasable as u still need a big power station ready to take up the slack so running sub optimally

 

To me it seems hard to justify shipping coal in from poland/russia, esp from a carbon footprint perspective, but even this global market we now live in things seem to be shipped back and forth all the time (a local seafood factory was flying its shrimps to Thailand to be peeled before shpping them back, just mental)

And yet there about to hammer desiel car owners??

 

 

Local to me they have erected literally hundereds of windmills (can probably see the edges of farms totally 400 odd turbines from the hill above my house, and i don't even mind the look of them) there are a massive white elephant like most green schemes for generating electiricity and if it wasn't for the massive subsidies would never be vaiable.

Most round me have prematurely felled forests (uses a lot of desiel to fell and haul the timber) have carted in thousands and thousands of tonnes of hardcore for roads etc, plus concrete for founds, hauled all the turbines in (mainly fabricated abroad, so no jobs and big carbon footprint).esp as most in more remote areas with bad access

The carbon footprint will be horrendous for them and all to be ripped down in 25 yrs time and ground reinstated.

I doubt most will recover the carbon footprint used to make and erect/dismantle them in there lifetimes

 

Even ur PV roof panels are quite polluing to make and dispose off, and in most cases create power when most folk don't need it.

 

Far more should be made of hydro or tidal power as it is realible if the technology was available to harness it

 

Also got a local boimass burning power station when it was originally built it was for all the waste wood out of local sawmills and all the waste of the forrest floor after felling the trees (surprising ammount of timber left behind) but the massive labour/machine costs of digging stumps out and brash matts it was just a joke. Anyone whos worked in scottish forestry/soils (seemingly reasonbly succesful on drier soils/climate) could of told them that thou

that station now takes hundreds of HGV's of decent timber every day, so much so that local independent sawmills can struggle to buy timber.

A few fields of willow boimass about 30m from the station was hauled 70miles away to dry out. Just madnesses

 

Even the only good/clever fact about the power station was an after thought, supplying the waste heat to heat the neighboring sawmills drying kilns, both sawmill and station where there for years before anyone thought of doing it.and despite the fact the power stations they modeled it from scandinivia are nromally built beside a town/hospital etc to provide free communal heating for the area with the waste heat

 

I think we do need to look after the planet better but most of these green energy schemes are just a white wash or a scam that the true cost is hidden and its only massive subsidies keeping it vaible. And a lot of hidden truths and whitewashed facts to keep the lies going

[wandringstar]

To me, I couldn't separate the green movement, and the global warming movement, I think they are intrinsically linked, three categories of people are immersed in it, in my view,

 

1. the twisted weirdy beard who hates capitalism and sees doom everywhere.

 

2. the spiv, who knows full well its baloney, but goes along with it for the dough.

 

3. The gullible, who suffer it, yet go along with it, this is its core support and is why it thrives.

 

 

 

 

I wish I could have a crack at no. 2, I would go along with it for a pot of gold all day long.

Edited March 29, 2017 by wandringstar

[keg]

Tidal is the answer.

[wandringstar]

yeah, tidal power, it never stops moving, harness that and forget about solar in the polar.

[general grievous]

Wow! I'm going to show this lot to 9Sc1 tomorrow morning, they'll be falling off their chairs!

 

Fortunately, the future of the planet is in the hands of intelligent young people who know "How Science Works " and can gather data, understand reliability and bias and evaluate evidence.

 

Be nice to them and look after their planet because in 10 or 20 years time they will be the ones looking after you, protecting you, keeping you well, producing your food and mending the things you break and don't understand how to mend yourself.

 

Donald Trump will be dead.

[wandringstar]

Wow! I'm going to show this lot to 9Sc1 tomorrow morning, they'll be falling off their chairs!

 

Fortunately, the future of the planet is in the hands of intelligent young people who know "How Science Works " and can gather data, understand reliability and bias and evaluate evidence.

 

Be nice to them and look after their planet because in 10 or 20 years time they will be the ones looking after you, protecting you, keeping you well, producing your food and mending the things you break and don't understand how to mend yourself.

 

Donald Trump will be dead.

 

 

ok, will do

[Yellow Bear]

Sadly "9Sc1" have yet to reach the age where they question "scientific data" they are fed by vested interest.

[matone]

Scotslad`s description if the whole charade could not be more accurate !

[general grievous]

Sadly "9Sc1" have yet to reach the age where they question "scientific data" they are fed by vested interest.

[general grievous]

They are 13 or 14 years old, scarily clever and question everything.

[Westward]

Yes the earth goes through cycles, these cycles can take thousands of years to alter the earths average temperature by several degrees, the cycle we are going through now is man made, it started in the late 1800 when millions of tons of coal was being burnt un efficiently, as the efficiency of coal burning rose so did the rise of third world countries who also started burning millions of tons of coal and oil. Why was the Black Country so named, because everywhere was black through the un-efficient burning of coal. The rise in average temperatures is out of control, the sort of temperatures that took thousands of years to rise to will be reached in a couple of hundred years. Thats global warming

We in this country brought in laws to stop the black smoke that was pouring out of our factory's and our homes, When you consider how much coal and oil the likes of China and India burn now if the so called civilised world dont do something pretty drastic we our grandchildren will feel the consequences.

I'm afraid you've bought in to the alarmist propaganda from the likes of Al Gore peck. He of course has made billions from the carbon credits scam!

 

Try this: How exactly do you think it was possible for the Vikings to set up a farming colony on Greenland around a thousand years ago? Answer: The climate then was far warmer then than the worst predictions of the GW alarmist brigade for the next hundred years but there were no mass extinctions or mass starvation. People suffered much more a few hundred years later in the mini ice age. (Look it up, you might learn something)

 

Each millenium (1,000 years) for the last 10 has been cooler than the one before. We are on the downward slope of the inter-glacial period following the last ice age. The current warming cycle is comparatively short term and has nothing to do with carbon dioxide which isn't even a particular strong greenhouse gas. By volume, there's about 20 times as much water vapour in the atmosphere than CO2 and water vapour is about 10 times stronger as a greenhouse gas. Nevertheless, the next ice age is coming because the climate is always changing; always has, always will.

[wandringstar]

peck isn't playing anymore with idiots, he said.

[general grievous]

I'm afraid you've bought in to the alarmist propaganda from the likes of Al Gore peck. He of course has made billions from the carbon credits scam!

 

Try this: How exactly do you think it was possible for the Vikings to set up a farming colony on Greenland around a thousand years ago? Answer: The climate then was far warmer then than the worst predictions of the GW alarmist brigade for the next hundred years but there were no mass extinctions or mass starvation. People suffered much more a few hundred years later in the mini ice age. (Look it up, you might learn something)

 

Each millenium (1,000 years) for the last 10 has been cooler than the one before. We are on the downward slope of the inter-glacial period following the last ice age. The current warming cycle is comparatively short term and has nothing to do with carbon dioxide which isn't even a particular strong greenhouse gas. By volume, there's about 20 times as much water vapour in the atmosphere than CO2 and water vapour is about 10 times stronger as a greenhouse gas. Nevertheless, the next ice age is coming because the climate is always changing; always has, always will.

[Guest cookoff013]

The Romans should have put solar panels up instead of Jesus.

[BrowningB525]

I'm just adding a few points to your post.

 

Like many things, there far too complicated to really cover on here and esp when folks beliefs are pretty deep rooted.

 

Yes modern man (paticulary western man) has ruined almost every ecosystem he has encountered so far on earth and taught his bad habits to the natives.

 

I agree

 

Yes the climate is changing, is it man made? i have no idea but a great many scientists have got very rich on it and a lot more have jumped on the coat tails for other random experiments which would otherwise never have recieved funding without shoe horning climate change/glabal warming into the title.

 

Scientists, getting rich?

 

As someone said earlier even with all the modern computers and satelites we can still hardly predict the weather next week. Dunno how many times i've prepared for artic weather this winter and it is just a normal winters day, and shock horror u do tend to get more artic weather in winter time.

There is just so so many varibles and even if the whole workd stopped producing CO2 tommorrw u'd never know if things would reverse or if things would off reversed anyway

 

Climate change is more than weather.

 

Wether or not the whole global warming thing is a big con or not the 1 thing that IS a big con is the whole green energy sector, subsidies and grants/rules that surround it.

I think its brilliant on small scales for houses, farm businesses etc but for the naional grid it's just not feasable as u still need a big power station ready to take up the slack so running sub optimally

 

Demand swings on a daily basis anyway, so there is always additional supply available. Every MWh generated by renewbles is one less by imported coal/gas. That said, I would prefer we made our own gas (fracking)

 

To me it seems hard to justify shipping coal in from poland/russia, esp from a carbon footprint perspective, but even this global market we now live in things seem to be shipped back and forth all the time (a local seafood factory was flying its shrimps to Thailand to be peeled before shpping them back, just mental)

And yet there about to hammer desiel car owners??

 

Diesel cars cause pollution in cities. Shipping is less of a local problem. I agree, it is utter madness though.

 

Local to me they have erected literally hundereds of windmills (can probably see the edges of farms totally 400 odd turbines from the hill above my house, and i don't even mind the look of them) there are a massive white elephant like most green schemes for generating electiricity and if it wasn't for the massive subsidies would never be vaiable.

Most round me have prematurely felled forests (uses a lot of desiel to fell and haul the timber) usually in areas where the trees will be logged anyway have carted in thousands and thousands of tonnes of hardcore for roads etc won from on site borrow pits where possible, plus concrete for founds, hauled all the turbines in (mainly fabricated abroad, so no jobs and big carbon footprint).esp as most in more remote areas with bad access The turbines still need maintaining

The carbon footprint will be horrendous for them and all to be ripped down in 25 yrs time and ground reinstated.

I doubt most will recover the carbon footprint used to make and erect/dismantle them in there lifetimes

 

The carbon footprint is repaid in a matter of months, the turbines have a life of ~20-25 years. Dismantling isn't particularly energy intensive. All the metal can be re melted for something else. The blades, less so.

 

Even ur PV roof panels are quite polluing to make and dispose off, and in most cases create power when most folk don't need it.

 

Houses may not need PV power in the day (people at work etc) but the grid does.

 

Far more should be made of hydro or tidal power as it is realible if the technology was available to harness it

 

Hydro is pretty mature, expensive to construct and is difficult to secure sites with sufficient head/flow. Tidal, not so much. They are trying though. Tidal is highly predictable, but not 24/7.

 

Also got a local boimass burning power station when it was originally built it was for all the waste wood out of local sawmills and all the waste of the forrest floor after felling the trees (surprising ammount of timber left behind) but the massive labour/machine costs of digging stumps out and brash matts it was just a joke. Anyone whos worked in scottish forestry/soils (seemingly reasonbly succesful on drier soils/climate) could of told them that thou

that station now takes hundreds of HGV's of decent timber every day, so much so that local independent sawmills can struggle to buy timber.

A few fields of willow boimass about 30m from the station was hauled 70miles away to dry out. Just madnesses

 

I agree with you there. Biomass is dubious, to say the least.

 

Even the only good/clever fact about the power station was an after thought, supplying the waste heat to heat the neighboring sawmills drying kilns, both sawmill and station where there for years before anyone thought of doing it.and despite the fact the power stations they modeled it from scandinivia are nromally built beside a town/hospital etc to provide free communal heating for the area with the waste heat

 

We are missing a trick with this in the UK.

 

I think we do need to look after the planet better Correct but most of these green energy schemes are just a white wash or a scam that the true cost is hidden and its only massive subsidies keeping it vaible. And a lot of hidden truths and whitewashed facts to keep the lies going Apart from biomass, you are wrong here. The problem is that biomass mimics business as usual with regard to operating power stations. This is why it's so popular. I think that the hype around hydrogen as an energy vector is the same. The problem is that they become a distraction.

 

 

[general grievous]

You sounded so good until the bit about the Vikings! Didn't the planet tilt in the last millennium ? (That's 1,000 years)

 

What's a "particularly strong greenhouse gas"? I'll ask the kids tomorrow.

 

I'm good for another 10 minutes then I'm going to bed so if there's any more pseudo science you heard down the pub that you want me to put to my teenagers to clarify for you then let me know