14 million in poverty

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, henry d said:

Yes

 

Actually , regarding Hamilton, I agree with you.
But there are so many that do it, and the law lets them.
But how do you force rich people to contribute more , change the law ?

Make them more taxable , they will just become tax exiles, then we get nothing.
Make the UK less enticing for rich people , and they will leave, same with the big businesses that pay little tax, hit them harder and they will ship out and take the money and the jobs elsewhere, its already happening to an extent, but the more draconian we get , the exodus will increase per se.
Do you think there are 14 million in poverty Henry ?

[Lloyd90]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Actually , regarding Hamilton, I agree with you.
But there are so many that do it, and the law lets them.
But how do you force rich people to contribute more , change the law ?

Make them more taxable , they will just become tax exiles, then we get nothing.
Make the UK less enticing for rich people , and they will leave, same with the big businesses that pay little tax, hit them harder and they will ship out and take the money and the jobs elsewhere, its already happening to an extent, but the more draconian we get , the exodus will increase per se.
Do you think there are 14 million in poverty Henry ?

Exactly! 

That example above of the bloke only seeing his wife a certain number of days, surely he doesn’t want to live like that? 

Theyve made it that the bloke is better off living elsewhere and paying tax to another country. Our loss is their gain. 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said:

That example above of the bloke only seeing his wife a certain number of days, surely he doesn’t want to live like that? 

Oh I dont know 

I know a bloke, something to do with oil rigs in the far east, does exactly this, spends a lot of time in Thailand...

[Lloyd90]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Oh I dont know 

I know a bloke, something to do with oil rigs in the far east, does exactly this, spends a lot of time in Thailand...

I was thinking that when I was typing it. 

Imagine only getting nagged and complained at 60 days a year (or whatever it is). 

Some people would pay more tax for the privilege. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[team tractor]

40 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

See, I told you this would get emotive and personal. Your taking this as a personal dig at you. 

But without looking at it from your personal perspective, your Mrs fell pregnant not once but twice whilst on the implant. Why didn’t you get the snip after the first time the implant failed? Clearly it wasn’t effective. 

Why didn’t you use a condom? You appear to be trying to blame me because of what happened. Maybe you should look closer to home. 

 

Your Mrs didn’t have any kids of her own... have you considered that maybe she didn’t get pregnant TWICE by accident? Surely the first ‘accident’ was a give away that what you were doing wasn’t effective, so you did it again 😣 isn’t the definition of insanity doing something over and over and expecting different results? 

 

 

Not sure what me not driving in dangerous conditions has to do with anything? 

Maybe I should go around running into burning buildings trying to help people, putting myself at risk to show off what a great person I am? 

 

Clutching at straws there aren’t you? 

End of the day you could have aborted if you CHOSE TO. Lots of people make that decision everyday for a variety of reasons. You CHOSE to have 4 kids. 

You really are a nasty piece of s##t

i went to the doctors with her to have it fitted. 

Personal  You’ve crossed the line . 

Thank god we don’t all have your attitude in this world . 

Your saying my mrs is a lier ? On a forum .

a man in your job should understand these things and not recommend an abortion of my kids. 

One day you might be a parent .  I wish your kids all the look in the world with such a caring parent 🙄🙄🙄

[Whatmuff]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

Don't know where you got that info from, the top 1% have schemes in place when often they pay no tax ! That's half the reason we're in this mess. How did you figure out that the middle class tax is a drop in the ocean ? 

Bear in mind tax is not just what we pay as stoppages but everything we spend our already taxed money on is taxed again via VAT, fuel tax, congestion charges etc, when seen as a percentage of ones income 😉  paying a fiver to pop over the Dartford crossing feels a lot worse to the average man than it would say a millionaire. 

This subject is actually very much connected to tax avoidance, a subject which I know from previous experience the PigeonWatch massive think is a sign of intelligence for the culprits and damn the rest. 

Where is your PROOF that the majority of the 14 million fall into that category ? Opinion is one thing proof is another. Here we have an official report that maintains this number of people fall into what is today defined as poverty or below levels, then we have people coming on with one liners, rhetorics and opinion suggesting they don't agree with those findings. 

You're bang on mate. There is a lot of generalisation on here as to poor people just spend money on cars , fags, booze and sky TV. Who's sky cost £100 a month? Don't put numbers into people's heads when you have no idea. Cost of living has gone through the roof due to inflation, average food prices have risen 10% in a year which is insane, everyone just blames the fall in the pound. (Bull) . Millionaires are getting richer every day and the rest of us are getting poorer. It amazes me that people can just judge an entire population on millions based on pub chat, "they just breed kids and watch TV with no job, and we are paying for them" 

Try a nurse on 30k in Kent when the average home is 300k. Still think it's easy for her/him to survive with 2 kids. In today's society?

Cost of living is very different depending on which part of the country you live in and people are finding it very tough, so don't generalise. I agree there are families that have taken the **** with benefits in the pass and there are definitely millionaires and CEOs that take the **** and pocket stupid amounts of money and avoid tax to add to their wealthy estates, but again not all of them do. And I can't help feeling sorry for someone who takes home 1 million, regardless of how much tax he pays.

Oh and I can't wait for children in need this year when we get the tax avoidance celebs who tell us all to dig deep for some money! 

[Lloyd90]

4 minutes ago, team tractor said:

You really are a nasty piece of s##t

i went to the doctors with her to have it fitted. 

Personal  You’ve crossed the line . 

Thank god we don’t all have your attitude in this world . 

Your saying my mrs is a lier ? On a forum .

a man in your job should understand these things and not recommend an abortion of my kids. 

One day you might be a parent .  I wish your kids all the look in the world with such a caring parent 🙄🙄🙄

Ah yes, it’s my fault because I’m nasty and mean. 

Nothing to do with the choices you made along the way. Like the choice to start a new relationship? Or the choice to have two more kids when you already had two? 

I suppose you just woke up one day and you had 4 kids? 

 

If I do CHOOSE to have kids, I will make sure I only have the ones I can afford to have. 

I wont sit around complaining that it’s everyone else’s fault that I will have to pay for childcare, or how hard done by my partner and I are when we have to pay out for those kids, because I know in advance what having kids entails. 

 

Whats that got to do with my line of work? Lots of people I work with complain about similar things to this all the time. We see it day in and day out. 

People banging out kids they can’t afford, or they don’t really want, then going mad about how hard done by they are, or complain that their kids are hard work and they don’t want them, putting them into care homes and then going off to have more kids. I’ve seen it all. 

[Whatmuff]

1 hour ago, team tractor said:

You really are something else.

my mrs fell pregnant while on the implant, out of our control . 

She hadn’t any children but accepted my previous 2 . Did you want her to abort ? 

The same happened the 2nd time so I’ve had the snip. 

Now she can either sit at home or work. Their is no insentive to work anymore.

 

im surprised a man in your back ground would come up with the comments you have. 

You won’t even leave the house in the snow earlier in the year to help others( I’m not crashing my car for my boss ) your words I believe  

I work 60+ hours each week so it’s fine for me to get no help ? 

People that put in should be rewarded .

 

This isn't directed at you Team Tractor, more for Lloyd.

How can he put every case of people having kids into a scenario of sitting down and working out the financial cost before deciding how many to have. Every family is different and has many different reasons as to why they have 3 or 4 and find it difficult to finance them. Many inflation and stagnant wages or job losses could contribute to poverty. The fact house prices have risen 40% in 6 years so when you had kids you didn't realise you needed 60 grand to buy a house.

Or in an instance of someone I knew, he served in the RAF, lived in married quarters and had 3 children. All was well and could afford them and then suddenly died from cancer and left his wife with no house and 3 children and she wasn't working. Still think she deserves no help and it's her fault for not planning enough for the future? 

The lack of compassion on here really surprises me and it's amazing how people think that the rich work harder and some how deserve more in life than the poor because they have money. 

Go and follow a charity called Humanity Torbay and look into this women and the amazing work she does. She will open your eyes to what is actually happening on the streets on the UK and how the news covers nothing. Only the odd Ch5 programmes "life on the dole" "me and my 6 kids" it's not all like that.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Whatmuff

[Lloyd90]

11 minutes ago, team tractor said:

 

Your saying my mrs is a lier ? On a forum .

a man in your job should understand these things and not recommend an abortion of my Kids. 

Your partner got pregnant, not once, BUT TWICE ... TWICE ... whilst on the implant? 

And you think that it’s not either of your fault that this happened? 

Its just one of those things? 

And for the record I didn’t recommend that you should have aborted. You have twisted that to be emotive and try to look like the victim in this. 

 

A friend of mine had his partner fall pregnant. She didn’t have a job at the time, they both lived at home with their parents and he was just starting out in his first job after graduating. 

 

They both discussed it like grown ups do, decided they weren’t in a good position to be parents and they decided not to have have a child at that time, because they knew they weren’t in a good position for that. 

 

People make that decision all the time. But if it makes you feel better to swear at me and call me nasty then crack on 👍🏻

4 minutes ago, Whatmuff said:

 

This isn't directed at you Team Tractor, more for Lloyd.

How can he put every case of people having kids into a scenario of sitting down and working out the financial cost before deciding how many to have. Every family is different and has many different reasons as to why they have 3 or 4 and find it difficult to finance them. Many inflation and stagnant wages or job losses could contribute to poverty. The fact house prices have risen 40% in 6 years so when you had kids you didn't realise you needed 60 grand to buy a house.

Or in an instance of someone I knew, he served in the RAF, lived in married quarters and had 3 children. All was well and could afford them and then suddenly died from cancer and left his wife with no house and 3 children and she wasn't working. Still think she deserves no help and it's her fault for not planning enough for the future? 

The lack of compassion on here really surprises me and it's amazing how people think that the rich work harder and some how deserve more in life than the poor because they have money. 

Go and follow a charity called Humanity Torbay and look into this women and the amazing work she does. She will open your eyes to what is actually happening on the streets on the UK and how the news covers nothing. Only the odd Ch5 programmes "life on the dole" "me and my 6 kids" it's not all like that.

I completely get that mate, lots of people are victims of circumstances. 

However lots of people are victims of their own choices.

Its not black and white and it’s not worth looking at everything in absolutes. 

The safety net is there for those like the woman you describe, yet there are plenty of people who’ve never worked, never served this country and yet get the same support that women will.

They could be 16 - have 3 kids and get the council house next door to her and the same benefits and support. Is that fair? 

[Whatmuff]

7 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Your partner got pregnant, not once, BUT TWICE ... TWICE ... whilst on the implant? 

And you think that it’s not either of your fault that this happened? 

Its just one of those things? 

And for the record I didn’t recommend that you should have aborted. You have twisted that to be emotive and try to look like the victim in this. 

 

A friend of mine had his partner fall pregnant. She didn’t have a job at the time, they both lived at home with their parents and he was just starting out in his first job after graduating. 

 

They both discussed it like grown ups do, decided they weren’t in a good position to be parents and they decided not to have have a child at that time, because they knew they weren’t in a good position for that. 

 

People make that decision all the time. But if it makes you feel better to swear at me and call me nasty then crack on 👍🏻

I completely get that mate, lots of people are victims of circumstances. 

However lots of people are victims of their own choices.

Its not black and white and it’s not worth looking at everything in absolutes. 

The safety net is there for those like the woman you describe, yet there are plenty of people who’ve never worked, never served this country and yet get the same support that women will.

They could be 16 - have 3 kids and get the council house next door to her and the same benefits and support. Is that fair? 

Fair mate, completely agree bud.

[ShootingEgg]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Are you saying an official report is 'proof ' that something is true now?

Im basing my opinion on what I see and hear from real people, not on some government bashing think tanks 'report' that is just trying to score political brownie points, and convince us we would all be better off under socialism.
 

This 100%

 

As i said, that report could be fudged to make the figures show what they want to show... 

But only an opinion, im not official or a report, i use a car, train and bus to get to work, my phone is just that, i could probably go back to using a non smart phone if i wanted to. I dont over spend or use credit cards. Put me next to my boss or my superiors at work and i could say im poor. But I know im not and i have enough to live and enjoy my work life and home life. 

My sister and brother inlaw have two kids, and have for the last two years lived on 17k.. Thats a family of 4 on 17k before tax income.. She cannot work due to epilepsy, he was made redundant and took the next job that was offered at the time. They dont claim poverty!!!!!!! 

[henry d]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

Exactly! 

That example above of the bloke only seeing his wife a certain number of days, surely he doesn’t want to live like that? 

Theyve made it that the bloke is better off living elsewhere and paying tax to another country. Our loss is their gain. 

Yes he does want to live like that, you should see the car crash of a family, BTW he doesn`t pay tax anywhere else either.

[Lloyd90]

11 minutes ago, henry d said:

Yes he does want to live like that, you should see the car crash of a family, BTW he doesn`t pay tax anywhere else either.

What a horrible life, but each to their own. 

[Walker570]

You will always have the..."Haves and Have Nots"   I am now in my 78th year and have seen it all come and go in those years..the aftermath of the last war...the swinging sixties and seventies when we never had so good all the way to the presnt day.  When I was but a lad back in the 50s on the farm, there would regularly be a knock at the back door by one or two local chaps who worked down the pit at Pooley. One in particular worked permanent nights on the cutters, which I am told was not a pleasant job and was one of the higher paid. Canny Adcock would knock on our back door and ask my grandfather if there was any work needed doing and almost invariably he would spend the next four or five hours forking muck out of a calf pen or knocking posts in for a new fence anything to earn a few extra bob.  He lived in a council house and we delivered milk there, I don't know for sure how many kids he had but you had to be careful not to trip over them. They were always well dressed, clean and polite.  Canny was one of the first in the area to have a 21 inch TV. Had a nicely furnished home but nothing unnecessary....he was willing to get off his backside and go find extra work to provide it.   Today I see a couple in the Post Office piling notes into their wallets, quite fit enough to walk and drive a car(provided by the tax payers) but have conned some social security operative they are unfit. 

[Gordon R]

I don't accept the original stats and their definition of poverty.

That said - the thread has descended into the gutter - team tractor - you have my sympathy - some of the posts are a disgrace.

[JohnfromUK]

17 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Today I see a couple in the Post Office piling notes into their wallets, quite fit enough to walk and drive a car(provided by the tax payers) but have conned some social security operative they are unfit.

Sadly - this is all too common

[Dave-G]

Its my understanding that the reason Europe needs umpteen lorry loads of immigrants is mostly because us British Europeans didn't breed enough children of our own. At the risk of sounding a bit off track - we more or less know what countries and ethnicities have a much higher breeding rate than ours so we sorta reaped what we didn't sow. 😔

As much as I see the logic of not breeding more than parents can financially support, I guess its why child benefit was introduced in attempt to make having children more affordable for those on tight budgets.

[Lloyd90]

4 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I don't accept the original stats and their definition of poverty.

That said - the thread has descended into the gutter - team tractor - you have my sympathy - some of the posts are a disgrace.

Which ones Gordon? 

Which concepts do you find so distasteful? 

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

I know someone who earns over 25K a month, not in the UK, and has one house worth around 250K and another around 7-800K. He meets his wife wife at various locations around the globe and spends just the right number of days in the UK so he does not pay his whack in tax.

The rich get richer/greedier and the poor poorer.

You could be describing quite a few of the blokes I work with.But they're not rich. If they were they wouldn't be grafting in a place like Saudi. If you want to see rich, spend a bit of time around yacht anchorages in the Med or Caribbean. It's a completely different world.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Dave-G said:

As much as I see the logic of not breeding more than parents can financially support, I guess its why child benefit was introduced in attempt to make having children more affordable for those on tight budgets.

The real problem now, MUCH bigger than this threads original topic, is that there are too many people on the planet.  ALL nations need to reduce birthrate to either stabilise or reduce the global population, or some will suffer even more - especially if global warming changes the climate as well.

[Lloyd90]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

The real problem now, MUCH bigger than this threads original topic, is that there are too many people on the planet.  ALL nations need to reduce birthrate to either stabilise or reduce the global population, or some will suffer even more - especially if global warming changes the climate as well.

Isn’t that natural selection? 

Isn’t starvation in Africa because there are too many people for the area to support? 

[guzzicat]

1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said:

Isn’t that natural selection? 

Isn’t starvation in Africa because there are too many people for the area to support? 

Yes If you (or the country)can,t feed them, don,t breed them.

[Retsdon]

9 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Its my understanding that the reason Europe needs umpteen lorry loads of immigrants is mostly because us British Europeans didn't breed enough children of our own. At the risk of sounding a bit off track - we more or less know what countries and ethnicities have a much higher breeding rate than ours so we sorta reaped what we didn't sow. 😔

As much as I see the logic of not breeding more than parents can financially support, I guess its why child benefit was introduced in attempt to make having children more affordable for those on tight budgets.

Correct. 

15 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

That said - the thread has descended into the gutter - team tractor - you have my sympathy - some of the posts are a disgrace.

I've just read back up the thread, and I absolutely agree Gordon. Some utterly shameful stuff.

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Isn’t that natural selection? 

Isn’t starvation in Africa because there are too many people for the area to support? 

Yes, starvation strikes in Africa and other places because there are more people than the local conditions and climate can regularly support.  But the problem is also 'global' in that as the world population increases , famine will become more widespread unless alternative food sources are found.  Poverty is not only the (disputed) number on this thread, it is a huge worldwide problem, only many parts don't have the generous benefit systems we have.

[henry d]

10 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

 we more or less know what countries and ethnicities have a much higher breeding rate than ours so we sorta reaped what we didn't sow. 😔

What a load of testicles, we grew our own population well before immigration as we know it. It took us just 100 years to jump from 27million (1850`s) to 56 million (1970`s). If you want further shock figures the population density per square kilometre doubled from 1850`s in just 60 years!

19 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

You could be describing quite a few of the blokes I work with.But they're not rich. If they were they wouldn't be grafting in a place like Saudi. If you want to see rich, spend a bit of time around yacht anchorages in the Med or Caribbean. It's a completely different world.

Are they paying their way or are they also tax exiles with family in the UK using the support systems that they should also be helping pay for?