Effectiveness of fibre wadded cartridges at distance

[Stonepark]

Having manually calculated the energy of pellets at distance, with larger shot such as bb's out to 100 yards, i also have the KPY Ballistics Software and at 70 yards no3 lead english is somewhere between 1.4ftlbs or 1.5ftlbs between my calculations and the software respectively.

[motty]

3 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Having manually calculated the energy of pellets at distance, with larger shot such as bb's out to 100 yards, i also have the KPY Ballistics Software and at 70 yards no3 lead english is somewhere between 1.4ftlbs or 1.5ftlbs between my calculations and the software respectively.

Sounds pretty realistic.

This is an interesting thread. Funny how many people on this forum didn't appear to bat an eyelid when Mr Digweed was shown on Fieldsports Britain shooting pigeons at a claimed 100 yards.

[Ultrastu]

Just now, motty said:

Wrong again! If two pellets of the same energy arrive on target, the smallest should penetrate more. This is one of the reasons I like high density shot for geese.

Wrong wrong wrong motty .

You have it all wrong .

Lets break it down .

2 lead pellets ok .

Different sizes  = different weights lets say 3 mm   and 2.6mm  - so number 4 and no 6 shot. Fired at 1350 fps using a bc of 0.023 gs drag law  the no6 at 30 yds would have 2 fpe and be going 750 fps .the no 4 using the same bc (for simplicity , as it wont differ much) to have 2 fpe at 30 yds it would have to be going at 600 fps .

Penetration -

Now the no4 has 65%  more mass and a lot more momentum than the no6. It also has the advantage of slower velocity (which helps with penetration ) but a disadvantage of a greater surface area .15 % bigger .

The 2 factors it has in its favour (for increased penetration ) mass 65 % , and lower velocity 25% less  .out weight the 1 advantage the no6 pellet has which is to be 15 % smaller in size .

Hence the heavier slower no4 pellet penetrates deeper into the medium .

This is the same for ALL ballistics of the same shape and anatomy .

 

[Ultrastu]

Ps .for the 2.6 grn no 4 to arrive at 30 yds with the same 2 fpe energy as the no 6 shot it would have to be fired at 1050 fps so almost sub sonic velocities. Compared to the 1350 fps of the no 6.

[yickdaz]

52 minutes ago, motty said:

Sounds pretty realistic.

This is an interesting thread. Funny how many people on this forum didn't appear to bat an eyelid when Mr Digweed was shown on Fieldsports Britain shooting pigeons at a claimed 100 yards.

I did lol

[Ultrastu]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

All I can also say is that I'm getting a strong sense of deja vu in as much as I'm sure we've seen silly BC figures from Chair gun before on here. The .014 that you used earlier is far too high and the .023 for No6 lead is positively stratospheric.

Hi i agree these bc s are a bit too high but they are consistent with gamebores figures for retained velocites ad different ranges .

Dont confuse the different drag laws 

Gs is for round ball shapes .

Ga for airgun pellets 

Ra4  for .22 lr 

Etc .

It makes a big difference to retained energy values .

Ps do people realise that bc isnt a constant .it changes with velocity and distance you measure it over .? And as such is a guide at best .especially when it comes to light weight mostly deformed shot gun pellets .

[yickdaz]

10 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Wrong wrong wrong motty .

You have it all wrong .

Lets break it down .

2 lead pellets ok .

Different sizes  = different weights lets say 3 mm   and 2.6mm  - so number 4 and no 6 shot. Fired at 1350 fps using a bc of 0.023 gs drag law  the no6 at 30 yds would have 2 fpe and be going 750 fps .the no 4 using the same bc (for simplicity , as it wont differ much) to have 2 fpe at 30 yds it would have to be going at 600 fps .

Penetration -

Now the no4 has 65%  more mass and a lot more momentum than the no6. It also has the advantage of slower velocity (which helps with penetration ) but a disadvantage of a greater surface area .15 % bigger .

The 2 factors it has in its favour (for increased penetration ) mass 65 % , and lower velocity 25% less  .out weight the 1 advantage the no6 pellet has which is to be 15 % smaller in size .

Hence the heavier slower no4 pellet penetrates deeper into the medium .

This is the same for ALL ballistics of the same shape and anatomy .

 

bud a lot of balony if you can put all that into practice you are a world beater

[Ultrastu]

Just now, yickdaz said:

bud a lot of balony if you can put all that into practice you are a world beater

Not balony .you just need to understand it .

I thought i put it in layman's terms ? 😂

Edited October 17, 2018 by Ultrastu

[yickdaz]

1 minute ago, Ultrastu said:

Not balony .you just need to understand it .

ok 

3 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Not balony .you just need to understand it .

I thought i put it in layman's terms ? 😂

and edited it 

 

[Hamster]

8 hours ago, motty said:

Sounds pretty realistic.

This is an interesting thread. Funny how many people on this forum didn't appear to bat an eyelid when Mr Digweed was shown on Fieldsports Britain shooting pigeons at a claimed 100 yards.

I did, 100 REAL yard birds are flukes, 70 yard pigeon for the likes of him are a doable thing with the right ammo and density. To be fair he has written an article where he states 70-75 yards as max range for pheasants. I have also had spats with well known clay shooters on FB who reckon they kill 90 yard pheasants, at least he admitted he uses 50g no.3 shells 😐  .

It would be nice if anyone with access to no. 4 shot and a few empty coke cans could be bothered to fire at them from 70 yards and report back, regardless of ft lbs I reckon they'd go through both sides. We know no.5 shot will break clays at 100 yards or more. 

[Smokersmith]

From patterning No. 4 (36g) at 60 yards, I'll tell you that there's no guarantee you'll actually hit a coke can when in the middle of the pattern.

When the OP does his pattern testing he'll see that pattern is the limiting factor, not penetration.

The challenges on 70 yard pheasants are putting the pattern in the right place, then having a cartridge/choke combo that can deliver an 'effective' pattern .. which will involve luck as it's rare in normal game shells.

Spectacular shots can and do occur, but not without luck in most cases.

[Robertt]

I don't  think the Picker Ups will be impressed with this thread !

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

100% Ditchy ..one wonders just how many pricked injured birds fly on apparently missed to suffer a slow painful death.

The thing is nobody has taken account of how much the shot has dropped at 70 yds. Irrespective of considerations of pattern or retained energy. 

[figgy]

5 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The thing is nobody has taken account of how much the shot has dropped at 70 yds. Irrespective of considerations of pattern or retained energy. 

As most shotguns throw the pattern high it should be bang on at distance.

[stuartyboy]

Some very interesting ballistic info regarding different shot size and points of view.

But!!!! These are living creatures. Any shot taken at excessive range is cruel and gives  antis fuel. We all acknowledge that you can never guarantee an instantaneous kill when using shotgun or rifle, but you have to maximise the likelihood of getting that clean kill. To me, simplistically, that means being within a suitable range and using appropriate sized shot or bullet. If you want long range targets for a shotgun, stick to clays. 

I can understand wanting sporting shots, but 70 yards for pheasants or 100 yards for pigeons?!? No chance

[wymberley]

8 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Wrong wrong wrong motty .

You have it all wrong .

Lets break it down .

2 lead pellets ok .

Different sizes  = different weights lets say 3 mm   and 2.6mm  - so number 4 and no 6 shot. Fired at 1350 fps using a bc of 0.023 gs drag law  the no6 at 30 yds would have 2 fpe and be going 750 fps .the no 4 using the same bc (for simplicity , as it wont differ much) to have 2 fpe at 30 yds it would have to be going at 600 fps .

Penetration -

Now the no4 has 65%  more mass and a lot more momentum than the no6. It also has the advantage of slower velocity (which helps with penetration ) but a disadvantage of a greater surface area .15 % bigger .

The 2 factors it has in its favour (for increased penetration ) mass 65 % , and lower velocity 25% less  .out weight the 1 advantage the no6 pellet has which is to be 15 % smaller in size .

Hence the heavier slower no4 pellet penetrates deeper into the medium .

This is the same for ALL ballistics of the same shape and anatomy .

 

With regard to flesh and blood, the nearest thing for research purposes we have is 20% ballistic gelatin. The formula for penetration (P) is P = SUT. Which of these three factors relates to energy?

 

3 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

Some very interesting ballistic info regarding different shot size and points of view.

But!!!! These are living creatures. Any shot taken at excessive range is cruel and gives  antis fuel. We all acknowledge that you can never guarantee an instantaneous kill when using shotgun or rifle, but you have to maximise the likelihood of getting that clean kill. To me, simplistically, that means being within a suitable range and using appropriate sized shot or bullet. If you want long range targets for a shotgun, stick to clays. 

I can understand wanting sporting shots, but 70 yards for pheasants or 100 yards for pigeons?!? No chance

"The maximum effective range of a gun in relation to a given kind of game is the greatest distance at which it is reasonably certain that a clean kill will be made by a truly aimed shot."

Gough Thomas, Shotguns and Cartridges, Pub'd 1963

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Smokersmith said:

From patterning No. 4 (36g) at 60 yards, I'll tell you that there's no guarantee you'll actually hit a coke can when in the middle of the pattern.

When the OP does his pattern testing he'll see that pattern is the limiting factor, not penetration.

The challenges on 70 yard pheasants are putting the pattern in the right place, then having a cartridge/choke combo that can deliver an 'effective' pattern .. which will involve luck as it's rare in normal game shells.

Spectacular shots can and do occur, but not without luck in most cases.

Exactly, hence why I said can(s), you'd have to have at least a dozen and place them one on top of the other and fire several shots to make sure enough have lucked into the centre of a can or two to see what kind of damage they do. I have always maintained that beyond 60 (and most definitely 70 yards), kills are random and dependant on luck as much as skill. 

A few years ago I placed an opened out 250 shell cardboard at 90 yards and fired several 7.5 clay loads at it, despite allowing a bit of holdover I could find barely any dents never mind holes.

[motty]

9 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Wrong wrong wrong motty .

You have it all wrong .

Lets break it down .

2 lead pellets ok .

Different sizes  = different weights lets say 3 mm   and 2.6mm  - so number 4 and no 6 shot. Fired at 1350 fps using a bc of 0.023 gs drag law  the no6 at 30 yds would have 2 fpe and be going 750 fps .the no 4 using the same bc (for simplicity , as it wont differ much) to have 2 fpe at 30 yds it would have to be going at 600 fps .

Penetration -

Now the no4 has 65%  more mass and a lot more momentum than the no6. It also has the advantage of slower velocity (which helps with penetration ) but a disadvantage of a greater surface area .15 % bigger .

The 2 factors it has in its favour (for increased penetration ) mass 65 % , and lower velocity 25% less  .out weight the 1 advantage the no6 pellet has which is to be 15 % smaller in size .

Hence the heavier slower no4 pellet penetrates deeper into the medium .

This is the same for ALL ballistics of the same shape and anatomy .

 

How does a slower velocity help with penetration?

[Farmboy91]

8 minutes ago, motty said:

How does a slower velocity help with penetration?

This. 

Surely its accepted that higher volocity is more likely to penetrant further if not pass all the way through, I appreciate we're not talking about 'normal' distances here. I'm only going on the basic differences between say 45.acp and 9mm parabellum, fair enough they are pistol calibers but surely the same basics apply? Feel free to shoot me down in flames if that's wrong. 

[Hamster]

This is what 5.5 shot size will do at 55 yards, it's reasonable to assume no. 4 shot will arrive with much more energy at that distance, it will very possibly do as much damage at 70 yards : 

Penetration is not the problem but density. 

 

[Ultrastu]

34 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

This. 

Surely its accepted that higher volocity is more likely to penetrant further if not pass all the way through, I appreciate we're not talking about 'normal' distances here. I'm only going on the basic differences between say 45.acp and 9mm parabellum, fair enough they are pistol calibers but surely the same basics apply? Feel free to shoot me down in flames if that's wrong. 

We had this debate a couple of months ago ......

But basically .give a projectile a low bc and a high  velocity and it will penetrate less than a high bc at lower velocity .

There are loads of utube vids confirming this over and over again .

 

[Stonepark]

14 minutes ago, Hamster said:

This is what 5.5 shot size will do at 55 yards, it's reasonable to assume no. 4 shot will arrive with much more energy at that distance, it will very possibly do as much damage at 70 yards : 

Penetration is not the problem but density. 

 

By my tables no 5.5 at 55 yards lands with  0.95ftlbs, whilst at 70 yards no4 lands with  1.05ftlbs and no3 with 1.4ftlbs.

Penetration into gel is 0.95, 0.99 & 1.2 inches respectively.

At 70 yard no4, at full choke and 50g load, you have only 34 pellets in the 30 inch pattern and a pattern knock down power of 38ftlbs. Even if miraculously this were doubled (i. e. 6% extra hard shot to increase numbers of non-distorted shot as the rate of loss of pellets from pattern rapidly decreases to zero after 60 yards) , the energy of the pattern (76ftlbs) is still only half of that required (150ftlbs).

 

At 40 yards no7 lands with 0.9ftlbs and 1 inch penetration at half choke and a 1oz load should result in 201 pellets in 30 inch circle and therefore pattern knock down power of 181ftlbs.

Taking my 4 bore example, 4oz of no3 and full choke at 70 yards results in 30 circle containing  112 pellets at 1.4ftlbs to give a pattern knockdown power of 157ftlbs.

Going traditional, 32g no6 full choke at 50 yards has 148 pellets in 30inch at 1.01ftlbs, shotgun pattern knockdown power of 149ftlbs.

 

My personal 410 loading of 21g no 7ish at 35yards 1/4 choke has pellets landing at 1.2ftlbs, 163 pellets in 30inch circle and pattern knock down of 196ftlbs and which still has 138ftlbs at 40 yards (1ftlb and 138 pellets) .

The smallest loading out there the 9g load in a 410 in no9 at 25 yards, cyl choke lands with 0.9ftlbs and 126 pellets for a pattern knock down power of 113ftlbs.

There is no reason to shoot at a 70 yard pheasant shooting with a 12bore unless you can comprenensively and physically demonstrate that the gun cartridge combination can meet the minimum of 150ftlbs pattern for reliably killing game.

 

I suspect no one will be able to meet this requirement with lead shot.

 

[motty]

3 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

We had this debate a couple of months ago ......

But basically .give a projectile a low bc and a high  velocity and it will penetrate less than a high bc at lower velocity .

There are loads of utube vids confirming this over and over again .

 

No, you said lower velocity aids penetration.

Edited October 18, 2018 by motty

[yickdaz]

44 minutes ago, motty said:

No, you said lower velocity aida penetration.

I don't see how that works either something going slower will cause more damage than something going fast the law of physics  would say otherwise

[Farmboy91]

I won't pretend I know the ins and outs of fpe etc cause I don't lol I was more thinking the basic ballistics of that a slower cartridge will throw the better pattern, and if that cartridge is full of no. 3/4 you have better kentic energy ie more knock down power, than with a no. 6 so your negating some of what you would have lost if you had used smaller shot. 

Realisticly I wouldnt dream of taking on a pheasant at 70yrds nor a pigeon at 100,i dont doubt there are some excellent shots on here but for the average shot is it really feasible?