Brexit - merged threads

[sportsbob]

30 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Why is it on these boards that any points raised from a viewpoint that differs from Hard Brexit, no matter how well informed or from whatever source, are never, ever engaged with directly. Instead, the author is simply rubbished and his points are dismissed out of hand as mendacious claptrap, penned to further some sinister agenda - usually personal. There. End of. No further discussion needed.  It's like trying to discuss comparative religion with the Wahabi from Qassim! Anything that's not the True Faith of the Sunni is heresy, and only harm can come from even looking at it........

When you you say "these boards" do you mean there are other places where the majority speak and think like the majority do on here?. If that is the case then perhaps it is because "these boards" are frequented by the masses who mostly share the similar ambition to leave the EU, simply walk out the door and close it no deals no ifs no buts.  The vote made was by the people and the people voted leave I`m sick and tired of hearing that Business and finance will suffer and they should be taken into account, they were taken into account in the vote because the people that work in those sectors voted.  I have a Business and the uncertainty surrounding Brexit is defiantly responsible for a drop in trade, if the remoaners stopped spouting off all the time I feel the uncertainty would be less. 

[Retsdon]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

Your link doesn't exactly refer to an independent party does it!

Well, I think he's pretty independent. In his other recent speech https://share.trin.cam.ac.uk/sites/public/Comms/Rogers_brexit_as_revolution.pdf, he talks about how the Remainers maneuvering for another referendum are equally as misguided as the hard Brexiters..The main thrust of what he says in both speeches is that it is certain that Britain is leaving the EU; it is certain that Britain will have to establish a working relationship with its nearest neighbour and biggest trading partner; it is certain that negotiations will be long and difficult -  and consequently  it is time for people on both sides to forget about either getting back into the EU or else floating off to some imaginary WTO ruled land of Milk and Honey because both are fantasies that only exist in their heads  What he's saying is that rather than keeping on fighting the 2016 referendum we need to get some realistic desired outcomes sorted out, and put in place a proper and realistic road plan for achieving them, Either that or we're going to leave the EU to control the agenda and we'll finish up being shafted. 

That's why I'm shaking my head at all the vitriol being directed at the man. What is there to object to in what he's saying?

[Dave-G]

28 minutes ago, Scully said:

... I genuinely and seriously hope that if there is a second referendum it creates civil unrest such as has never been seen in my lifetime. There is much much more at stake here than someones pension or personal financial agenda. People need to get a grip and grow a pair. 

I've never felt emotive enough to support protest crowds/rebellions before but I think Brits have been too affable for too long. I now feel the time is coming very soon that like in European cities the public will not only protest - but do it in the way that many other protesters get their way the first time rather trying the nice way first.

Too much of our right to be UK governed, ploticians ripping the public purse off, migrant thugishness and cultural shenanigans amongst many other slippery slopes have slid into the water and gone under the bridge.

[Retsdon]

15 minutes ago, sportsbob said:

When you you say "these boards" do you mean there are other places where the majority speak and think like the majority do on here?.

No, I meant this board - it has lots of pages!. And it's not the opinions, it's the business of playing the man and not the ball. See my reply to Scully above...

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Well, I think he's pretty independent. In his other recent speech https://share.trin.cam.ac.uk/sites/public/Comms/Rogers_brexit_as_revolution.pdf, he talks about how the Remainers maneuvering for another referendum are equally as misguided as the hard Brexiters..The main thrust of what he says in both speeches is that it is certain that Britain is leaving the EU; it is certain that Britain will have to establish a working relationship with its nearest neighbour and biggest trading partner; it is certain that negotiations will be long and difficult -  and consequently  it is time for people on both sides to forget about either getting back into the EU or else floating off to some imaginary WTO ruled land of Milk and Honey because both are fantasies that only exist in their heads  What he's saying is that rather than keeping on fighting the 2016 referendum we need to get some realistic desired outcomes sorted out, and put in place a proper and realistic road plan for achieving them, Either that or we're going to leave the EU to control the agenda and we'll finish up being shafted. 

That's why I'm shaking my head at all the vitriol being directed at the man. What is there to object to in what he's saying?

But the thing is, FIRST we need to leave, and leave completely and utterly, before we can start again. We cannot do that or negotiate anything while being tied to the apron strings of the EU. Cut our ties completely and then let's get on with our lives. 

[Retsdon]

Just now, Scully said:

We cannot do that or negotiate anything while being tied to the apron strings of the EU. Cut our ties completely and then let's get on with our lives. 

Sir Ivan says that's simply not possible in the real world. He points out that not only are all Britain's current trade deals governed by EU law,  the EU is probably the biggest global player when it comes to trading standards and has an influence and reach far beyond its own borders. He cites examples illustrating the difficulties of trading with other 3rd party countries directly unless one adheres to regulations set by the EU - even though the EU itself might not be a party to the trade. Quite -  it's the stuff of nightmares quite frankly and makes for unhappy reading. But unless Rogers is lying or mistaken (and there's no reason to think either might be the case)  then that's what we have to deal with so we'd better face up to it. Wishing that the EU would just go away isn't going to change a thing.

[Walker570]

16 minutes ago, Scully said:

But the thing is, FIRST we need to leave, and leave completely and utterly, before we can start again. We cannot do that or negotiate anything while being tied to the apron strings of the EU. Cut our ties completely and then let's get on with our lives. 

100% Scully. Anyone who watched the speaches at the Leave Means Leave rally can not be in doubt about what the unelected in Brussels are up to.  Three very succesful businessmen put it straight, all the talk about the EU cutting off our supplies of food etc is total baloney. Tim Martin pointed out a vast aray of products from outside the EU which can be purchased and also with the huge tariff imposed ny the EU which we at the moment have to collect and then pay to Brussels ....you couldn't make it up!!  ALL these products would come in to the British Isles at the right price. As Tim Martin pointed out  the weather in Morroco is very nice at the moment along with many more destinations, we don't have to fly to Spain/Portugal for our holudays should the numpties....very dangerous numpties I add....stop all flights from the UK landing in EU countries. 

Mrs May and all the other self serving creeps in Westminster need to grow some and walk away right now like any half reasonable true businessman or woman would do.

Guess who would blink first.........................

Edited December 15, 2018 by Walker570

[Scully]

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

Sir Ivan says that's simply not possible in the real world. He points out that not only are all Britain's current trade deals governed by EU law,  the EU is probably the biggest global player when it comes to trading standards and has an influence and reach far beyond its own borders. He cites examples illustrating the difficulties of trading with other 3rd party countries directly unless one adheres to regulations set by the EU - even though the EU itself might not be a party to the trade. Quite -  it's the stuff of nightmares quite frankly and makes for unhappy reading. But unless Rogers is lying or mistaken (and there's no reason to think either might be the case)  then that's what we have to deal with so we'd better face up to it. Wishing that the EU would just go away isn't going to change a thing.

But the referendum vote didn't consist of provisos or clauses stating 'dependant on what deals we can do', or dependant 'on the difficulties of trading with other 3rd party countries' nor 'adhereing to regulations set by the EU'; ( which is ludicrous when you think of what we're supposed to be doing ) it consisted of stay or leave. We voted to leave. The sooner we do the sooner we can get on. 

9 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

100% Scully. Anyone who watched the speaches at the Leave Means Leave rally can not be in doubt about what the unelected in Brussels are up to.  Three very succesful businessmen put it straight, all the talk about the EU cutting off our supplies of food etc is total baloney. Tim Martin pointed out a vast aray of products from outside the EU which can be purchased and also with the huge tariff imposed ny the EU which we at the moment have to collect and then pay to Brussels ....you couldn't make it up!!  ALL these products would come in to the British Isles at the right price. As Tim Martin pointed out  the weather in Morroco is very nice at the moment along with many more destinations, we don't have to fly to Spain/Portugal for our holudays should the numpties....very dangerous numpties I add....stop all flights from the UK landing in EU countries. 

Mrs May and all the other self serving creeps in Westminster need to grow some and walk away right now like any half reasonable true businessman or woman would do.

Guess who would blink first.........................

👍

[Gerry78]

It was the arrogance of your conservative MPs that got yous in this situation telling the uk population to leave The reality is the population believed them And now there panicking regarding not getting there own way So as I say don’t be expecting the EU to give the UK a good deal Here in N Ireland as I said previous post the vote was to stay But the general UK vote was to leave So we had to go with the majority We could debate this forever Brexit is happening GET over IT 

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

Why is it on these boards that any points raised from a viewpoint that differs from Hard Brexit, no matter how well informed or from whatever source, are never, ever engaged with directly. Instead, the author is simply rubbished and his points are dismissed out of hand as mendacious claptrap, penned to further some sinister agenda - usually personal. There. End of. No further discussion needed.  It's like trying to discuss comparative religion with the Wahabi from Qassim! Anything that's not the True Faith of the Sunni is heresy, and only harm can come from even looking at it........

 

 My guess is a lot worse than people currently suspect. May's 'deal' - which I'm convinced she'll eventually get voted through Parliament - is nothing more than a list of aspirations pinned to a provisional timeline. The real negotiations haven't started yet and are going to take years and years. In the meantime the economy will be starved of any new investment, and overseas customers are going to find more certain prospects to do their business with.  A decade from now, the pound at $0.70c. 

Extremely doubtful!  As you say, it,s your guess! And certainly not the guess of those in business, particularly  big exporters! Two days ago, Lord Bamford (JCB) stated that  Britains exporters have little to fear from a clean  Brexit, he employs 7,200 worldwide, and sells in virtually every country on the planet! Tim Wetherspoon, CEO of Wetherspoons, says the same. James Dyson says the same....my daughter works closely with upper management at Rolls-Royce engines, they have quietly been making preparations for a WTO Brexit from day one, and she learns that, whilst they would have preferred to stay in the EU, they are not unduly worried by leaving it! 

There are quite a few other large British companies that are following this path....

But you, no doubt, know better!

[Retsdon]

18 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Guess who would blink first.........................

Not the EU. Remember how German car makers and French farmers were supposed to pressure their governments into forcing Barnier to make concessions on the single market?  Didn't happen. The easiest free trade deal in history, because we held all the cards? Didn't happen. The EU isn't going to blink and the only way to get what we want is if it's of benefit to the EU too and if it doesn't transgress the EU's own 'red lines'. We're not in the EU anymore talking to our fellow members, we're now one country against a solid group of 27 so we'd better get used to it. Bluster isn't going to cut it.

 

38 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

should the numpties....very dangerous numpties I add....stop all flights from the UK landing in EU countries. 

Nobody wants to. But international flights, just like international travellers, are governed by agreements and bits of paper and if Britain leaves the EU without a transitional deal in place the current agreements and bits of paper are no longer valid until such time as we can sort out new ones. That's just how it works. Try flying anywhere on an out of date passport and see how far you get. It's the same thing.

[pinfireman]

49 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Sir Ivan says that's simply not possible in the real world. He points out that not only are all Britain's current trade deals governed by EU law,  the EU is probably the biggest global player when it comes to trading standards and has an influence and reach far beyond its own borders. He cites examples illustrating the difficulties of trading with other 3rd party countries directly unless one adheres to regulations set by the EU - even though the EU itself might not be a party to the trade. Quite -  it's the stuff of nightmares quite frankly and makes for unhappy reading. But unless Rogers is lying or mistaken (and there's no reason to think either might be the case)  then that's what we have to deal with so we'd better face up to it. Wishing that the EU would just go away isn't going to change a thing.

He was/is a Civil Servant! NOT a business man! And an architect of Project Fear!

5 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Not the EU. Remember how German car makers and French farmers were supposed to pressure their governments into forcing Barnier to make concessions on the single market?  Didn't happen. The easiest free trade deal in history, because we held all the cards? Didn't happen. The EU isn't going to blink and the only way to get what we want is if it's of benefit to the EU too and if it doesn't transgress the EU's own 'red lines'. We're not in the EU anymore talking to our fellow members, we're now one country against a solid group of 27 so we'd better get used to it. Bluster isn't going to cut it.

 

Nobody wants to. But international flights, just like international travellers, are governed by agreements and bits of paper and if Britain leaves the EU without a transitional deal in place the current agreements and bits of paper are no longer valid until such time as we can sort out new ones. That's just how it works. Try flying anywhere on an out of date passport and see how far you get. It's the same thing.

They need to fly through British airspace....or take a long route around it..,.it,s more Project Fear! 

49 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Sir Ivan says that's simply not possible in the real world. He points out that not only are all Britain's current trade deals governed by EU law,  the EU is probably the biggest global player when it comes to trading standards and has an influence and reach far beyond its own borders. He cites examples illustrating the difficulties of trading with other 3rd party countries directly unless one adheres to regulations set by the EU - even though the EU itself might not be a party to the trade. Quite -  it's the stuff of nightmares quite frankly and makes for unhappy reading. But unless Rogers is lying or mistaken (and there's no reason to think either might be the case)  then that's what we have to deal with so we'd better face up to it. Wishing that the EU would just go away isn't going to change a thing.

There are some very clever, intelligent and business astute people who would give him an argument!  He,s not the Second Coming..........far from it! He,s tainted by a long association with Brussels! And a long association with Blair & Brown!

Edited December 15, 2018 by pinfireman
spelling

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, sportsbob said:

When you you say "these boards" do you mean there are other places where the majority speak and think like the majority do on here?. If that is the case then perhaps it is because "these boards" are frequented by the masses who mostly share the similar ambition to leave the EU, simply walk out the door and close it no deals no ifs no buts.  The vote made was by the people and the people voted leave I`m sick and tired of hearing that Business and finance will suffer and they should be taken into account, they were taken into account in the vote because the people that work in those sectors voted.  I have a Business and the uncertainty surrounding Brexit is defiantly responsible for a drop in trade, if the remoaners stopped spouting off all the time I feel the uncertainty would be less. 

Well said Bob!

[hambone]

7 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Not the EU. Remember how German car makers and French farmers were supposed to pressure their governments into forcing Barnier to make concessions on the single market?  Didn't happen. The easiest free trade deal in history, because we held all the cards? Didn't happen. The EU isn't going to blink and the only way to get what we want is if it's of benefit to the EU too and if it doesn't transgress the EU's own 'red lines'. We're not in the EU anymore talking to our fellow members, we're now one country against a solid group of 27 so we'd better get used to it. Bluster isn't going to cut it.

 

Nobody wants to. But international flights, just like international travellers, are governed by agreements and bits of paper and if Britain leaves the EU without a transitional deal in place the current agreements and bits of paper are no longer valid until such time as we can sort out new ones. That's just how it works. Try flying anywhere on an out of date passport and see how far you get. It's the same thing.

Surprised but I totally agree with you 😁 we should stop the bluster and just tell the EU to **** off 

[Retsdon]

8 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

But you, no doubt, know better!

No! I'm just raising the voice of caution, and as I've said before, I'll be more than happy if everything I say turns out to be wrong. My pitiful pension to be is denominated in pounds sterling too you know...

[panoma1]

7 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

It was the arrogance of your conservative MPs that got yous in this situation telling the uk population to leave The reality is the population believed them And now there panicking regarding not getting there own way So as I say don’t be expecting the EU to give the UK a good deal Here in N Ireland as I said previous post the vote was to stay But the general UK vote was to leave So we had to go with the majority We could debate this forever Brexit is happening GET over IT 

No one Told the UK population to leave.......given the choice, that is what the U.K. Electorate chose!......Cameron and most of his conservative MP's tried to persuade the electorate to vote remain!

[Retsdon]

10 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

There are some very clever, intelligent and business astute people who would give him an argument! 

Links?

[pinfireman]

1 minute ago, panoma1 said:

No one Told the UK population to leave.......given the choice, that is what the U.K. Electorate chose!......Cameron and most of his conservative MP's tried to persuade the electorate to vote remain!

The conservatives  were mostly NOT in favour of Leave! It was the determination, and persistence of UKIP that forced a Referendum, the Conservative government believed that it would get a healthy majority for Remain, thus forcing UKIP into the political wilderness. They did not take into account that the MAJORITY of the British people were fed up with the EU, and wanted to once again rule themselves! And, as you point out, it was a National referendum, not a regional one, that was fought, and won, by Leave. It was the most democratic vote we have had since the first referendum in 1975, where we were lied to by the leaders of all three political parties.......their lies have been exposed over the years, and we did not get fooled again!

6 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Links?

As I have already pointed out, the most recent being Lord Bamford yesterday, in the national press.  I don,t do links,   I read the news, from a variety of sources. Both Press, and online. I,m sure you will find them...I don,t have the time, or inclination.

[old man]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

I suspect its too late the damage is done. What we want to know now is how bad can it get? 

Sadly the answer to that is that we have been sold out by our prime minister!

Only politics in this country could have given it all away including our democracy,  Tied into the EU forever, unable to leave ever and having lost any say in our future direction? If that's not a major crime against our Sovereignty it should be?

[pinfireman]

I came across this yesterday....

The Swiss Government have announced that a trade agreement has been reached between the UK and Switzerland to “maintain existing economic and trade relations with the country after its departure from the European Union” whether or not a deal is reached with the EU. The Swiss Federal Council announced that if the UK leaves the EU in a disorderly manner, it could sign and apply the agreement from the date on which the UK leaves the EU.

Announcing the agreement, the Swiss Embassy tweeted that the agreement will “support existing commercial and economic relations between the two countries post-Brexit… regardless of the eventual Brexit scenario.” At least in one part of Europe, level heads are prevailing!

4 minutes ago, old man said:

Sadly the answer to that is that we have been sold out by our prime minister!

Only politics in this country could have given it all away including our democracy,  Tied into the EU forever, unable to leave ever and having lost any say in our future direction? If that's not a major crime against our Sovereignty it should be?

May should be  booted out! A dead loss!

[pinfireman]

The Eurozone’s economic woes continue to mount as the latest PMI figures sunk to a 49-month low of 51.3 in December. Germany’s PMI also fell to a four-year low at 52.2, while crisis-ridden France entered contraction territory at 49.3.

The poor data comes just a day after Mario Draghi announced that the ECB was ending its €2.5 trillion QE stimulus programme. Eurozone interest rates remain at 0% – they have nowhere to go. No deal could well prove too much of a shock for the fragile Eurozone economy to take. The EU knows this but May’s weakness and her Government’s scandalous failure to prepare adequately for no deal means the UK is powerless to leverage this fact…

This news came out yesterday.

[Retsdon]

16 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

As I have already pointed out, the most recent being Lord Bamford yesterday, in the national press. 

I can see why he's not really a fan of the EU :)) http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-00-1526_en.htm?locale=en

[pinfireman]

News

Official ONS figures released last week have revealed that the UK employment rate is estimated to be 75.7%, a significant increase on last year’s 75.1%, and the highest rate since estimates began in 1971. Similarly unemployment is at near record lows at 4.1%, down from 4.3% this time last year. Wages are also up by 3.3%, the fastest rise in a decade. All despite Brexit…and nothing said on the Remoaner  BBC

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2 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I can see why he's not really a fan of the EU :)) http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-00-1526_en.htm?locale=en

He trades with the REAL WORLD...successfully!

Facebook have published pages political spending for October to December this year, revealing that far and away the biggest spenders were Remain campaigners. The People’s Vote campaign came in with the highest spending of any political organisation, in fact being the only campaign to reach six figures, splurging £150,841 in just over two months. Who funds them…?

Interestingly, the Government has promoted just eleven different adverts over the whole period, compared to a staggering 1,238 from the People’s Vote campaign – around twenty different adverts a day. If we were more conspiratorially-minded we might say that sounds suspiciously like ‘dark ad’ micro-targeting…

The Treasury is under renewed pressure to reveal the models behind its latest round of Project Fear forecasts, with a group of 26 economists including Remain and Leave supporters writing to Treasury Select Committee Chair Nicky Morgan, calling on her to demand that the Treasury makes its models available to “qualified independent economists”. Signatories to the letter include former external members of the Bank of England’s Monetary Policy Committee, former economic advisers to government and the CBI and former Treasury officials. Not just the usual Brexiteer economist crowd…

The letter notes the “widespread unease about the very negative post-Brexit outcomes predicted by the Treasury’s economic model” and complains that the Treasury’s attempts to explain its approach have been impenetrable even to “experienced macroeconomists”. The Treasury’s black box figures are playing a huge role in the Government’s approach to Brexit, they should be subject to full independent scrutiny…

[12gauge82]

54 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

It was the arrogance of your conservative MPs that got yous in this situation telling the uk population to leave The reality is the population believed them And now there panicking regarding not getting there own way So as I say don’t be expecting the EU to give the UK a good deal Here in N Ireland as I said previous post the vote was to stay But the general UK vote was to leave So we had to go with the majority We could debate this forever Brexit is happening GET over IT 

Who's panicking? The only thing I'm concerned about and I think it goes for most leavers on here, is that brexit is delivered, i.e we actually get to leave, I'm more than happy with a brexit on WTO terms, stuff the EU if they don't want to trade with us.

[Gerry78]

Think if u watch the news you will see the whole British cabinet is panicking either brexit is delivered as the terms that were agreed May got the votes there last week every remainer is talking up this deal and that so if that not panicking don’t know what is You can’t say you don’t care about the EU I do and I voted remain If all the rumours are true regarding brexit we should all be worried 

I’ve no love for the conservatives but think thresa may has been left with a lot of **** to deal with Let’s remember it was that pompous *** Cameron who called the referendum and May is taking the heat for it