Side by Side Club

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, London Best said:

so just use bismuth/tungsten.

Isn't that plastic wad?

 

3 minutes ago, buze said:

The gun *had* to be rechocked and therefore reproofed anyway as it was 3/4 and I'm pretty sure you can't shoot even "normal" steel in more than 1/2 anyway.

I'm not sure why reproof was needed for opening choke from 3/4 to 1/2?

Most sources advise no more than 1/2 choke for steel, but that is also I think for pattern reasons.

[London Best]

Bismuth is certainly not plaswads. I will have to double check the tungsten I have as I didn’t buy it but inherited it.

[Smokersmith]

When they're plastic wads I'll happily take them off your hands 🙂

[arjimlad]

I read a review of the B Rizzini SBS offering in the Field the other day which had me drooling a bit... seem to be some competition for the Beretta 

https://www.a-s-i.co.uk/showroom_product/br550-round-body 

 

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, London Best said:

Bismuth is certainly not plaswads. I will have to double check the tungsten I have as I didn’t buy it but inherited it.

My tungsten matrix ones are plastic (Gamebore TMX).   I was mis-sold - for the price I thought I was getting 24 carat gold shot with silk and kidd leather wads

[buze]

1 minute ago, arjimlad said:

I read a review of the B Rizzini SBS offering in the Field the other day which had me drooling a bit... seem to be some competition for the Beretta 

https://www.a-s-i.co.uk/showroom_product/br550-round-body 

 

When I looked a while back they were doign something similar to Chapuis (fitting, option selection etc). Certainly "good value" if it's the case? Need to find a distributor.

I had a look at the Parallelllo and I don't like it at all -- quite frankly it really looks cheap, perhaps it's the model that has been for sale at Emmet&Stone for years and others are better, but really meh.

[Smokersmith]

Agree .. certainly don't think the 18k special edition jobbie is anywhere near worth it either.

[theshootist]

1 hour ago, buze said:

Early in the year, I bought a #1 AYA from the 80's, specifically to have it reopened to 1/2 1/2 and proofed for steel. There were countless arguments at the time about it not being necessary etc etc etc but anyway, I wanted the proof mark...

Lockdown happened, then proof house taking 4 months to do anything and I was told yesterday the gun *failed* the proof... Bulged both barrels just at the forcing cones; the theory is that it was especialy lightweight barrels, and therefore less metal.

Anyway, luckily, since it was part of my order, I'm getting a refund, and I'm therefore back on the market for "my" game gun. SxS, steel proof -- I was pondering Chapuis a while back, but I'm not sure they are still /entirely/ in business, as googling find just one distro, and I'm not sure their catalogue is current...

Any other option? 

Bad luck. This rather undermines the assertion that standard steel shells are fine in any nitro proofed gun. 

Edit - read all the other posts that I didn't see. So HP Steel proof, not standard. I understand why Buze wanted HP steel proof though. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by theshootist

[London Best]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

My tungsten matrix ones are plastic (Gamebore TMX).   I was mis-sold - for the price I thought I was getting 24 carat gold shot with silk and kidd leather wads

Yes, they certainly are a price. I think, when I looked, they were nearly £70/box?  The tungsten I was given are 25 gram 5 shot 2 1/2 inch 20 gauge. They are very effective. Using my 20 on a rough walked up day I was waiting for some duck to flush from a large pond. With the duck out pops a greylag which was dropped stone dead at over 40 yards.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, theshootist said:

Bad luck.

Agreed, but

 

2 minutes ago, theshootist said:

This rather undermines the assertion that standard steel shells are fine in any nitro proofed gun. 

I don't think that is the case.  I think they were looking for HP steel proof.  The gunsmith took a view that the barrels action were up to HP proof - and sadly were wrong.  I still believe that the standard proof (70mm/2 3/4") is adequate for standard steel, but advise less that 1/2 choke.  I don't believe there would be any need for reproof for this, but the prospective owner wanted to be able to use HP steel - and so it was right to try for reproof.

1 minute ago, London Best said:

Yes, they certainly are a price. I think, when I looked, they were nearly £70/box?

Mine were just over £30 for a box of 25 (that is 32g 2 3/4") Gamebore TMX - a couple of years ago though.

[London Best]

I thought Bismuth cost that much? I inherited those too, from a deceased friend.

[theshootist]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Agreed, but

 

I don't think that is the case.  I think they were looking for HP steel proof.  The gunsmith took a view that the barrels action were up to HP proof - and sadly were wrong.  I still believe that the standard proof (70mm/2 3/4") is adequate for standard steel, but advise less that 1/2 choke.  I don't believe there would be any need for reproof for this, but the prospective owner wanted to be able to use HP steel - and so it was right to try for reproof.

Yes. I know there may well be some disagreement, but having tried some standard steel shells I found the performance poor. 

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, London Best said:

I thought Bismuth cost that much?

Not sure; I must admit I thought mine were bismuth until I got them out a few minutes ago - and they are tungsten, hence the TMX.  I have only ever bought one box as I don't shoot quarry that needs non toxic.

1 minute ago, theshootist said:

Yes. I know there may well be some disagreement, but having tried some standard steel shells I found the performance poor. 

I can't really disagree or comment as I haven't tried myself, but I know some people who say that they are fine, whereas others (including a friend whose shooting and knowledge I greatly respect) say that they are only OK if you stay within significantly less range than the equivalent lead and pick your shots accordingly.

[Smokersmith]

ITM and TMX are different shot types with different qualities and prices.

[Gerry78]

4 hours ago, theshootist said:

Yes. I know there may well be some disagreement, but having tried some standard steel shells I found the performance poor. 

Most of my shooting is with standard steel 2 3/4 Gamebore I think there fine for ducks wood pigeons and crows within a suitable range Personally I would have not touched the aya no1 for the ranges the average gun gonna take game standard steel would be effective HP Steel I have used but only only the odd goose 

[button]

6 hours ago, buze said:

When I looked a while back they were doign something similar to Chapuis (fitting, option selection etc). Certainly "good value" if it's the case? Need to find a distributor.

I had a look at the Parallelllo and I don't like it at all -- quite frankly it really looks cheap, perhaps it's the model that has been for sale at Emmet&Stone for years and others are better, but really meh.

The new William Powell range made by Rizzini are smart looking and HP steel proofed

[buze]

Thanks for all the input guys, very informative.

I saw the barrels today and yes, visibly bulged. A few things I learned:

+ They had measured the wall thickness and they were in perfect condition, well within spec, so it was a "no brainer" that it would pass.

+ It was NOT a set of "lightweight barrels" as perhasp we thought

Sportarms are going to get the barrels x-rayed to try to understand the problem, as they have a lot of request for re-proofing for steel from people with very expensive guns, so having a failure like that but learning about it is actually valuable in the long run.
This failure could be a combination of perhaps a defect in the steel, or, perhaps, a repair that was so good as to be 'invisible' but weakened the steel anyway. So it's /possible/ it was actually out of proof /as it was/ -- a bit chiling.

In any case, all is perhaps not lost, as they are going to see if a new set of barrels can be made within my lifetime (jocking) -- in which case, it could take 6-9 months, but I will get HP proof from the factory. At no cost to me, so since I already had given up on using this gun this season, I might take the plunge and wait some more!

 

[Smokersmith]

35 minutes ago, buze said:

Thanks for all the input guys, very informative.

I saw the barrels today and yes, visibly bulged. A few things I learned:

+ They had measured the wall thickness and they were in perfect condition, well within spec, so it was a "no brainer" that it would pass.

+ It was NOT a set of "lightweight barrels" as perhasp we thought

Sportarms are going to get the barrels x-rayed to try to understand the problem, as they have a lot of request for re-proofing for steel from people with very expensive guns, so having a failure like that but learning about it is actually valuable in the long run.
This failure could be a combination of perhaps a defect in the steel, or, perhaps, a repair that was so good as to be 'invisible' but weakened the steel anyway. So it's /possible/ it was actually out of proof /as it was/ -- a bit chiling.

In any case, all is perhaps not lost, as they are going to see if a new set of barrels can be made within my lifetime (jocking) -- in which case, it could take 6-9 months, but I will get HP proof from the factory. At no cost to me, so since I already had given up on using this gun this season, I might take the plunge and wait some more!

 

Sounds like a good plan.

[JohnfromUK]

I don't quite understand all of this.

My understanding is that there is one type of "steel proof" signified by the 'fleur de lis' mark.  Guns so marked can be used with both standard steel and HP steel loads. 

To gain this mark, they undergo a higher pressure test firing at the proof house - 1320 bar, not dissimilar to (in fact higher than) the 2 3/4" higher proof of 1200 bar.

Now my AyA No 1 was proofed at 900 bar originally.  It is a fairly light built game gun, designed for light fast handling, not heavy 'high bird' loads, which would be punishing to both the gun and the shooters shoulder.  To do a proof test at 1320 bar is near enough 50% greater than standard.  It therefore seems to me that to get a set of barrels designed to pass proof at 900 bar through at 1320 bar is rather a 'tall order'.  My gunsmith certainly told me that my No 1 would not pass the steel proof test (presumably the 1320 bar 'fleur de lis' test).

Am I missing something?

[matone]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't quite understand all of this.

My understanding is that there is one type of "steel proof" signified by the 'fleur de lis' mark.  Guns so marked can be used with both standard steel and HP steel loads. 

To gain this mark, they undergo a higher pressure test firing at the proof house - 1320 bar, not dissimilar to (in fact higher than) the 2 3/4" higher proof of 1200 bar.

Now my AyA No 1 was proofed at 900 bar originally.  It is a fairly light built game gun, designed for light fast handling, not heavy 'high bird' loads, which would be punishing to both the gun and the shooters shoulder.  To do a proof test at 1320 bar is near enough 50% greater than standard.  It therefore seems to me that to get a set of barrels designed to pass proof at 900 bar through at 1320 bar is rather a 'tall order'.  My gunsmith certainly told me that my No 1 would not pass the steel proof test (presumably the 1320 bar 'fleur de lis' test).

Am I missing something?

Totally agree with you there .Just why even submit a No1 to that.Stupidity in my book....

[buze]

I was going to thank @JohnfromUK for questioning very nicely and positively the motives, but then again another "Pigeonwatch Special Needs" lands with both feet in the soup just afterward ruining the rather nice discussion so far.

@JohnfromUK I went to the shop with one particular need: One game gun, SxS, steel proof, fitted. I want something for small game AND ducks geese on occasion. This particular gun did fit the bill even a bit better than I expected, as it has 30", round action, self opening etc etc.

The guys at the shop (It's Sportarms, with multiple branches and gunsmith on the payroll) having measured the barrels, they declared THIS could be reopened to 1/2 1/2 (my request) and HP proofed. They have done several before (not AYA), so as far as I'm told, everyone was confident it was a "given". Note that this gun ALSO went to teague for re-chocking and they didn't flag a problem either, and they must know what they are doing...

Thus the story so far. It was not "reckless", as far as I can see, it was an accident. It was an accident that makes me beleive there migth have been a defect that *might* have shown with normal/heavy lead loads in the future, so I'm quite glad this occured on a bench instead.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, buze said:

I was going to thank @JohnfromUK for questioning very nicely and positively the motives, but then again another "Pigeonwatch Special Needs" lands with both feet in the soup just afterward ruining the rather nice discussion so far.

@JohnfromUK I went to the shop with one particular need: One game gun, SxS, steel proof, fitted. I want something for small game AND ducks geese on occasion. This particular gun did fit the bill even a bit better than I expected, as it has 30", round action, self opening etc etc.

The guys at the shop (It's Sportarms, with multiple branches and gunsmith on the payroll) having measured the barrels, they declared THIS could be reopened to 1/2 1/2 (my request) and HP proofed. They have done several before (not AYA), so as far as I'm told, everyone was confident it was a "given". Note that this gun ALSO went to teague for re-chocking and they didn't flag a problem either, and they must know what they are doing...

Thus the story so far. It was not "reckless", as far as I can see, it was an accident. It was an accident that makes me beleive there migth have been a defect that *might* have shown with normal/heavy lead loads in the future, so I'm quite glad this occured on a bench instead.

My sincere apologies if I have led the discussion in a negative direction.  I had no intention of ruining a nice discussion (and I agree it has been useful and has caused me to think and do research).  Nor am I questioning your desire to have a steel proofed gun, and you took the very sensible move of having the supplier of the chosen gun get this done - and they made the decision it was safe to do so.

My personal conclusion is this;

If a gun is to be suitable for 'steel proof', it must pass the HP steel proof requirements.  Such a gun is likely to be heavier and more robustly built, and indeed to shoot the high energy HP loads, I suspect the shooter (or at least his shoulder) would be glad of extra weight in the gun.  But for me - such a gun would not be my choice of game gun (as a No 1 in fact IS).  Personally (and it is only a personal view) I don't believe a single gun can fill the role of a normal/light(ish) game gun AND a HP proofed wildfowl gun.

 - Normal game and standard steel for the occasional duck etc, Yes (at about 6 1/2 to 7 lbs)

 - Heavy duty/high bird gun and HP steel gun, Yes, (probably at say 7 1/2 to 8+ lbs)

Both?  No - not in a single gun (in my view)

Once again - my apologies for any upset I may have caused

[buze]

@JohnfromUK really no need to appologise at all, your questioning is perfectly legitimate and was very nicely put as well, which is much appreciated. Thank you for that, I think this forum could do with a lot more of civility.

I wouldn't think i would want to put /super/ heavy load thru that fabled "one game gun" but since I had been 'caught short' with my damascus hammer gun on a day where quite a few lovely malards showed up and all I could do was stare and wave at them, I *wished* I had a slightly beefier gun for that sort of circumstances. 

Perhaps if that AYA #1 had been "my" gun for a while, I would have questioned a hell of a lot more the idea of having it reproofed, and yes, perhaps as everyone seems to say, I would have declared it "a bit too ligth for that" but at that time, it was not (yet) my gun, and I only had shot a few clays with it, all I could really do was trust the "experts". 

Also, my experience (not /extensive/ TBH) of "normal" steel load is underwelming. The time I picked up a duck that had been solidly broadsided, but was still alive a good 20 minutes later once we finally found her, having traveled considerable distance in a lot of pain and was going to die slowly there afterward, I was not impressed at all. Call me a softy!

Thus my requirement of "HP" because since then, I've been shooting these RC3's in 32g #3s and they've been dropping ducks/geese *solid*.

Luckily, perhaps I'll get the best of both world with a new set of barrels, proofed from the factory. I'll update the thread once I know a bit more. I'll also post anything else found about the failed barrels, in the interest of the nice few people on this threads who can write more than a rude one liner 😉

 

[Old farrier]

34 minutes ago, buze said:

I was going to thank @JohnfromUK for questioning very nicely and positively the motives, but then again another "Pigeonwatch Special Needs" lands with both feet in the soup just afterward ruining the rather nice discussion so far.

@JohnfromUK I went to the shop with one particular need: One game gun, SxS, steel proof, fitted. I want something for small game AND ducks geese on occasion. This particular gun did fit the bill even a bit better than I expected, as it has 30", round action, self opening etc etc.

The guys at the shop (It's Sportarms, with multiple branches and gunsmith on the payroll) having measured the barrels, they declared THIS could be reopened to 1/2 1/2 (my request) and HP proofed. They have done several before (not AYA), so as far as I'm told, everyone was confident it was a "given". Note that this gun ALSO went to teague for re-chocking and they didn't flag a problem either, and they must know what they are doing...

Thus the story so far. It was not "reckless", as far as I can see, it was an accident. It was an accident that makes me beleive there migth have been a defect that *might* have shown with normal/heavy lead loads in the future, so I'm quite glad this occured on a bench instead.

I’ve used there Dorchester branch many times and found them a very honest and obliging firm one I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend 

if I may ask your no1 was it built on the monoblock system or the other method where the barrel is almost sleeved into the breech 

iv a aya that I was thinking about opening up and going for the hp rep roof myself and now thanks to your experience I’m in a bit of a turmoil as to what to do 

many thanks for your honest post it’s most informative 

all the best 

of 

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, buze said:

Thank you for that,

And thank you for your kind remarks in the first paragraph.

I can add a bit more (I hope positivity!).  I have a No 1 and love it - it is my 'go to' gun and was bought (second hand) because I needed something 2 3/4 chambers (my English guns are only 2 1/2).  The No 1 is a very nice 'English style' and as such light and fast handling,  but it isn't ideal for heavy loads for that reason.  You did exactly the sensible thing in trusting the supplier and getting them to 'do the work' at their risk. 

I have another AyA which has a 'history' including a second set of barrels which I will explain as best I know the story;

My gun was made with 28" barrels, proofed for normal 900 bar 2 3/4" and it on a fairly 'beefy' action (compared to the No 1).  It was kept originally in Spain by the factory.  It later came to the UK and at some stage a then owner decided that he wanted more 'uummph' and ordered (from AyA) a set of 30" barrels choked full and even more full, 2 3/4 chambered but proofed for 1200 bar.  These were to be for 'high pheasants' and this was done circa late 1980s.  At some stage the original 28" barrels were opened to 1/4 choke in both.

The new barrels were finally fitted to the gun in the UK and the action and new barrels proofed in Birmingham at 1200 bar.  A leather case was also made in Birmingham to take the whole set.  Unfortunately, well before my ownership, and I don't know how long it all took (or what it cost).

So I now have a gun with two sets of proof marks, Spanish at 900 bar on the 28" barrels, English (B'ham) at 1200 bar on the 30" barrels and both sets of marks on the action.  Note that even at 1200 bar, that is not as high as the fleur de lis requirement.

I actually far prefer the No 1 ........