Shot range

[6.5x55SE]

25 minutes ago, motty said:

But all things are most likely not equal.

Motty I've been trying to say that but seems to fall deaf on some ears 

[6.5x55SE]

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

Well I was hoping someone might be able to add an extra layer of understanding or a better theory as to why a .410 doesn't travel as far as a 20b all else being equal .

Instead of trying to devalue the findings jd and myself have found. 

I was hoping neutron would chip in ? 

 

Neutron 

You have been given plenty of good advice/reasoning but for some reason won't take it on board 

[Ultrastu]

2 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

I'm my opinion Yes as to start with you are firing two totally different size Projectiles .

What i can say for sure is using a eg 100 gr projectile at given FPS then a 120 gr projectile at the same FPS from same rifle the heavier projectile with print higher at say 100yrd  !!!!!!

Personally I'd say Lancer425 is on the right track and could explain the reasoning far far better than myself because as yourself along with others I'm not good at explaining things/Myself well  Truthfully lack of education when younger 

The advice you've been giving maybe relevant for rifles and single projectiles but has zero relation to a shot gun  so I ignored it as irrelevant. Sorry .

 

Correct there are differences between the 2 carts in weight and size of bore and the pressures behind the driven shot .possibly the wad and the choke too.

It's these differences id like to understand as to why they make a massive difference to the max  range of the shot.

 

[Saltings]

have you used a chronograph to verified velocities between loads or check  lead load/junk metal as a lot are using  junk metal as cheaper and similar to steel slows down faster than  hardened/chilled lead 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Saltings

[motty]

I have already suggested measuring both the pellets and velocities of both loads. Until this is established, I see no point in continuing with the guesswork.

[lancer425]

11 hours ago, motty said:

But all things are most likely not equal.

This is what i think, dealing with ammo with some differences. Fibre wads i guess no chronograph readings taken so could be something .·as basic as FPS  variation without taking into account anything else.

[6.5x55SE]

17 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

This is what i think, dealing with ammo with some differences. Fibre wads i guess no chronograph readings taken so could be something .·as basic as FPS  variation without taking into account anything else.

Yes along with Starting point of Firing - Angel of Firing etc which all boils down to " Nothing being equal " which the OP has been explained to time and time again but for some reason won't listen 

No formula - mathematical equations will give him the answer it's just basic common sense eg my 18 grm of 6's from my .410 only put X number of shot on a 6ft board and my 28 grm of 6's from my 20 ga put more !!!!!!! Why !!!!!

Nothing is Equal 

[lancer425]

15 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Yes along with Starting point of Firing - Angel of Firing etc which all boils down to " Nothing being equal " which the OP has been explained to time and time again but for some reason won't listen 

No formula - mathematical equations will give him the answer it's just basic common sense eg my 18 grm of 6's from my .410 only put X number of shot on a 6ft board and my 28 grm of 6's from my 20 ga put more !!!!!!! Why !!!!!

Nothing is Equal 

Agree pretty basic stuff if you think about it.

[welshwarrior]

Until you confirm you are comparing apple with apples this pointless.  

Even pellets the same size but different densities will effect the results.   

Same types of wads etc  

Gusting winds so must be same still conditions.  

Velocities need to be the same and measured.  

And after you've done all that I still think it's pointless as your pellets still go further than you can hit something  so what's it for???

[walshie]

11 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

The advice you've been giving maybe relevant for rifles and single projectiles but has zero relation to a shot gun  so I ignored it as irrelevant. Sorry .

 

Correct there are differences between the 2 carts in weight and size of bore and the pressures behind the driven shot .possibly the wad and the choke too.

It's these differences id like to understand as to why they make a massive difference to the max  range of the shot.

 

Ignored as irrelevant. Apart from being plain rude, how do you know it's irrelevant if you don't know the answer yourself?

[6.5x55SE]

2 hours ago, walshie said:

Ignored as irrelevant. Apart from being plain rude, how do you know it's irrelevant if you don't know the answer yourself?

Thank you 

 

[Ultrastu]

4 hours ago, welshwarrior said:

Until you confirm you are comparing apple with apples this pointless.  

Even pellets the same size but different densities will effect the results.   

Same types of wads etc  

Gusting winds so must be same still conditions.  

Velocities need to be the same and measured.  

And after you've done all that I still think it's pointless as your pellets still go further than you can hit something  so what's it for???

It's so you know the maximum range your gun will fire (do you know yours ?) 

So you can work out safe arcs of fire on a new permission.You know its illegal to drop shot on someone's house or head on a road ? Or even beyond your boundary into another field u dont have permission on .

So since,  of the 2 different .410 s my mate and I shoot and the 3 different 20 bores we shoot .all basically have the same range with a variety of carts its safe to say the 410 s travel around 200 yds and the 20 s travel around 250 .

We can shoot a few  certain  fields with the .410 s and not the 20 s cos there are roads 250 yds from the hide position .

I haven't chronoed the guns .as I sold my chrono last year. It's also pretty  difficult to get a reliable reading (having tried in the past .) 

And any ballistic program basically shows that a small (150 fps ) difference between muzzle velocities make virtually no difference to maximum fall out range .So I won't bother to chrono the guns and different carts .And rely on printed info as being close enough . 

The weight of the shot my be a touch different from one brand to another (all being say English no6 ) 

But I seriously doubt this would make any difference at all .

So this leaves wads .And the average  bc of the pellets after they have been shot due to any deformation taken place in the gun .

I appreciate  the input and dont whish to appear  rude ..

But I dont know for sure and thought I would ask pw. 

 

But we are talking shot guns and cartridges and not rifles and bullets there isn't a lot of overlap in and internal  external   and terminal ballistics of the 2 .

Thanks .Stu 

 

[Penelope]

On 1/14/2018 at 08:34, 6.5x55SE said:

Really. Well Attenborough studied Wildlife and gave the answers NOT me.

Anyway how come other Migratory Birds don't fly in a V !!!!!! 

I've never seen a V of Swallows Starlings Pigeons etc and those can fly at High altitude and very long distance  

It's all about lift, each bird gains lift from the one infront, thus exerting less energy.

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

It's so you know the maximum range your gun will fire (do you know yours ?) 

So you can work out safe arcs of fire on a new permission.You know its illegal to drop shot on someone's house or head on a road ? Or even beyond your boundary into another field u dont have permission on .

 

With respect Ultrastu, you really need to be thinking about adding a good lump of range on top of whatever you have, if you have houses and roads that close, or just dont shoot in those directions.
Also without a chrono that can accurately measure your MV ,the whole issue is pointless.
If all you want is safe ranges, take it at 325 yards, thus allowing for some tail wind.

[welshwarrior]

32 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

It's so you know the maximum range your gun will fire (do you know yours ?) 

So you can work out safe arcs of fire on a new permission.You know its illegal to drop shot on someone's house or head on a road ? Or even beyond your boundary into another field u dont have permission on .

So since,  of the 2 different .410 s my mate and I shoot and the 3 different 20 bores we shoot .all basically have the same range with a variety of carts its safe to say the 410 s travel around 200 yds and the 20 s travel around 250 .

We can shoot a few  certain  fields with the .410 s and not the 20 s cos there are roads 250 yds from the hide position .

I haven't chronoed the guns .as I sold my chrono last year. It's also pretty  difficult to get a reliable reading (having tried in the past .) 

And any ballistic program basically shows that a small (150 fps ) difference between muzzle velocities make virtually no difference to maximum fall out range .So I won't bother to chrono the guns and different carts .And rely on printed info as being close enough . 

The weight of the shot my be a touch different from one brand to another (all being say English no6 ) 

But I seriously doubt this would make any difference at all .

So this leaves wads .And the average  bc of the pellets after they have been shot due to any deformation taken place in the gun .

I appreciate  the input and dont whish to appear  rude ..

But I dont know for sure and thought I would ask pw. 

 

But we are talking shot guns and cartridges and not rifles and bullets there isn't a lot of overlap in and internal  external   and terminal ballistics of the 2 .

Thanks .Stu 

 

I do and as I do this for a living not a hobby probably understand the legal ramifications better too.  

Now your gun fires 200 yards what tail wind is that with? 

Or you can use the except tables that where done by scienctist and published with an extra safety margin that will ensure you don't exceed with any of the appropriate shotguns and will be used in investigations etc.  

I'm afraid I give up I'm out.  

[Ultrastu]

Thanks Welsh warrior /rewulf. 

Good posts and very constructive  .

Yep the safety aspect of fall out is always the first consideration to any land I shoot ..

 this new perm is tricky with paths and roads all over the place .And there isn't a clear 300 yds in any direction .But it has to be shot to keep the pigeons at bay .And instead of giving up . A .410 seems the solution .

Yes a tail wind can increase the range significantly . But equally a head wind can shorten the range big time too .

So it's working with what we have got .to get the job done .

I was surprised as much as my mate to find the .410 shot dropping around 175 yds on the day and more experiments with wind directions  and cartridges will follow .

I've held off posting this on the forum for a few weeks as i wanted to find more  info .But I thought it maybe common knowledge that a .410 doesn't go as far as a 20 /12 ? Or that some one might be able to offer a theory as to why /confirm my own .

I'm gonna finish this thread here .And do some more experimenting in better conditions over more carts and guns .see if I can form a reliable trend and then .formulate any theories .

I appreciate  the input from the above constructive posters .

Thank you 

Stu 

 

[6.5x55SE]

41 minutes ago, Penelope said:

It's all about lift, each bird gains lift from the one infront, thus exerting less energy.

How come single bird's or one's flying side by side in a line don't fall down or only fly low through being tired !!!!!!!  only joking  

[Ultrastu]

[6.5x55SE]

25 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Thanks Welsh warrior /rewulf. 

Good posts and very constructive  .

Yep the safety aspect of fall out is always the first consideration to any land I shoot ..

 this new perm is tricky with paths and roads all over the place .And there isn't a clear 300 yds in any direction .But it has to be shot to keep the pigeons at bay .And instead of giving up . A .410 seems the solution .

Yes a tail wind can increase the range significantly . But equally a head wind can shorten the range big time too .

So it's working with what we have got .to get the job done .

I was surprised as much as my mate to find the .410 shot dropping around 175 yds on the day and more experiments with wind directions  and cartridges will follow .

I've held off posting this on the forum for a few weeks as i wanted to find more  info .But I thought it maybe common knowledge that a .410 doesn't go as far as a 20 /12 ? Or that some one might be able to offer a theory as to why /confirm my own .

I'm gonna finish this thread here .And do some more experimenting in better conditions over more carts and guns .see if I can form a reliable trend and then .formulate any theories .

I appreciate  the input from the above constructive posters .

Thank you 

Stu 

 

Safe is Safe end of and that boils down to the shooter in this case you and your mate.

You mentioned there's no clear space further than 300 yrd. Well I'm my opinion which you previously don't like I'd not be shooting it also if it's safe for a .410 it's safe for a 12ga 

1 minute ago, Ultrastu said:

All if's and But's

[Ultrastu]

Just as a last point for those interested 

The blue,  red and pink shots are with the same average bc and only alter the muzzle speed and the maximum distance see how little the distance is altered by a massive drop in velocity .

The green is the same muzzle velocity as the blue  ie 1300 fps .But the bc is lower .look how much the max range is shortened  too .175 yds .

This is what has lead me to believe that its not the speed thats relevant but the shape of the lead shot .lowering the bc .

I will leave you with the above to digest .

Ps ignore the 4 grains its not relevent  (its the lowest value that cg.will allow ) 

[JDog]

Had I considered that shooting a shotgun was this complicated I would never have taken it up fifty years ago.

[Whitebridges]

1 minute ago, JDog said:

Had I considered that shooting a shotgun was this complicated I would never have taken it up fifty years ago.

Me to JD but i'm a newbie with 49 years shooting under my belt. I can't make head nor tail of what's going on with this.

[geordieh]

Actually it is not a criminal offence for shot or a bullet to leave your permission it is a civil offence so you can be done for trespass but only if they can prove damage.It is however illegal for an airgun pellet to cross your boundary

[walshie]

People overthink everything these days. As long as you know how far a given gun shoots, does it really matter why? Especially when most of the answers are speculation. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by walshie

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Safe is Safe end of and that boils down to the shooter in this case you and your mate.

You mentioned there's no clear space further than 300 yrd. Well I'm my opinion which you previously don't like I'd not be shooting it also if it's safe for a .410 it's safe for a 12ga 

All if's and But's

And the rest! I don't know what formula was used in those tables but what I can tell you without a shodow of a doubt is that the first thre BCs (GS) relate as near as damnit to  Sp.SG and the 4th, BBB shot sizes.