Fibre wad card seal and shot cup pattern experience.

[Fen tiger]

I know we can still use plastic wads for wildfowling with steel and other shot types, but i want to try and get some developed steel And HW loads in fibre wads for fowling before and legislation comes or if it ever does come.  .

  Not worked out card seal wad yet but will for a start use plas gas seals under a felt column and purchased fiber card cup, i know it wont be exactly the same performance as card seal but its a start on a project i want to try. i have testing equipment and some data from a Scandinavian reloading site to begin with.

 So the crux of this thread is to gain any info others have found surrounding card cup fiber colum loads with non tox any GA .

  What did you feel it patterned like compared to Plas bucket wads, any problems encountered and hints on best wad column layout , all info would be appreciated.

 

[Stonepark]

The over powder card seal (unless your barrel is very over bored) will hold almost as well as a plastic seal with a fibre felt space wad and shot cup in front of it, any gases have a lot to get past.

 

 

[Fen tiger]

12 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

The over powder card seal (unless your barrel is very over bored) will hold almost as well as a plastic seal with a fibre felt space wad and shot cup in front of it, any gases have a lot to get past.

 

 

Thank you for info thats  what i thought but not got a way to make seals it moment but the card seal was certainly what i was aiming to use eventually. . Any pictures of card seal tooling i can make almost anything but need to see tools or designs  first.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Fen tiger

[Old farrier]

I’ve got a card seal maker for my 10 bores 

gent in Scotland makes them 

also if you’re  able to source some older Winchester western fibre cartridges they had a card gas seal maybe able to get the dimensions you need 

[Dave at kelton]

I am certain the over powder wad in the old Winchester xxx was an inverted cardboard cup. This was a cracking cartridge so if I am right it certainly works. I tried making some using an oversize card wad about an extra half inch diameter and forcing through a mandril but struggled not to have them break up. I wanted to use them in my 8 bore with felt and the traditional cardboard shot cup. Gave up and used a plastic driving wad in the end by cutting the Petals off a plastic gulandi wad.

3 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I’ve got a card seal maker for my 10 bores 

gent in Scotland makes them 

also if you’re  able to source some older Winchester western fibre cartridges they had a card gas seal maybe able to get the dimensions you need 

It is probably Graham Deakin and will ask next time I see him.

[panoma1]

47 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

I am certain the over powder wad in the old Winchester xxx was an inverted cardboard cup. This was a cracking cartridge so if I am right it certainly works. I tried making some using an oversize card wad about an extra half inch diameter and forcing through a mandril but struggled not to have them break up. I wanted to use them in my 8 bore with felt and the traditional cardboard shot cup. Gave up and used a plastic driving wad in the end by cutting the Petals off a plastic gulandi wad.

It is probably Graham Deakin and will ask next time I see him.

I agree, It would be Graham Deakin Dave!

I use Winchester xxx type card inverted "bottle top" O/P wads in my 8 bore loads! I can confirm, they work very well!

[Diss4111]

I have been loading fibre shot cup steel cartridges this season and used them exclusively on the saltings and my flight pond. I have been using a 4mm overpowder card underneath the shotcup. This is what Gamebore do in their Silver Steel cartridges which are very good up to sensible ranges. I have a 24 gram load and a 32 gram load which both perform well. I am waiting for some powder so I can explore a 28 gram load.

[Big Mat]

When I asked clay game, they said over powder card would be sufficient.

I still have some fibre shot cups for 10 bore left so I may load some to try 

[Smokersmith]

This is an interesting thread ...

I'll not be buying anymore plastic wads for fowling, and will transition to the cups for 10 and 12 bore once they're gone.

So ... all feedback, and learning will be appreciated

 

[islandgun]

Ive just tried some fibre shot cups with steel, seem to pattern/penetrate Ok, i dont have a chrono so use a next catalogue, the thing i did notice was whereas a plastic wad will land a good distance away the fibre shredded and landed a few feet away, this was through a SA and 1/2 choke

[muncher]

I found when I did some testing the pattern was quite good ,the problem I had was BBB went through the wad and scored the barrels I have not used them since!

[islandgun]

I used 3's but the impression was flimsy compared with plastic,  Q.  would putting cushioning filler inside the cup effect penetration/speed, or cause shot to stick to said filler and exit as a lump, [excuse ignorance]

[Continental Shooter]

On 04/11/2018 at 20:55, Stonepark said:

The over powder card seal (unless your barrel is very over bored) will hold almost as well as a plastic seal with a fibre felt space wad and shot cup in front of it, any gases have a lot to get past.

 

 

That is impossible and proven as such. Plastic expands with the primer flame, paper will burn. The retention problems are the very same reason why with fiber you need 0.05 g more powder compared to plastic. Now, that might not be a problem with high pressure loads mind you, and might also help with opening up the pattern. Paper cup still sound very fragile for pellets like steel which are very hard, perhaps using mylar wrap or similar will help?

[Stonepark]

42 minutes ago, Continental Shooter said:

That is impossible and proven as such. Plastic expands with the primer flame, paper will burn. The retention problems are the very same reason why with fiber you need 0.05 g more powder compared to plastic. Now, that might not be a problem with high pressure loads mind you, and might also help with opening up the pattern. Paper cup still sound very fragile for pellets like steel which are very hard, perhaps using mylar wrap or similar will help?

 

If the plastic wad has a thin skirt it will help as a seal but all plastic wads with I am familiar are either bore size or 2 thou smaller, and plastic wads do melt when traveling up the barrel (hence plastic fouling) and that skirt is the most vulnerable. Thick Card scorches rather than melts, both suffer from the pressure/powder burn but both can be picked up post firing as neither are normally destroyed.

You are correct (generally) with the fibre wad v's the plastic wad with fibre requiring more powder but you are not really comparing like for like, however when you introduce the cup to the opc/fibre set up, you get a very similar effect to the plastic wad. Both the fibre wad and cup distort on firing, like a plastic wad and also add to the sealing properties due to the shot mass up front.

I have tried to show the forces acting on the set up on the attached drawing, but effectively when fired, the over large over powder card will be flexed  but should still seal and the wad in front will also be compressed and as a result expanded acting as a partial seal and similarly the shot cup will also slightly expanded and also acting as a partial seal and protecting the shot, very similar to a plastic wad.

I would suspect the fibre cups are more than just paper pulp compressed ( maybe they have other linear natural fibres) but their thickness will compensate for their potential pierce-ability as even some plastic wads are pieced on occasion.

 

If I was to list efficiencies, it would be as follows: -

1 - Plastic Wad     ≈   Sandwich  (OPC - fibre wad - opc)  ≈  Fibre Cup (OPC - fibre wad - fibre cup)

2 - OPC - fibre Wad

3 - Fibre Wad

 

[Diss4111]

13 hours ago, muncher said:

I found when I did some testing the pattern was quite good ,the problem I had was BBB went through the wad and scored the barrels I have not used them since!

Larger shot exerts less pressure on the wad than smaller shot, in the same way a stilletto heel exerts a higher pressure on the floor than a training shoe. I have used BB's at 1500FPS with no ill effects

12 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

That is impossible and proven as such. Plastic expands with the primer flame, paper will burn. The retention problems are the very same reason why with fiber you need 0.05 g more powder compared to plastic. Now, that might not be a problem with high pressure loads mind you, and might also help with opening up the pattern. Paper cup still sound very fragile for pellets like steel which are very hard, perhaps using mylar wrap or similar will help?

If you try to push a 4mm over powder card down a back bored barrel with a cleaning rod it takes a lot of effort, there is no issue with one not sealing the gases in.

 

[Guest cookoff013]

10 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 

If the plastic wad has a thin skirt it will help as a seal but all plastic wads with I am familiar are either bore size or 2 thou smaller, and plastic wads do melt when traveling up the barrel (hence plastic fouling) and that skirt is the most vulnerable. Thick Card scorches rather than melts, both suffer from the pressure/powder burn but both can be picked up post firing as neither are normally destroyed.

You are correct (generally) with the fibre wad v's the plastic wad with fibre requiring more powder but you are not really comparing like for like, however when you introduce the cup to the opc/fibre set up, you get a very similar effect to the plastic wad. Both the fibre wad and cup distort on firing, like a plastic wad and also add to the sealing properties due to the shot mass up front.

I have tried to show the forces acting on the set up on the attached drawing, but effectively when fired, the over large over powder card will be flexed  but should still seal and the wad in front will also be compressed and as a result expanded acting as a partial seal and similarly the shot cup will also slightly expanded and also acting as a partial seal and protecting the shot, very similar to a plastic wad.

I would suspect the fibre cups are more than just paper pulp compressed ( maybe they have other linear natural fibres) but their thickness will compensate for their potential pierce-ability as even some plastic wads are pieced on occasion.

 

If I was to list efficiencies, it would be as follows: -

1 - Plastic Wad     ≈   Sandwich  (OPC - fibre wad - opc)  ≈  Fibre Cup (OPC - fibre wad - fibre cup)

2 - OPC - fibre Wad

3 - Fibre Wad

 

Thats a great drawing, but the 12gauge chamber is about 800thou, the forcing cone feeds into the ~.729 barrel.

I also suspect that the wad/ shot setback marks are formed in the chamber, but have no evidence. At 2500ftlbs(hot game load) will distort any fibre wad, 

[panoma1]

25 minutes ago, cookoff013 said:

At 2500ftlbs(hot game load) will distort any fibre wad, 

Especially if the case is short ( for example 2 3/4" or 3") and the chamber is long (for example 3 1/2") plus the forcing cone! in a 12 bore

[Smokersmith]

 

Unfortunately, buffering with PSB sort of goes against the point of moving to the fibre cups

Edited November 8, 2018 by Smokersmith

[motty]

4 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

Larger shot exerts less pressure on the wad than smaller shot, in the same way a stilletto heel exerts a higher pressure on the floor than a training shoe. I have used BB's at 1500FPS with no ill effects

If you try to push a 4mm over powder card down a back bored barrel with a cleaning rod it takes a lot of effort, there is no issue with one not sealing the gases in.

 

I don't think your example is valid. Big shot doesn't fit so nicely in wads as small shot does.

[Diss4111]

34 minutes ago, motty said:

I don't think your example is valid. Big shot doesn't fit so nicely in wads as small shot does.

Larger shot has a larger surface area in contact with the cup, it exerts less pressure on the cup upon firing. its the reason why a point is easier to push through rather than a blunt end or why a sharp knife cuts and a blunt one doesn't. 

 

[Smokersmith]

The point about surface area is valid .. the bit I don't know, is whether smaller shot tends to 'nest' better together as it passes at high speed through a choke, and if bigger shot 'bridges' more often .. then I can imagine why there'd be more pressure with bigger shot in that circumstance.

I guess this 'bridging' phenomena is why choke guidance often states that smaller shot is OK .... but let's not go there!!

Edited November 8, 2018 by Smokersmith

[panoma1]

The point about the "inverted bottletop" type card O/P wad, is that the "Skirt", expands (like opening an umbrella) on its way up the bore, under the pressure created by the (ignition of the powder) gasses, making an excellent gas seal.

[Diss4111]

55 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

The point about surface area is valid .. the bit I don't know, is whether smaller shot tends to 'nest' better together as it passes at high speed through a choke, and if bigger shot 'bridges' more often .. then I can imagine why there'd be more pressure with bigger shot in that circumstance.

I guess this 'bridging' phenomena is why choke guidance often states that smaller shot is OK .... but let's not go there!!

Smaller shot is more fluid, so it moves around more as it passes through the choke, the larger the shot the more chance it could 'JAM'. the shot at the bottom of the shotcup regardless of size would have the same pressure exerted on it for the same payload. The smaller shot would in theory be pushed further into the walls of the wad, plastic or paper.

[Fen tiger]

On 07/11/2018 at 18:49, muncher said:

I found when I did some testing the pattern was quite good ,the problem I had was BBB went through the wad and scored the barrels I have not used them since!

Info like this is what i wanted, out of interest was the holing with 12 bores or tens or bigger? i do not use BBB in 12 bore biggest i go in 12 is BB  yet BBB (4.83mm) is my go to shot size for ten in steel.

 BBB just never seemed to stack in the wads of a 12 bore that well to me and i shy away from using it.

[Fen tiger]

In relation to the pin holing issue could additional internal shot cup wraping prevent this potential problem, and any ideas what could be suitable wrapper material bearing in mind the bio degradable aspect of these loads we are trying to create.