ANOTHER BETRAYAL

[Retsdon]

6 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

Who knows?  I'm not sure we have to have one, we don't want one, ROI doesn't one but the EU might insist there has to be one.

If Britain leaves the single market, then there must be a customs border - and that means a hard border. There's no way that the EU, by its own rules, can sanction the unreguated movement of goods between a member state and another non-member state unless that state is signed up to the single market. The EU isn't playing some negotiating  game on this. That's just how it works, not just eith the EU, but with every trade bloc in the world.

[Danger-Mouse]

Just now, Retsdon said:

If Britain leaves the single market, then there must be a customs border - and that means a hard border. There's no way that the EU, by its own rules, can sanction the unreguated movement of goods between a member state and another non-member state unless that state is signed up to the single market. The EU isn't playing some negotiating  game on this. That's just how it works, not just eith the EU, but with every trade bloc in the world.

That may well be true, but there is nothing to say that we have to enforce any such border. Such a decision, and all costs incurred by such a decision would have to be met by the EU/Eire if we said we had no interest in establishing such a border. A point made not so long ago by JRM.

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, jam1e said:

Yet she is consistently undermined and stabbed in the back by her own party members.

It's called politics - and it's a foul game in which no one follows the rules, no one has any loyalty after the election is passed - everyone is scrambling on the 'greasy pole'.  In the long run it has few winners (if any, can't really think of one since Churchill)

Very occasionally people leave politics - and some are genuine people once the 'party' is removed.  Michael Portillo does a great job on his railway journeys - and is right to keep politics out of that.

[yod dropper]

6 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

If Britain leaves the single market, then there must be a customs border - and that means a hard border. There's no way that the EU, by its own rules, can sanction the unreguated movement of goods between a member state and another non-member state unless that state is signed up to the single market. The EU isn't playing some negotiating  game on this. That's just how it works, not just eith the EU, but with every trade bloc in the world.

If true, then there will be hard border.  The leaders of the Remain campaign, Messers Cameron and Osbourne made it absolutely clear that a vote to leave meant leaving the single market. 

[bostonmick]

I think we all need to get used to the idea we will never be out of the eu.its a total farce from start to finish.

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, Danger-Mouse said:

That may well be true, but there is nothing to say that we have to enforce any such border. Such a decision, and all costs incurred by such a decision would have to be met by the EU/Eire if we said we had no interest in establishing such a border. A point made not so long ago by JRM.

Well, we'll see. It wouldn't surprise me if the goal were to try and manouvre the EU/Republic into being the ones to  erect a border across Ireland. But of course, that would be impossible politically for Dublin, so then what? 

[yod dropper]

On topic, has anybody actually listened to what Mr Corbyn said?  So far, I see that the Labour position seems to be further from what the EU are already indicating we can't have.

This is a continuation of classic and fairly effective Labour obsfucation.  

They are seeking to topple the government and this trumps all else but they must balance this with the precarious margins in many of the leave voting seats they hold.

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, yod dropper said:

So far, I see that the Labour position seems to be further from what the EU are already indicating we can't have.

I have listened to it (not sure if it was an edited version) and quite agree with the above.  Seems to me he was saying that we would 'pick and choose', which is what exactly Barmier and co said they wouldn't do ......... but then they are politicians as well - and they all do U turns faster than greased lightning.  Mrs May was a remain campaigner.  Mr Corbyn was always a Euro sceptic ...... now look at them!

Corbyn voted against membership in 1975, voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, and voted against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009. He has opposed the EU at every opportunity up until now.

[Vince Green]

Free trade only benefits the seller, it disadvantages the buyer because we lose import duties that we could have charged. At the moment they sell us about £70 billion more than we sell them. So how is that a good situation for the UK?

People like Clegg keep banging on about "we must stay in the single market" but why??? It has cost us so much money and so many industries. Look at the Steel industry alone. Germany heavily but illegally subsidises its own steel industry and makes no secret of it. That made our steel industry uncompetitive, and wiped it out. how is that fair? Unless there is a hidden agenda? 

Look how the EU has twisted the knife in the backs of Italy Greece and Spain when their economies faltered due to being in the Euro. No spirit of partnership there, they got no help just more knife turning, the EU has behaved like a pay day loan company, would we ever want to be in that position? I really don't think so.

I have said it before, the EU behaves exactly like Ancient Rome did to the countries within its borders. Total control, creeping subjugation.

So much of what the EU is doing now doesn't appear to benefit any member country as far as I can see, if you believe in conspiracy theories you could believe they are reeling us in gradually. Creating something slightly sinister in the sense that once we are in it there is no escape.

[matone]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

If Britain leaves the single market, then there must be a customs border - and that means a hard border. There's no way that the EU, by its own rules, can sanction the unreguated movement of goods between a member state and another non-member state unless that state is signed up to the single market. The EU isn't playing some negotiating  game on this. That's just how it works, not just eith the EU, but with every trade bloc in the world.

Is there a `hard ` border with Austria & Switzerland ?

[Gordon R]

Quote

 The vast majority of people I talk to were very much on the fence about which way they were voting and it was a very marginal decision either way.

Bit like a General Election. Difference is that the losers have to abide by the decision, not try to undermine the whole country, because they are rather childish losers.. Listen to what Frank Field says - he nailed it.

[tandytommo]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

Well, we'll see. It wouldn't surprise me if the goal were to try and manouvre the EU/Republic into being the ones to  erect a border across Ireland. But of course, that would be impossible politically for Dublin, so then what? 

The shooting starts again sadly, and nobody in their right mind wants to see that all kick off again. 

 

 

[TriBsa]

10 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Bit like a General Election. Difference is that the losers have to abide by the decision, not try to undermine the whole country, because they are rather childish losers.. Listen to what Frank Field says - he nailed it.

And those losers; despite the lies of people like Blair, are actually getting less anti Brexit according to opinion polls. The sky hasn't caved in as predicted and the pre referendum scare stories are being disproved one by one. Only last week the CEO of Airbus Industries confirmed that it would be business as usual despite brexit. Doubt if the BBC carried that story. The only ones who haven't woken up and smelt the coffee in the main seem to be our political class and civil servants. 

[MELLYBOY]

4 hours ago, Tim Kelly said:

To me, the closeness of the vote indicates that we should leave, but in the "softest" way possible. Had it been a 70% leave vote, then a "hard" Brexit would be justified, but as it is, there is no option other than trying to leave the political union with as little alteration to the "common market" we joined as possible.

 Oh please !

[tandytommo]

13 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Bit like a General Election. Difference is that the losers have to abide by the decision, not try to undermine the whole country, because they are rather childish losers.. Listen to what Frank Field says - he nailed it.

Lots of rather childish winners too, if the brexit vote had gone the other way I can't imagine many contributors on this forum accepting the result graciously. I kind of hope Labour do win the next election, It will be very interesting to see if any of the rabid  right wing contributors on here would stop moaning and bitching about it.   

[Gordon R]

If the electorate are dumb enough to vote Labour, I will happily accept the result. That's democracy.

That said, I wish the Labour Party had a better bunch to run it - the current lot are a shifty bunch, who I wouldn't trust to run a two ticket raffle.

[Danger-Mouse]

7 minutes ago, tandytommo said:

Lots of rather childish winners too, if the brexit vote had gone the other way I can't imagine many contributors on this forum accepting the result graciously. I kind of hope Labour do win the next election, It will be very interesting to see if any of the rabid  right wing contributors on here would stop moaning and bitching about it.   

I think things would have been rather different. Whilst I agree the Brexiteers would have been hoping for another referendum they would have been looking 20 years ahead rather than the immediate future. The difference between the two sides is that the leavers, whilst hopeful of winning, weren't really very confident they would, but those that wanted to stay couldn't see themselves losing and as a result are now choking on a huge dose of humble pie.

Wanting Labour to win is a bit like the comment made in Generation Kill by Lance Cpl. Harold James Trombley:

"I know this may sound weird but deep down, I kinda wanted to know what it feels like to get shot. . ."

 

[Danger-Mouse]

5 hours ago, Tim Kelly said:

To me, the closeness of the vote indicates that we should leave, but in the "softest" way possible. Had it been a 70% leave vote, then a "hard" Brexit would be justified, but as it is, there is no option other than trying to leave the political union with as little alteration to the "common market" we joined as possible.

Completely inaccurate. Cameron et al made it perfectly clear that even if the result was as close as a single vote the decision would be upheld. Soft and hard are just terms invented post referendum to attempt to muddy the waters and dilute the democratic decision made by the voters of this country.

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

The difference between the two sides is that the leavers, whilst hopeful of winning, weren't really very confident they would, but those that wanted to stay couldn't see themselves losing and as a result are now choking on a huge dose of humble pie.

Spot on...Cameron's face was a picture...

[ordnance]

Quote

The shooting starts again sadly, and nobody in their right mind wants to see that all kick off again. 

That type of talk is being put about by remainers they are cynically using it to push their agenda,  but its dangerous to talk this up as there are imbeciles here that would use it as a excuse for violence. The fact is there is already a border, and if there is a hard border it will be the EU insists on and the Irish government that will have to put it in place, not the British government. 

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, yod dropper said:

On topic, has anybody actually listened to what Mr Corbyn said?  So far, I see that the Labour position seems to be further from what the EU are already indicating we can't have.

This is a continuation of classic and fairly effective Labour obsfucation.  

They are seeking to topple the government and this trumps all else but they must balance this with the precarious margins in many of the leave voting seats they hold.

Corbyn was my MP for nearly ten years when I lived in North London. My impression of him then was a total bone idle plonker. He could criticise everybody at the drop of a hat, from the lack of nursery school places for single mums to the plans to build HS2. But to me he always lacked sincerity and never lifted a finger to do anything positive. He never served the community he was paid to represent but happily sucked up to all the minority groups.

Unlike probably anybody else on this forum I have met him and spoken to him several times. The experience fills me with apprehension. He is aloof, distant and unbearably patronising. to think he may ever get elected is frankly terrifying   

[Danger-Mouse]

15 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Spot on...Cameron's face was a picture...

I didn't do a Cameron meme but I'm still rather proud of this one . . .

[ShootingEgg]

5 hours ago, oowee said:

Leave the EU yes. Leave the customs union? We did not vote for that.

 

Is the customs union part of the EU? if so then yes, we  voted to leave it. We did not vote to do a pick n mix. It was a clear remain/leave. 

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

I didn't do a Cameron meme but I'm still rather proud of this one . . .

....Cretin Osbourne was another..

[notsosureshot]

Cameron was a damp squib.  May flat out lacks respect and Corbyn is a communist for all intents and purposes in addition to being an IRA sympathiser and supporter of several other organisations which were or are considered to be terrorist by multiple countries.  I dont think that is even in dispute?

There isnt a decent leadership prospect amongst them.  As my friend so eloquently put it during the last US election, it's a choice between a giant **** and a **** sandwich.

The younger end and the short of pocket will primarily be the backers of Corbyn as his unbalanced cash book appeals to that vibe of non-repayable student loans, weekly finance on appliances or furniture, lofty social ideas and benefits for all, regardless of the consequences to the economic stability of the country.  You can get away with such beliefs when you're young because you don't have the magnitude of responsibility that you do when you've passed say, 30 and have a stable reasonably well paying job and a family.  It's no coincidence that the majority of conservative type voters tend to be older, it's because they've already had their crazy days of debt up to their eyeballs for stupid stuff and learned the lesson....  His entire manifesto is almost total nonsense, literally something a teenager would write, or maybe even a letter to Santa for an 8 year old.

May, she commands no power because she constantly reverses herself.  She is an appeaser trying to please everyone and just cannot tie together any cohesive policies for the longer term, particularly on key issues such as housing, immigration and Brexit.  The perception of her seems generally poor.  If you asked me, I'm not even sure I could tell you what she stands for, aside from herself.

It's a big bloody mess is what it is.