Side by Side Club

[PeterHenry]

4 hours ago, wymberley said:

Gripswell

👍

[ehb102]

I shot the British Side By Side championship at AGL today. Nice enough course. I think. I did well. I straighted the first stand and it was mostly positive from there. Not stand two which had a fooled you midi coming in that I could not find. There was a very nasty pair of dropping crows far away later that I managed to hit just one of, but people hitting in the 80s didn't manage more than four, so I will forgive myself. I had great fun with the grouse sequence, scoring 11/12. Apparently five people did and no one straighted it. I ended up on 65 and didn't win ladies because this year ladies are excluded from the requirement to use a British side by side gun. Given that this was always the entire point of the festival I'm not impressed by this. Nor was I impressed by the replacement of the promised barbecue with a jacket potato and chilli. I'm not a student. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Well done Madam!    

 

Good to see you out again, nothing to do with the Game Season being on the horizon?

[CoventryWire]

Hope you don't mind me joining your exclusive club?

Here's one of mine, a 28'' William Evans From Purdy BLE, choked 1/2 & 3/4 with 2 1/2 chambers.

I'm pretty sure it was made by Webley & Scott for William Evans, with the dolls head extension and the Anson & Deely mechanism.  It was originally ordered in 1929 as a "Stock" gun and sold in 1935 to a Mr Formby.  Thankfully William Evans still have some of the records from this time and were able to send me a photocopy.  At some point after it was purchased, it was "paired" with another gun and modified to be a mild central vision stock gun (probably to match the Number 1).  It shoots really well considering its 100 years old, It's taken a few high birds and broken plenty of clays!!

Earlier this year, I tracked down a period correct case for it on ebay which I think goes really well with it.

It's currently in my cabinet, waiting to be replaced by a nice T.Daintith gun when I can find one!! (Hint - If anyone has one for sale, PM me!!)

I've also got another lovely old english SbS that I'll add a post about when I get some pictures.

[ehb102]

On 16/09/2023 at 19:34, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Well done Madam!    

 

Good to see you out again, nothing to do with the Game Season being on the horizon?

More about space between surgeries. I resolved to be about for the sxs! 

[GBS]

On 03/11/2022 at 09:40, GBS said:

The latest addition to make an 'irregular' pair.

Same maker (ish).

Same weight, barrel length, almost the same stock dimensions but slightly different handling.

Same engraver....?

The Dickson boxlock has been slowly restored over the past year with a full strip/boil/service, barrels re-engraved and then re-blacked. Its now looking quite smart. The hand needs to be re-chequered but that can wait until February.

[Penelope]

27 minutes ago, GBS said:

The Dickson boxlock has been slowly restored over the past year with a full strip/boil/service, barrels re-engraved and then re-blacked. Its now looking quite smart. The hand needs to be re-chequered but that can wait until February.

Lovely, but would be better if it was 'round' 😉.

[GBS]

19 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Lovely, but would be better if it was 'round' 😉.

See my previous message quoted above. This BLE is 70mm proofed and i've altered the chokes so it can use standard steel to take the pressure off (pun intended!) the Round Action. GBS

[Red696]

Can I get admission to the SxS club?

only had my ticket for  just over a week but had to get a Side by Side, so picked up a £40 cheapie Ugartechea 12 gauge this morning to go with the o/u and semi.

planning to fully strip and refurb the woodwork, it may not be high grade wood but it will look good after the full oil treatment ( love the smell of BLO ).

I would appreciate some translation confirming my interpretation of the date and choke marks etc.  if I’m correct 1971, full and half chokes & maker, the other marks I’m struggling with.

 

Entry to the club would be nice..  off to do some varnish removal

 

 

 

One more query, the barrels are very dull and look to be blacked not blued is this how they were produced?

[JohnfromUK]

19 minutes ago, Red696 said:

Can I get admission to the SxS club?

only had my ticket for  just over a week but had to get a Side by Side, so picked up a £40 cheapie Ugartechea 12 gauge this morning to go with the o/u and semi.

planning to fully strip and refurb the woodwork, it may not be high grade wood but it will look good after the full oil treatment ( love the smell of BLO ).

I would appreciate some translation confirming my interpretation of the date and choke marks etc.  if I’m correct 1971, full and half chokes & maker, the other marks I’m struggling with.

 

Entry to the club would be nice..  off to do some varnish removal

 

 

 

One more query, the barrels are very dull and look to be blacked not blued is this how they were produced?

Welcome to the SBS thread.

IU is Ignacio Ugartechea.

P1 is the date code from the Spanish proof house for 1971.

12 - 70 is 12 bore with 2 3/4" (70 mm) chambers

900 Kg is the proof pressure level - and is a standard  (i.e. not a magnum) proof

1330 grms is the weight of the barrels at the time of proof (in grammes)

Note sure on the choke marks as I can't see them in the photos, but in any case, they may have been opened out by a previous owner.  Easy for a gunsmith to measure.

You seem to have a firing pin 'forward'?  It may be that you have fired off the lock after the barrels were removed.  This can lead to difficulty in assembling the gun (as the locks need to be cocked on many guns for assembly).  Also - firing off the locks without some 'buffer' such as snap caps does carry a risk of damage.  It is better never to fire off the locks unless actually in use shooting, or with 'snap caps' for testing purposes.

When firing pins are forward like your photo they can get bent or broken easily trying to close the gun.

'Blacking and Blueing' are names both used.  There are various processes, and some are more glossy than others.

A high gloss is typically more likely on expensive guns with a lot of hand finishing and polishing before the final blacking/blueing.

Edited September 25, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, GBS said:

See my previous message quoted above. This BLE is 70mm proofed and i've altered the chokes so it can use standard steel to take the pressure off (pun intended!) the Round Action. GBS

 

[Red696]

@JohnfromUK  thanks for the reply and info.  The seller had it a full and half choke and the barrels have * & *** on them, but as you say they may have been altered.

 

I now need to source some suitable screw drivers to suit, as all of my tools are geared to my airguns, any suggestions that wont break the bank?

[JohnfromUK]

37 minutes ago, Red696 said:

 

I now need to source some suitable screw drivers to suit, as all of my tools are geared to my airguns, any suggestions that wont break the bank?

I use hex inserts (you can buy extra thin ones if needed from Brownells, but they are expensive) and grind to fit as necessary.  Be careful to grind without heating too much or you will spoil the temper and they will be soft.  Buy a standard set from a reputable name (not cheap rubbish which are soft) and if necessary grind to fit exactly and use a magnetic hex holder handle.

[button]

6 hours ago, GBS said:

The Dickson boxlock has been slowly restored over the past year with a full strip/boil/service, barrels re-engraved and then re-blacked. Its now looking quite smart. The hand needs to be re-chequered but that can wait until February.

Very nice👍

[London Best]

I keep toying with the idea of having my Dickson nitro proofed. 
It dates from 1865 and has non-rebounding locks.

[Dave at kelton]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I keep toying with the idea of having my Dickson nitro proofed. 
It dates from 1865 and has non-rebounding locks.

Not sure I would bother. Far more fun using black powder

[McSpredder]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I keep toying with the idea of having my Dickson nitro proofed. 
It dates from 1865 and has non-rebounding locks.

Nitro proofing won’t make it stronger.   Even if it passes, the abnormally high proof pressures may actually weaken it.

If it failed, what would you do with it?   In the worst case, a beautiful example of the gunmaker’s craft could have been converted in to a heap of scrap metal.    If it was returned intact, you might perhaps continue using it with black powder, or else hang it on the wall, but it wouldn’t be saleable with defaced proof marks.  

[enfieldspares]

6 hours ago, Red696 said:

I would appreciate some translation confirming my interpretation of the date and choke marks etc.  if I’m correct 1971, full and half chokes & maker, the other marks I’m struggling with.

One more query, the barrels are very dull and look to be blacked not blued is this how they were produced?

Spanish choke was done by stars. Sensible system as the more stars the less choke. Easy! Take it from full choke (*) to three quarter choke (**) then just stamp that second star alongside the one star already there. Still too tight? Well take it out to half choke (***) find that "star" stamp and stamp it next to the existing two stars to give three stars. And, logically, one quarter choke is four stars.

Regarding the barrels I'd speculate that this is indeed original. Even back in the day when wages in Spain were low getting a deep glossy inky black took time and time even then was money. So I'd guess that your less time hungry finish is, yes, correct. Bear in mind though with the choke that it may have been opened up later and not stamped. So that * or ** may be what it once was not what it is now.

Thank you for sharing your gun with us SBS afficianado.

[London Best]

14 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

Not sure I would bother. Far more fun using black powder

That is true, but a pain to find cartridges.

 

13 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Nitro proofing won’t make it stronger.   Even if it passes, the abnormally high proof pressures may actually weaken it.

If it failed, what would you do with it?   In the worst case, a beautiful example of the gunmaker’s craft could have been converted in to a heap of scrap metal.    If it was returned intact, you might perhaps continue using it with black powder, or else hang it on the wall, but it wouldn’t be saleable with defaced proof marks.  

Oddly, the Dickson does not actually have any proof marks, other than a provisional mark. No definitive marks anywhere.

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, London Best said:

Oddly, the Dickson does not actually have any proof marks, other than a provisional mark. No definitive marks anywhere.

Would that men that it would be illegal to 'sell'?  My Manton muzzle loader has no proof marks, but it pre dates mandatory proof (1868 I think?). 

[London Best]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Would that men that it would be illegal to 'sell'?  My Manton muzzle loader has no proof marks, but it pre dates mandatory proof (1868 I think?). 

I had assumed illegal to sell, but maybe not if, as you say, proof did not become mandatory until 1868. Will have to research that one, but it’s not for sale anyway.

@McSpredder The gun is unlikely to fail proof. 
The barrels are both at .719”, they have a minimum wall thickness of over .040”, and the bores are pristine. The action is solid tight on the face (Jones underlever closure). I know it has been used with nitro cartridges (likely for most of the last century).

Edited September 26, 2023 by London Best

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, London Best said:

I had assumed illegal to sell, but maybe not if, as you say, proof did not become mandatory until 1868. Will have to research that one, but it’s not for sale anyway.

I have no intention of selling my Manton, which I don't believe has been sold since the early 19th century as I was given it from a family that had definitely owned it since the 1850s and possibly since new (1810).  I have been variously told that it could be sold (as an antique muzzle loader it could be classed as 'off ticket', though it is on my ticket) if it was not sold 'for use', and I have also been told that it could be sold as it pre-dated mandatory proof, and others have said it must be proved before sale (it is deemed to be in suitable condition to pass proof having plenty of wall thickness and no serious pitting).

As I don't intend to sell, I have never followed up on the correct position.

[London Best]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Would that men that it would be illegal to 'sell'?  My Manton muzzle loader has no proof marks, but it pre dates mandatory proof (1868 I think?). 

From ‘Notes on the Proof of Shotguns and other small arms’...... 

Since 1813 it has been illegal to sell or offer for sale an unproved arm anywhere in the U.K.

[JohnfromUK]

18 minutes ago, London Best said:

From ‘Notes on the Proof of Shotguns and other small arms’...... 

Since 1813 it has been illegal to sell or offer for sale an unproved arm anywhere in the U.K.

In fact my gun pre dates 1813, but I guess the legislation applies to items made before that date.  It would have been legal when Manton originally sold it (believed 1810) and I believe it has been handed down or gifted since circa 1852 which was as far back as ownership could be confirmed.  It's history before that is unclear (Joseph Manton's records don't survive) but may have been in the same family from new until it was gifted to me.

Not an issue for me as it won't be sold in my lifetime.

[Red696]

On 25/09/2023 at 12:17, JohnfromUK said:

 

You seem to have a firing pin 'forward'?  It may be that you have fired off the lock after the barrels were removed.  This can lead to difficulty in assembling the gun (as the locks need to be cocked on many guns for assembly).  Also - firing off the locks without some 'buffer' such as snap caps does carry a risk of damage.  It is better never to fire off the locks unless actually in use shooting, or with 'snap caps' for testing purposes.

When firing pins are forward like your photo they can get bent or broken easily trying to close the gun.

 

How do I get the firing pins to retract?  I have put the barrels and forend back on but the slide catches the pins, have I screwed it?

I hope not as a £40 gun is never going to worth spending Gunsmith money on.  Feeling gutted