Just a thought...plastic wads

[CharlieT]

1 hour ago, cookoff013 said:

There are 2 issues here. Harvesting wildfowl with lead shot, and shooting over wetland. How is a lake not wetland? Please inform us all what "wetland" is and whether a lake / pond/ body of water is not wetland? 

If you read the actual legislation, how is anyone supposed to discharge any lead shot via a shotgun in the air and get detected?.

If a pigeon flies in circles over a pond. It is illegal to shoot it / near it with lead. Because it is illegal to use a shotgun with lead shells at or below a body of water. Regardless if it is wildfowl or not. Just read the legislation. Not just the shooting of wildfowl, but the discharge of lead pellets on or over a body of water. The law is 2 parts. The wildfowl that needs nontoxic shot and the place where nontoxic shot should be used.

With the interpretation it would be quite legal to pour billions of tons of lead in a pond as long as there is a clay launcher near it!

 

I'm sorry my friend, but you are completely wrong.

Don't assume, please read and more importantly understand the legislation.

I have several ponds on the farm which have gun pegs along them, therefore permitting guns to fire over the lakes. All perfectly legal, above board and within the legislation for England. Do you really think I would risk clients breaking the law and being prosecuted?

[sako751sg]

2 hours ago, cookoff013 said:

There are 2 issues here. Harvesting wildfowl with lead shot, and shooting over wetland. How is a lake not wetland? Please inform us all what "wetland" is and whether a lake / pond/ body of water is not wetland? 

If you read the actual legislation, how is anyone supposed to discharge any lead shot via a shotgun in the air and get detected?.

If a pigeon flies in circles over a pond. It is illegal to shoot it / near it with lead. Because it is illegal to use a shotgun with lead shells at or below a body of water. Regardless if it is wildfowl or not. Just read the legislation. Not just the shooting of wildfowl, but the discharge of lead pellets on or over a body of water. The law is 2 parts. The wildfowl that needs nontoxic shot and the place where nontoxic shot should be used.

With the interpretation it would be quite legal to pour billions of tons of lead in a pond as long as there is a clay launcher near it!

 

Correct,for Scotland,wrong,for England.

[motty]

49 minutes ago, sako751sg said:

Correct,for Scotland,wrong,for England.

Precisely.

[ClemFandango]

7 hours ago, sako751sg said:

Correct,for Scotland,wrong,for England.

yup. 

[ClemFandango]

9 hours ago, anser2 said:

Do a check on this site. I spent hours digging them out a few years ago and provided links. 

I was very sceptical when the stuff about lead shot surfaced years ago. 

Unfortunately. You are correct, the evidence against lead shot in the environment is extremely strong.

Most recently this research on lead poisoning in Red kites.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/6498805_Lead_contamination_and_associated_disease_in_captive_and_reintroduced_red_kites_Milvus_milvus_in_England/amp

[panoma1]

13 hours ago, anser2 said:

Do a check on this site. I spent hours digging them out a few years ago and provided links. 

You are making the statements, I have called on you to substantiate them, not pass the buck onto me to find answers myself!

Also you haven't answered the question I asked of you in the second paragraph of my posting! Re: the governments response to the anti LAG report!

[panoma1]

4 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

I was very sceptical when the stuff about lead shot surfaced years ago. 

Unfortunately. You are correct, the evidence against lead shot in the environment is extremely strong.

Most recently this research on lead poisoning in Red kites.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/6498805_Lead_contamination_and_associated_disease_in_captive_and_reintroduced_red_kites_Milvus_milvus_in_England/amp

I see Debbie Payne from the WWT is credited as involved in the above, she was apparently a co author with the RSPB of the report (it may even be this one?) that started the witch hunt on lead shot several years ago, which led the government to initiate an investigation via their Lead Ammunition Group (LAG) which composed of 'stakeholders' after several years during which the shooting interests resigned from the group, citing bias by the chair (the former CEO of BASC!) a one sided report was then produced by the chair and the anti lead side, and presented to the government.........the government subsequently declined to accept their findings!

Rumour has it that a significant number of Red Kites and other raptors died, in I think the north east? It was claimed from lead poisoning! These birds were being regularly fed by a protectionist body, A rumour subsequently surfaced that these birds died from being fed contaminated meat.......the RSPB et al all went very quiet!

Unless any reports such as the one above are composed using scientific methods/evidence and are independently peer reviewed......I wouldn't believe a word of it!

The article in the link is dated April 2007! It would have been evaluated and most probably used by LAG in their final report.......which was subsequently rejected by the government!

Edited May 6, 2018 by panoma1
More info

[Scully]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

I see Debbie Payne from the WWT is credited as involved in the above, she was apparently a co author with the RSPB of the report (it may even be this one?) that started the witch hunt on lead shot several years ago, which led the government to initiate an investigation via their Lead Ammunition Group (LAG) which composed of 'stakeholders' after several years during which the shooting interests resigned from the group, citing bias by the chair (the former CEO of BASC!) a one sided report was then produced by the chair and the anti lead side, and presented to the government.........the government subsequently declined to accept their findings!

Rumour has it that a significant number of Red Kites and other raptors died, in I think the north east? It was claimed from lead poisoning! These birds were being regularly fed by a protectionist body, A rumour subsequently surfaced that these birds died from being fed contaminated meat.......the RSPB et al all went very quiet!

Unless any reports such as the one above are composed using scientific methods/evidence and are independently peer reviewed......I wouldn't believe a word of it!

The article in the link is dated April 2007! It would have been evaluated and most probably used by LAG in their final report.......which was subsequently rejected by the government!

This.

We debated this years ago. Debbie Payne, who is far from being an unbiased source, was attributed with ( unless I'm mistaken ) making the claim ( amongst others ) that pregnant women shouldn't eat game meat lest their offspring be exposed to toxic lead. I think I'm right in stating that she forgot to mention that any pregnant mothers would have to exist on an extremely high game diet containing lead shot for an extended period before it had any detrimental effect. She also neglected to inform anyone that their is naturally occurring lead present in whey proteins which are contained in powdered baby milks, cereals, potatoes and chocolate. 

Some of the tests conducted on wildfowl to prove lead toxicity killed such creatures, consisted of force feeding lead ( by direct insertion into the gizzards ) to captive wildfowl. 

We can debate and go round in never decreasing circles all day regarding lead and its toxicity, which no one is denying, but it's been done. I'm now concerned with there being an alternative to plastic wads capable of handling steel shot. It seems there is. 

[panoma1]

4 hours ago, Scully said:

This.

We debated this years ago. Debbie Payne, who is far from being an unbiased source, was attributed with ( unless I'm mistaken ) making the claim ( amongst others ) that pregnant women shouldn't eat game meat lest their offspring be exposed to toxic lead. I think I'm right in stating that she forgot to mention that any pregnant mothers would have to exist on an extremely high game diet containing lead shot for an extended period before it had any detrimental effect. She also neglected to inform anyone that their is naturally occurring lead present in whey proteins which are contained in powdered baby milks, cereals, potatoes and chocolate. 

Some of the tests conducted on wildfowl to prove lead toxicity killed such creatures, consisted of force feeding lead ( by direct insertion into the gizzards ) to captive wildfowl. 

We can debate and go round in never decreasing circles all day regarding lead and its toxicity, which no one is denying, but it's been done. I'm now concerned with there being an alternative to plastic wads capable of handling steel shot. It seems there is. 

Yes, No one can really deny that lead is toxic! But many everyday foods such as beer and potatoes also contain lead! The protectionist anti shooting lobby mislead by omission and over egged their claims as to the extent lead was damaging to human health............and because of their own bias, the government saw through their dishonest unscientific campaign!....dishonest because their attempt to ban lead shot was not really about concearn for wildlife.........but to damage shooting!

As opposed to their spurious 'conservation ' grounds, this side of the arguement (the alleged detriment to human health) was seen by the anti shooting lobby, as an opportunity to bolster their weak 'conservation' argument, in their push to damage shooting by attempting to secure a total ban on lead shot.

The lead shot question will reappear at some stage, the protectionist antis will not let it rest! So it is useful to keep those new to the sport updated as to the desperate, dishonest methods our enemies are prepared to use in order to inflict damage on our sport!

Edited May 6, 2018 by panoma1

[anser2]

4 hours ago, panoma1 said:

You are making the statements, I have called on you to substantiate them, not pass the buck onto me to find answers myself!

Also you haven't answered the question I asked of you in the second paragraph of my posting! Re: the governments response to the anti LAG report!

As its clear, you do not believe anything that you do not see with your own eyes I suggest you do an experiment yourself. Get your group of mallard and allow them access to small amounts to lead pellets ( do not force feed them ) and see how many you have alive. I spent hours , no more like days gathering dozen papers on lead poisoning in birds and posted the links on here . So if you cant be bothered to look for them that is your loss as I am not going to run through that again. As for the LAG I have never read their report or quoted from it. The whole report from start to finish was at fault with a bias input from the WWT and closed ears from the shooting community. Doomed before it even started. To compaire, the small amounts of lead found in potatoes with the amount of lead found in lead pellets is just plain stuped.

 

Its a simple fact lead shot poisons birds and I challenge you to prove that wrong !!!!!

Edited May 6, 2018 by anser2

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, anser2 said:

As its clear, you do not believe anything that you do not see with your own eyes I suggest you do an experiment yourself. Get your group of mallard and allow them access to small amounts to lead pellets ( do not force feed them ) and see how many you have alive. I spent hours , no more like days gathering dozen papers on lead poisoning in birds and posted the links on here . So if you cant be bothered to look for them that is your loss as I am not going to run through that again. As for the LAG I have never read their report or quoted from it. The whole report from start to finish was at fault with a bias input from the WWT and closed ears from the shooting community. Doomed before it even started. To compaire, the small amounts of lead found in potatoes with the amount of lead found in lead pellets is just plain stuped.

 

Its a simple fact lead shot poisons birds and I challenge you to prove that wrong !!!!!

You are the one making claims not me! Do you seriously expect me to do the research in order to try to prove your claims?

As regards the quantity of lead in potatoes, you have clearly misunderstood! It had nothing to do with Ducks ingesting lead pellets, that is a separate issue! It was heavily publicised throughout the media that the residue of lead in a shot duck (not the shot pellets!) after preparation and cooking was less generally, than that contained in beer or potatoes!.........Blowing away the protectionist antis claims that because of lead toxicity, it was dangerous for anyone to eat too much game meat and especially dangerous to an unborn child if the pregnant women were to eat game meat!..............blatant scare tactics that the government agencies saw through!

Edited May 6, 2018 by panoma1

[islandgun]

Theres nothing good about lead if your a duck,  either taken orally in having it injected at 1400 fps

[Scully]

2 hours ago, anser2 said:

 

 

Its a simple fact lead shot poisons birds and I challenge you to prove that wrong !!!!!

I can't understand why this is an issue! Lead poisons anything living if taken in big enough quantities...is anyone disputing this? I think the only thing which was disputed was some of the claims ( clearly deliberately exaggerated and misleading ) made regarding lead shot and the methods of conducting tests and the findings of those tests dishonestly represented to the general public and indeed parliament. 

Plastic wads are detrimental to all manner of beasts as far as I'm aware, and the environment. Lead naturally occurs in the earth,  plastic does not. 

[Stonepark]

If ingested, just about every metal is toxic, with possible exception of gold (you stomach acid is generally not strong enough to cause formation of compounds that can be absorbed) .

Non of the alternatives to lead (copper, iron, nickel, zinc, bismuth, tungsten) are generally any better but just take in most cases longer to poison or cause different symptoms.

 

[Fen tiger]

You can dress it up and argue the toss and cherry pick all you like, but lead is toxic and as  long-term is probably better off out of the environment as much as we can practically do it at this stage.

 Viable alternatives to lead shot exist and work well.  This thread was about protective wads for steel shot  that were degradable and environmentally friendly it's rapidly turned into a lead shot  debate, just like any other lead shot debate that has ragged on for the last 20 years this subject is done to death here and everywhere else,  time to just get on with it use steel or heavier alternatives whatever when you need to by law  it's time to move on from lead, healthy debate about practical wadding  is what is needed here..

 

 

  

Edited May 6, 2018 by Fen tiger

[panoma1]

14 hours ago, Fen tiger said:

You can dress it up and argue the toss and cherry pick all you like, but lead is toxic and as  long-term is probably better off out of the environment as much as we can practically do it at this stage.

 Viable alternatives to lead shot exist and work well.  This thread was about protective wads for steel shot  that were degradable and environmentally friendly it's rapidly turned into a lead shot  debate, just like any other lead shot debate that has ragged on for the last 20 years this subject is done to death here and everywhere else,  time to just get on with it use steel or heavier alternatives whatever when you need to by law  it's time to move on from lead, healthy debate about practical wadding  is what is needed here..

 

 

  

Not really! I may be wrong but I read the topic as about environmental pollution, originally in the form of the availability of biodegradable wads for use with steel shot, which I think was answered? 

The debate then quite understandably developed into a comparison between the environmental pollution caused by lead shot and that of plastic wads! I think most people accept that lead shot pollution can damage wildlife and therefore needs to be mitigated, but that can and to an extent has been achieved by legislation. Plastic pollution cannot be mitigated, if not removed, it will continue to kill wildlife and pollute the environment forever!......Something needs to be done! If not voluntarily,  sooner or later, I believe it will be forced on us by legislation.

Biodegradable wads are (or should be!) the future, I have not shot live quarry, nor loaded cartridges with plastic wads for some years!

[Fen tiger]

24 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Not really! I may be wrong but I read the topic as about environmental pollution, originally in the form of the availability of biodegra Plastic pollution cannot be mitigated, if not removed, it will continue to kill wildlife and pollute the environment forever!......Something needs to be done! If not voluntarily,  sooner or later, I believe it will be forced on us by legislation.

And this is why i closed with this comment.

healthy debate about practical wadding  is what is needed here..

 

[Smokersmith]

We generate a lot of potato starch in our process, and have successfully turned it into Golf Balls, plastic bags and ice scrapers.

Not sure if it will work for wads, but I've initiated an internal process to find out ... so that's one positive from the thread ...

along with helping some folks to understand better the lead laws in England and Scotland, and once again establishing that ingested lead is bad for Wildfowl.

Good topic !!

[wymberley]

On 05/05/2018 at 14:18, ClemFandango said:

well ain't that a rummen? Good knowledge. 

Not to mention Steel Shot (Company).

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

We generate a lot of potato starch in our process, and have successfully turned it into Golf Balls, plastic bags and ice scrapers.

Not sure if it will work for wads, but I've initiated an internal process to find out ... so that's one positive from the thread ...

along with helping some folks to understand better the lead laws in England and Scotland, and once again establishing that ingested lead is bad for Wildfowl.

Good topic !!

Good for you. Not knowing anything about potato starch; aren't golf balls, plastic bags and ice scrapers all made from plastic and therefore non- biodegradable? 

[Fen tiger]

26 minutes ago, Scully said:

Good for you. Not knowing anything about potato starch; aren't golf balls, plastic bags and ice scrapers all made from plastic and therefore non- biodegradable? 

The plastic made from potato starch is biodegradable as i understand it,

http://www.rsc.org/Education/Teachers/Resources/Inspirational/resources/3.1.7.pdf

but even biodegradable plastic as its issues environmentally some suggest. 

https://www.letsdoitworld.org/2016/07/biodegradable-plastic-may-even-worse-environment/

Edited May 7, 2018 by Fen tiger

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, Fen tiger said:

The plastic made from potato starch is biodegradable as i understand it, but even biodegradable plastic as its issues environmentally some suggest. 

https://www.letsdoitworld.org/2016/07/biodegradable-plastic-may-even-worse-environment/

Thanks for the link; everyday's a school day. 

[panoma1]

2 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

We generate a lot of potato starch in our process, and have successfully turned it into Golf Balls, plastic bags and ice scrapers.

Not sure if it will work for wads, but I've initiated an internal process to find out ... so that's one positive from the thread ...

along with helping some folks to understand better the lead laws in England and Scotland, and once again establishing that ingested lead is bad for Wildfowl.

Good topic !!

That's interesting! The gas seal element in a wad made from potato starch may prove testing......but a shot Cup? Hmmmmmmm!

I know nothing about the process of extracting starch from spuds, even less about its conversion into a suitable material (strength wise and resistance to perforation wise) from which to make steel safe wads and/or shotcups. But it could be a winner? 

If successful you should think about patenting it!

[Brodie]

In the interests of reducing plastic waste do we all use fibre wads for clay shooting?

 

[Fen tiger]

As said earlier here anything can cause harm to some extent, all i think shooting can do is try and be as responsible as we can be and try to meet criteria drawn up by legislation as it brought into force.

 Card cups look the best option currently available, and seem to offer the best long term avoidance from  any potential associated environmental  complications.  But having said all that i am sure  some geek some where will find an issue .