How far will a shotgun kill game.

[welshwarrior]

9 hours ago, Hamster said:

 there are very well understood factors behind the reason why felt/fibre doesn't suit every barrel. 

So the barrel does make a difference as in you own words above “felt/fibre doesn’t suit every barrel”

 

 

[motty]

38 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Cheap cartridges often mean less lead, (that was the point I was making) since the object is to put a dense pattern of lead in the air I can't see how less lead can ever be better than more lead..

I have never noticed less lead in cheaper cartridges.

[wymberley]

This is just going to drag on going nowhere so I have a cunning plan which will enable us to put it to bed for once and for all. I don't suppose there's anyone who works at one of those outdoor activity centres that has a high zip-wire - you know about 90 yards up.

[Vince Green]

11 minutes ago, motty said:

I have never noticed less lead in cheaper cartridges.

I notice you use 28g, I only use 32g and I bet I have to pay more for my cartridges than you do but I have approx. 14% more lead and its worth the extra to me , 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Vince Green

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Here we go, more willy waving!

Motty uses what works for him and so do you. 

8 minutes ago, wymberley said:

This is just going to drag on going nowhere so I have a cunning plan which will enable us to put it to bed for once and for all. I don't suppose there's anyone who works at one of those outdoor activity centres that has a high zip-wire - you know about 90 yards up.

I can get you up on one, do you think you'll need a bullet proof vest or will you take your chances?

[Hamster]

39 minutes ago, welshwarrior said:

So the barrel does make a difference as in you own words above “felt/fibre doesn’t suit every barrel”

 

 

Quoting things out of context (as I'm certain  you are aware) will help nothing. 

Plastic wads make an adequate (and consistent) seal within the vast majority of chamber dimensions all the way through enlarged cones as well as the multitude different choke profiles available on the market. That means that the major impact of what comes to alter or shape the pattern is via the choke and of course the cartridge spec itself.

Therefore it has been found that no "advantage" comes from one bore/chamber size against the other - all or any can be fine tuned to ones liking pretty much 99.9% of the time, besides, even the top 1% in the world can't realistically detect (or be negatively impacted by) the +/- half a choke denomination variation which we know happens from shot to shot, i.e, close enough is good enough. 

The situation is different with felt/fibre wads because achieving that sealing property is not easy throughout the bore size range, some cheaper ones don't seal consistently well even in "perfect" bore dimensions. It has been found that even moderately overbored competition guns such as the 682e can produce erratic patterns, some cluster "balling"  is also inevitable, I have personal experience of this because my own gun will not crush targets the same way with felt or plastic, is there a fibre shell out there that will ? Almost certainly yes there will be some that will seal better. 

 

[motty]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

I notice you use 28g, I only use 32g and I bet I pay more for my cartridges than you do but I have approx. 14% more lead , 

I don't use 28 gm exclusively. I bought some 32gm 5s recently for £5 a box. Cheap enough, but did the job.

[welshwarrior]

2 hours ago, Hamster said:

Quoting things out of context (as I'm certain  you are aware) will help nothing. 

Plastic wads make an adequate (and consistent) seal within the vast majority of chamber dimensions all the way through enlarged cones as well as the multitude different choke profiles available on the market. That means that the major impact of what comes to alter or shape the pattern is via the choke and of course the cartridge spec itself.

Therefore it has been found that no "advantage" comes from one bore/chamber size against the other - all or any can be fine tuned to ones liking pretty much 99.9% of the time, besides, even the top 1% in the world can't realistically detect (or be negatively impacted by) the +/- half a choke denomination variation which we know happens from shot to shot, i.e, close enough is good enough. 

The situation is different with felt/fibre wads because achieving that sealing property is not easy throughout the bore size range, some cheaper ones don't seal consistently well even in "perfect" bore dimensions. It has been found that even moderately overbored competition guns such as the 682e can produce erratic patterns, some cluster "balling"  is also inevitable, I have personal experience of this because my own gun will not crush targets the same way with felt or plastic, is there a fibre shell out there that will ? Almost certainly yes there will be some that will seal better. 

 

Now this topic and especially where I got involved was about shooting game.  Perdomantly game is shot with fibre and wool wads as the vast majority of shoot don’t allow plastic wads.  

Now my post was about long range kills on game.  I maintain and you post agrees the barrels chokes and cartridges make a difference to kill long range game shoiting this means fibre and wool wads.  

If you want to shoot clays with plastic wads crack on I believe the days of plastic wads for any shooting is limited and rightly so.  

[Hamster]

14 minutes ago, welshwarrior said:

Now this topic and especially where I got involved was about shooting game.  Perdomantly game is shot with fibre and wool wads as the vast majority of shoot don’t allow plastic wads.  

Now my post was about long range kills on game.  I maintain and you post agrees the barrels chokes and cartridges make a difference to kill long range game shoiting this means fibre and wool wads.  

If you want to shoot clays with plastic wads crack on I believe the days of plastic wads for any shooting is limited and rightly so.  

Errr no, my reply was specifically aimed at your previous assertion that targets (i.e, clays) were missed by GD because he was using shells other than what he normally does : 

I have made no such claim that : "barrels chokes and cartridges make a difference to kill long range game" although admittedly it is likely a case could be made that they do. However, to assert that they do so with (barrels) is to fail to understand what I wrote regarding sealing, in other words it is not the barrels "fault" that the fibre/felt cannot seal properly in certain overbore dimensions, it is a simple reality, and in effect, "failure" of felt/fibre. 

The banning of plaswads will do .00000000000000000000000000000001% good for our ills until we address more pressing woes such as that created by our addiction to £1.50 plastic bottles of water we could just as easily get for nothing out of a tap. 

Quote

 

"The barrel set up has an effect forcing cones etc on the cartridges  

cartridges have an effect on these top shots I stood and watched Digweed miss a crosser repeated using someone elses gun and a mix match of cartridges the first pair of white golds I put in the gun (he didn’t know what they where) he broke the target. "

 

 

 

[Ultrastu]

4 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Cheap cartridges often mean less lead, (that was the point I was making) since the object is to put a dense pattern of lead in the air I can't see how less lead can ever be better than more lead..

How about if  all that extra lead is flying a lot slower than the lighter faster load .? 

Thats the issue isnt it ? 

Stuff loads of lead into a cartridge at the expense of powder /wadding etc .and end up with slower moving more damaged lead which patterns poorly and doesnt have as  much energy .so when you do strike your quarry with say 10 bit of lead they are less effective than the say 9 you hit it with from the smaller loaded cartridge .

I can kill full sized crows out to 30 yds with my 16 grms of lead from my .410 .

Why ? cos it patterns well and hitting a bird with say 15 lead pellets out of ..410  or 15 pellets from a 12b is (at the same velocity and range ) is the same .

The rest are wasted as they miss .

Edited November 15, 2018 by Ultrastu

[wymberley]

51 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

How about if  all that extra lead is flying a lot slower than the lighter faster load .? 

Thats the issue isnt it ? 

Stuff loads of lead into a cartridge at the expense of powder /wadding etc .and end up with slower moving more damaged lead which patterns poorly and doesnt have as  much energy .so when you do strike your quarry with say 10 bit of lead they are less effective than the say 9 you hit it with from the smaller loaded cartridge .

I can kill full sized crows out to 30 yds with my 16 grms of lead from my .410 .

Why ? cos it patterns well and hitting a bird with say 15 lead pellets out of ..410  or 15 pellets from a 12b is (at the same velocity and range ) is the same .

The rest are wasted as they miss .

Haven't you got that back to front? Taking a No 6, give it a muzzle velocity of 1500 ft/sec then at 50 yards it'll have just 0.1 ftlb of energy more than one with a muzzle velocity of 1300. So, yep that bit is correct but as the pattern will fail before energy that extra 0.1 is neither here nor there but you can be quite sure that in all probability the pattern quality and density of the slower load will be superior to those of the faster one.

[wymberley]

5 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Here we go, more willy waving!

Motty uses what works for him and so do you. 

I can get you up on one, do you think you'll need a bullet proof vest or will you take your chances?

Was thinking along the lines of a mobile Payne-Gallwey.

[motty]

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

How about if  all that extra lead is flying a lot slower than the lighter faster load .? 

Thats the issue isnt it ? 

Stuff loads of lead into a cartridge at the expense of powder /wadding etc .and end up with slower moving more damaged lead which patterns poorly and doesnt have as  much energy .so when you do strike your quarry with say 10 bit of lead they are less effective than the say 9 you hit it with from the smaller loaded cartridge .

I can kill full sized crows out to 30 yds with my 16 grms of lead from my .410 .

Why ? cos it patterns well and hitting a bird with say 15 lead pellets out of ..410  or 15 pellets from a 12b is (at the same velocity and range ) is the same .

The rest are wasted as they miss .

Slower moving lead will be "damaged" less. High velocity lead, in my view, is not good for much. A load fired at 1200 fps will not be too far different, energy wise, to a load fired at 1400 fps, when it reaches the target.

[Teal]

This is an interesting topic and some good ground is being covered. I know there are some strong opinions but please keep things civil, a couple of pages back came pretty close to getting the topic closed. But right now is on a good footing, by all means discuss these things but please don't let it get personal.

Are they actually high pheasants, or is it achieved through low guns, is my personal view. Stretch the distance and you stretch the ethics. Which I guess is the crux of the topic with how far is too far. An exceptional situation on a day is one thing, but every drive positioning the guns such that the birds are at the limits or beyond of capability of ballistics, I really have issues with.

[JJsDad]

1 hour ago, Teal said:

An exceptional situation on a day is one thing, but every drive positioning the guns such that the birds are at the limits or beyond of capability of ballistics, I really have issues with.

Well put Sir.

Which I would suggest sum`s up the majority feeling of people who have replied to this and the previously closed topic. Unfortunately, some always resort to abuse or name calling when it starts to look like they are losing ground on the argument.

[andrewluke]

2 hours ago, Teal said:

. An exceptional situation on a day is one thing, but every drive positioning the guns such that the birds are at the limits or beyond of capability of ballistics, I really have issues with.

[Ultrastu]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Haven't you got that back to front? Taking a No 6, give it a muzzle velocity of 1500 ft/sec then at 50 yards it'll have just 0.1 ftlb of energy more than one with a muzzle velocity of 1300. So, yep that bit is correct but as the pattern will fail before energy that extra 0.1 is neither here nor there but you can be quite sure that in all probability the pattern quality and density of the slower load will be superior to those of the faster one.

Oh i totally agree a slower pellet up the bore should be damaged less than a fast one .. due to less bore friction .

 

But i was thinking more of an insufficiant wad seperating the powder and the shot at the rear of the column. With less protection these pellets will be hugely damaged and be useless to the overall pattern and may as well be discounted. 

I also agree 100 fps extra  at the muzzle counts for nothing at 30 yds .. 

But if we stuff say 38 grms into a 20b cart .instead of 28 grms .then the velocity has to be reduced along with the protection provided by the wad .redering the extra 10 grm of lead at the rear much less effective while the front lead though still having a good bc is now much slower .

Its surely a balancing act that the cartridge manufacturers  know all too well .

[ditchman]

think i have started a few topics that have spawned "squit"...(old norfolk word).....but this one tops the lot.....

think Teal has the ethics right...."dont shoot birds you cant consistantly kill"...to which he has eluded to

love him or loath him...when someone has shot as many birds using a variety of guns and loads..as Motty has done over the years...one would do well to accept his judgement on matters of distance

it is only a matter of decency and correctness to shoot at a distance that the bore and load and choke of the gun dictates ..........as i said many posts ago , shooting at those distances , is no more than a willy waving exercise.............  

[Ultrastu]

In the case above id rather have a 28 grm load with most the pellets going where i want in an even pattern and them holding good energy .as opposed to 38 grm of slow moving 30 % damaged not patterning well pellets that have not great energy .In my opinion

[Perazzishot]

It's funny how when asked, no-one commenting has admitted ever being to an extreme shoot to witness 60+ birds being killed consistently.

When invited to attend I was met with no acceptance and had my character questioned.

That really does show a special level of blinkered denial!

 

Cheerio 

[JJsDad]

6 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Cheerio 

Most sensible thing you have said.

[gotgcoalman]

So today I tried the 90 yarder again.

This time using a Greener GP (full choke I think)

Same 290 odd pellet #6 and one of my 170 odd pellet  #4 home rolled subs.

Clay suspended on the target (same size lining paper)

24 hits on the paper with the #6 with the clay intact (so 10 more pellets than the previous test)

14 pellet strike with the subsonic clay still intact (no direct hit on the face on clay)

so the above sound barrier #6 cart with over 100 extra pellets lands an extra 10 of them on target.

 

[yickdaz]

6 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

It's funny how when asked, no-one commenting has admitted ever being to an extreme shoot to witness 60+ birds being killed consistently.

When invited to attend I was met with no acceptance and had my character questioned.

That really does show a special level of blinkered denial!

 

Cheerio 

why do any of us need to go on an high bird game day to witness 60+ yard birds being shot I have seen countless duck geese pigeons crows etc  shot at that distance by others and myself  over the last 32 years 

my whole argument is the ballistics side of things when the pattern starts to fail badly beyond the mentioned 60 65 yards 

[Ultrastu]

I havent been to a pheasant game shoot day .i cant afford to. I would like to .but it isnt gonna happen for this simple hard working carpenter. 

What i do do is shoot pigeons and crows in the fields near my home .

I cant kill 60 yd crows that are sitting on a branch waving a wing at me .not cos i cant aim or put the shot in the right direction .but more cos my cart /choke isnt suitable for such range .

I shoot paper and patten test before i go to shoot live game .i find what works for me and shoot within mine and my guns limits to increase sucess .

I dont shoot at 75 yd birds in the vain hope of a kill .and then think im amazing if 1 out of 10 shots happens to clip a wing and make it fall. 

There is talk of shooting pheasants  at 20 yds as being unsporting .and not the done thing. 

Ok. If a humane death for my quarry is frowned  upon  then im not gonna save all my money to be apart of that .

Cheers. 

[Hamster]

7 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

Most sensible thing you have said.

😂 😂 😂