Strange methods 🤔

[bigbird]

Hi all, what do you make of this?

A friend has been to a trainer with his two cockers. Apparently you should use brightly coloured dummies to train with for everything so that they ‘learn to use their eyes’? Friend thinks the sun shines out of this fella’s behind but it goes completely against the grain for me - they’re hunting dogs!!

I did ask if the guy was a Labrador man but no, apparently he’s a cocker man!

Edited February 19, 2019 by bigbird

[Major Sharpe]

I would have thought the sense of smell was the sense used by hunting dogs to retrieve. My lab seems to do quite well using his nose.

[scutt]

Depends if you expect the dog to flush brightly coloured rabbits😉 even a cock pheasant isn't brightly coloured .The nose gets my vote.

[B725]

At the game fair last year on one scurry there was a woman screaming at her dog like a lunatic to pick up the orange dummy not the green one. I nearly wazzed myself, also I was stood next to someone who's bitch was in season hardly fair on other people's dogs. Can dog's see in colour? 

[loriusgarrulus]

Found this that shows dogs colour vision compared to humans.

[Duckandswing]

My dog fetched a brown stick in between a pile of brown sticks. Brings me the correct brown stick in a whole host of other brown sticks. Pretty sure she smelt out her actual brown stick.

My dog can fetch a dark red ball in the dark as well as she can an illuminous green one. Pretty sure she smells the ball rather than sees it?

[B725]

It is all about hunting and using their nose. How would the fuzz train springers and cockers to find drug's and gun's etc. Its fairly obvious when watching a dog hunt and it uses the wind then turns on a tanner. BB does the guy actually use gun dog's for what they are bred for, I'm fairly confident I could put little Stan against owt he turns out. 

[bigbird]

7 minutes ago, B725 said:

It is all about hunting and using their nose. How would the fuzz train springers and cockers to find drug's and gun's etc. Its fairly obvious when watching a dog hunt and it uses the wind then turns on a tanner. BB does the guy actually use gun dog's for what they are bred for, I'm fairly confident I could put little Stan against owt he turns out. 

He says he does..... I’m not so sure 😂😂

[PERCE]

https://www.sportingsaint.co.uk/product/1408

[bigbird]

8 hours ago, PERCE said:

https://www.sportingsaint.co.uk/product/1408

Andy uses them to teach dogs confidence on marks and initial blinds (B725 not sure if Andy used these when you guys were here) this guy uses them to encourage the dog to use its eyes instead of doing any hunting 🤔

Edited February 20, 2019 by bigbird

[B725]

Hi BB from memory we just had regular green ones, we all know you could blindfold a spaniel and it will still find it. I wouldn't want to take my dog there 

[PERCE]

3 hours ago, bigbird said:

Andy uses them to teach dogs confidence on marks and initial blinds (B725 not sure if Andy used these when you guys were here) this guy uses them to encourage the dog to use its eyes instead of doing any hunting 🤔

Without seeing what's gone on you've no idea if the trainer is sensible or a loon, you've no idea if the trainee has actually grasped what is being taught or realised the trainer is a loon.

I take the view that you're teaching a dog to do something, ie not what it says on the can, in a spaniels case that's hunt. So if I'm training a dog to go back I don't want it going back 5 yards & then start hunting, I want it to keep going back until it either touches a scent line or i stop it. Using dummies it can see is one way of doing this. Mind in a cockers case using anything the little **** will retrieve often works well.

[bigbird]

30 minutes ago, PERCE said:

Mind in a cockers case using anything the little **** will retrieve often works well.

Amen to that 😂😂

[B725]

I don't need a hi_viz dummy to send my dog back. 

[PERCE]

1 hour ago, B725 said:

I don't need a hi_viz dummy to send my dog back. 

Not all dogs pick things up straight away, some you have to grind & grind away at & use any method that will work.

[Lloyd90]

I don’t think dogs see colour like us but see certain shades easier than others. 

 

I know they use easier to see shades to begin with to build confidence but once the dog has got the idea make them harder and when the dog is using his eyes too much, you should plant in longer grass or cover to get them to use their nose. 

 

What MIGHT have happened however, is that the trainer has told them to do something, eg let the dog see it one time or a handful of times, eg to get the dog to go back further then it’s used to, and the student has misinterpreted the lesson, and thinks that needs to happen every single time. 

 

One of the the hardest things about finding a trainer, is someone who explains it in a way you easily understand. 

Ask lots of good dog trainers how they trained their dog, they’ll shrug and say they “just did it”. 

 

 

 

[wj939]

If he’s teaching line work for straight out runs and wants the dog to hold its mark, then yes, it makes some sense in an open environment over long outruns. Possible the client has misunderstood, possible the trainer just thinks a cocker should use its eyes to see retrieves, I can’t imagine he’s won much if that’s the case....

 

[Dave at kelton]

The way the top trainers are teaching long retrieves on a line is with white, not bright dummies. It is largely a retriever trick. It helps line a dog up on a retrieve at distance. The dog gets used to you lining it up on a seen dummy and taking the line you set it on. Once the dog gets confidence to follow the line you set you knock off the seen bit. It certainly works on labs, which I train but cockers are not trained for long retrieves as labs are. I cannot see any harm in using this method on cockers but I question if you want to be sending them over the long distances expected of labs.

only other point is you are less likely to lose bright dummies. I use green orange and white.

hope this helps

[sako751sg]

On 20/02/2019 at 11:11, PERCE said:

Without seeing what's gone on you've no idea if the trainer is sensible or a loon, you've no idea if the trainee has actually grasped what is being taught or realised the trainer is a loon.

I take the view that you're teaching a dog to do something, ie not what it says on the can, in a spaniels case that's hunt. So if I'm training a dog to go back I don't want it going back 5 yards & then start hunting, I want it to keep going back until it either touches a scent line or i stop it. Using dummies it can see is one way of doing this. Mind in a cockers case using anything the little **** will retrieve often works well.

Absolutely.

I would be shocked if the lad is training the dog to use its eyes all the time and "instead of doing any hunting".

Just another way of getting the most out of our dogs senses imo.

[scotslad]

I'd agree with wot Perce and David have said.

 

If that contrasting dummy gives it dog that extra confidence or vision while teaching something new or its struggling with it makes sense to make it slightly easier if u can 

By the same token u could alter dummy colour to make a retrieve harder.

Really no different to using wind, cover or distance or distractions to make a retrieve harder 

I sometimes tie a wee bit of tikky tape on dummy string but more so I can see dummy if giving directions/search command.

 

Was an article in ST a while back about dogs vision and colours. I had some small orange 1"s for puppies but seemingly there hard for a dog to make out on green grass

They say the contrast off black/white dummies is best.

Is there not plastic dumies u can alter how they float to make water retrieves harder

The working gundog company do a good range of different sized and coloured dummies plus a nice shape too.

Can understand the logic/thinking behind the different colours shape and sizes wether it really makes much difference, who knows

As many have got on just fine for decades with normal green 1's

[Saltings]

the only time I use bright dummies is in early training putting multiple dummies in an area so the dog will not fail on a blind retrieve  the bright colour is so that I can find the remaining dummies,  all dummies are kept in the food bag to gain scent teaches them to use their nose