Brexit - merged threads

[Newbie to this]

Anyone calling for a second referendum is just an anti-democrat. Especially if they want remain to be on it. We've already had a vote on that.

Let's get the first result done first, then we can possibly have another on EU membership in 40 odd years.

For me this isn't about Leave or Remain anymore, this is about our democracy.

I'm a democrat before a leaver.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Rewulf]

I think we are missing the point here.
At what point did the decision about whether  to leave or not, pass from the people to Parliament ?

They have effectively taken control of the process, and are without doubt subverting the majority of the electorates will.

A 'peoples vote' we already had one ,leave won, now we are discussing whether its right or wrong to put remain back on the ballot paper ?
What if 20% back Mays deal, 35 %back WTO  and 45% back remain, does remain win then ? How on earth could you work the options ?
And if the first referendum got ignored, surely if we dont like the second , we can ignore that one too if Parliament dont like it either , Bonkers !

As much as the majority remainer MPs keep prattling on about the 'far right' ERG and how they are disrupting things, they are actually the only section of the Commons that are standing up and respecting the vote.
The TIG group are totally without integrity, and are for the most part liars and hypocrites, Chuka flatly refused the other day to name the groups donors, but its a know fact his previous remain lobby groups took dodgy soros cash, and likely still are.
The Guardian and Indy were in full fake news flow yesterday with lurid stories of whats about to happen, trying to influence peoples thoughts on the state of progress.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/26/hard-brexit-united-ireland-second-referendum-dup

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum

https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/brexit
Corbyn ? Well, his dreams of being first secretary in his socialist state of Britainistan have melted away before his eyes, as have his MPs and supporters.
He now tries too late to rally his party by being the peoples vote supporter he never was.

Dont despair, at the end of the day, I believe we ARE leaving, Parliament HAS to implement the majorities decision, they wont like it, theyve wriggled, and theyll wriggle some more, but to ignore a constitutional vote is the death knell of this style of government, and WILL NOT be ignored.
The tories are smug, because the libs and labs have backed themselves into a firm remain stance that will cost them any hope of achieving government , long into the future.

The tories will need to deselect many of their MPs way before the next election to counter protest votes.

Theres a shake up coming, and not before time.

 

[JohnfromUK]

20 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

At what point did the decision about whether  to leave or not, pass from the people to Parliament ?

Arguably thanks to Gina Miller's stirring ......... though it could also be argued that she simple had the existing law 'clarified'.

 

20 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Dont despair, at the end of the day, I believe we ARE leaving, Parliament HAS to implement the majorities decision, they wont like it, theyve wriggled, and theyll wriggle some more, but to ignore a constitutional vote is the death knell of this style of government, and WILL NOT be ignored.

I'm afraid you may be wrong here, and Parliament will stall the process completely, resulting in a long delay and an eventual further referendum.  If this happens the EU will seize the opportunity to nail us to the floor.

 

20 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The tories are smug, because the libs and labs have backed themselves into a firm remain stance that will cost them any hope of achieving government , long into the future.

The tories will need to deselect many of their MPs way before the next election to counter protest votes.

As I have stated before on this thread - the Tories, like them or loathe them are the only party who would even give a passable form of Brexit;

• LibDem, SNP, Green, TIG are all firmly remain
• Labour is all mixed up - somewhere between Remain and a Customs Union/Single Market 'deal' - which is not really Brexit - and (under Corbyn anyway) they will oppose anything anyone else is trying to do - that has ALWAYS been Corbyn's way.
• The Tories could deliver a sort of Brexit with a deal, or possibly a 'no deal' Brexit IF and ONLY IF they get support from ERG, some Leave Labour members, and the DUP.

If this runs to another election, anything other than a significant Tory majority will mean no Brexit because there are only a few 'credible' outcomes;

• Tory (under whoever the leader then is) majority.  Possible Brexit
• Labour majority.  Very limited Brexit with Customs Union and Single Market membership - very likely similar problems to what May has now with no internal party majority for any Brexit.
• Tory led minority.  The problem we have now, likely no real Brexit as no control in Parliament
• Labour led minority.  No Brexit as they would be dependent on LibDem, SNP and TIG - who are all firm Remainers

The 'odds' for a real Brexit are looking very slim.

Edited February 26, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I'm afraid you may be wrong here, and Parliament will stall the process completely, resulting in a long delay and an eventual further referendum.  If this happens the EU will seize the opportunity to nail us to the floor.

Then Parliament will reap what it sows.

5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The 'odds' for a real Brexit are looking very slim.

As above, does Parliament seriously believe over half the electorate of this country will let that slide ?
I think the slippery eels of the political class will choose self preservation first.

[mick miller]

Well, looks like my feet are safe. I said at the outset that, if brexit is allowed to happen, I would eat them, looks like my understanding of democracy was perfectly formed at the time. 

It ain't going to happen chaps.

Edited February 26, 2019 by mick miller

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I see the horrible little **** "Sir Kier Starmer is doing the rounds of all the TV companies this morning preaching his remainist rubbish!

He was the worst Head of the CPS ever..........and gets a stinking knighthood for it! He,s a slimy liar!

3 hours ago, Yellow Bear said:

Like the Kinnocks I think he has his eye firmly on the gravy train when he has destroyed the economy of the UK

Bet he has a holiday home in Europe?

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

You're right. Now being reported that May will rule out no deal in an attempt to prevent further rebellion and defection from her own party.

Regardless of where you lie on Brexit we have all been played to a greater or lesser extent.

Regarding the point about the choices in a further referendum, a binary choice appears wholly insufficient and the only way to settle this once and for all would be something along the lines of: leave on the basis of the withdrawal agreement, leave on the basis of WTO terms or revoke article 50. Surely this would not be beyond the wit of the UK electorate.

Totally accept that a choice between the withdrawal agreement and revoking article 50 is not acceptable to some Brexiteers but a choice between the withdrawal agreement and leave on WTO terms is probably not acceptable to Remainers (since it effectively excludes them or worse still heavily biases the outcome in favour of the withdrawal agreement on the basis of representing the lesser of the two evils).

Surely the only way to resolve this and credibly claim that democracy has truly been served is through a three way choice (or two stages of binary choices), regardless of the outcome this is possibly the only way to bring the different sides together moving forward? 

Revoke Article 50 ?  Never! We have already voted to Leave!  To put that on a ballot paper is the biggest sell-out of all !

[Raja Clavata]

4 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Well, looks like my feet are safe. I said at the outset that, if brexit is allowed to happen, I would eat them, looks like my understanding of democracy was perfectly formed at the time. 

It ain't going to happen chaps.

I think you're right. I made a diary entry on 26th June 2016 - "I don't know the exact mechanism by which it will be achieved but I don't believe Brexit will happen"

Edited February 26, 2019 by Raja Clavata
26th not 23rd

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

You're right. Now being reported that May will rule out no deal in an attempt to prevent further rebellion and defection from her own party.

Regardless of where you lie on Brexit we have all been played to a greater or lesser extent.

Regarding the point about the choices in a further referendum, a binary choice appears wholly insufficient and the only way to settle this once and for all would be something along the lines of: leave on the basis of the withdrawal agreement, leave on the basis of WTO terms or revoke article 50. Surely this would not be beyond the wit of the UK electorate.

Totally accept that a choice between the withdrawal agreement and revoking article 50 is not acceptable to some Brexiteers but a choice between the withdrawal agreement and leave on WTO terms is probably not acceptable to Remainers (since it effectively excludes them or worse still heavily biases the outcome in favour of the withdrawal agreement on the basis of representing the lesser of the two evils).

Surely the only way to resolve this and credibly claim that democracy has truly been served is through a three way choice (or two stages of binary choices), regardless of the outcome this is possibly the only way to bring the different sides together moving forward? 

A three way choice effectively kills Leave ! No way!

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

If there is another referendum, democracy will not have been served. The last vote was on the basis of a once in a generation. Anyone who failed to grasp what was actually said is an idiot.

Correct!

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I cannot agree with you on this - because a 3 way vote with two 'leave' options and one 'remain' option will split the leave vote and almost guarantee a 'remain' win.

There has already been a leave/remain vote; it was won by leave.  We should therefore leave.

The only real credible vote now would be on how we leave -  'leave on no deal/WTO' versus 'leave on May's deal'.

Whilst I agree this would not be 'acceptable to Remainers', Remain had their chance in the original vote - which they lost (and by the way I voted Remain).  They should (as I have done) accept that outcome and work towards delivering the best outcome from the referendum verdict NOT seek to overturn it just because the didn't like it.

Once again, you hit the nail on the head!

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Here I'm 100% in agreement with you.  Remember also that 'no deal' saves £39 billion (in theory anyway).  That can go a long way towards easing transition troubles.

The other disgrace is that Corbyn, who has always in history been opposed to the EU is now offering a second referendum - which if rumour is right will offer remain as an option, the other option likely being a 'customs union' (Brexit In Name Only) signing us into all the rules, all the payments and having no say in making the rules of how the money will be spent.  He has done this purely putting his personal want to be Prime Minister above the interests of the country.

Absolutely correct!

[Raja Clavata]

What do you guys think would be the effect of us not leaving? I understand that there is a view that democracy would be over as far as some people are concerned but what would actually happen / change?

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

I think he also did it in an attempt to negate the Independent Group and stem the flow of defectors from his party.

Regarding the £39billion, need to be mindful that we're not holding that in a Treasury savings account and it represents about three times our annual net contribution to the EU. So if we don't cough it up then we shouldn't assume it'll be readily available to be spent elsewhere, but I do get your point.

We should also bear in mind that there is still time left to run on the May deal so it could evolve to include some kind of clause or version of retaining customs union and everything else that goes with it, so we could actually see convergence between May and Corbyn on this

FWIW I voted remain, not because I'm pro EU, far from it, but because I believe we are better off being on the periphery of the EU when it fails rather than being seen as the catalyst / blamed for it failing. Given that we are largely protected by not being in the single currency or part of Schengen etc. we'd be better off than most of the member states.

When it collapses, as IT WILL ! we should not be anywhere near it! You don,t stand next to a bomb when it explodes!

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

Anyone calling for a second referendum is just an anti-democrat. Especially if they want remain to be on it. We've already had a vote on that.

Let's get the first result done first, then we can possibly have another on EU membership in 40 odd years.

For me this isn't about Leave or Remain anymore, this is about our democracy.

I'm a democrat before a leaver.

Correct!  This would be the end of democracy (something that Corbyn relishes!)

47 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I think we are missing the point here.
At what point did the decision about whether  to leave or not, pass from the people to Parliament ?

They have effectively taken control of the process, and are without doubt subverting the majority of the electorates will.

A 'peoples vote' we already had one ,leave won, now we are discussing whether its right or wrong to put remain back on the ballot paper ?
What if 20% back Mays deal, 35 %back WTO  and 45% back remain, does remain win then ? How on earth could you work the options ?
And if the first referendum got ignored, surely if we dont like the second , we can ignore that one too if Parliament dont like it either , Bonkers !

As much as the majority remainer MPs keep prattling on about the 'far right' ERG and how they are disrupting things, they are actually the only section of the Commons that are standing up and respecting the vote.
The TIG group are totally without integrity, and are for the most part liars and hypocrites, Chuka flatly refused the other day to name the groups donors, but its a know fact his previous remain lobby groups took dodgy soros cash, and likely still are.
The Guardian and Indy were in full fake news flow yesterday with lurid stories of whats about to happen, trying to influence peoples thoughts on the state of progress.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/26/hard-brexit-united-ireland-second-referendum-dup

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum

https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/brexit
Corbyn ? Well, his dreams of being first secretary in his socialist state of Britainistan have melted away before his eyes, as have his MPs and supporters.
He now tries too late to rally his party by being the peoples vote supporter he never was.

Dont despair, at the end of the day, I believe we ARE leaving, Parliament HAS to implement the majorities decision, they wont like it, theyve wriggled, and theyll wriggle some more, but to ignore a constitutional vote is the death knell of this style of government, and WILL NOT be ignored.
The tories are smug, because the libs and labs have backed themselves into a firm remain stance that will cost them any hope of achieving government , long into the future.

The tories will need to deselect many of their MPs way before the next election to counter protest votes.

Theres a shake up coming, and not before time.

 

The de-selection should start NOW!  Join the local party, attend the Annual General Meeting, and vote to de-select the candidate, if said person is a Remainer! It,s NOT rocket science!

[pinfireman]

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

What do you guys think would be the effect of us not leaving? I understand that there is a view that democracy would be over as far as some people are concerned but what would actually happen / change?

It would give this country fresh impetus to go out into the world again, and succeed! Like we did for 250 years PRIOR to joining the EEC (now EU)! And we would be a FREE & Sovereign nation again! Not just a little yellow star on a blue rag!

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

What do you guys think would be the effect of us not leaving? I understand that there is a view that democracy would be over as far as some people are concerned but what would actually happen / change?

Some of the things that (in my view) will happen to the EU (and so to us whilst we are still in it) are:

• Continuation of their 'Ever Closer Union' aims
• Beginnings of a 'European Defence Force'
• Removal of the ability to 'veto' and 'opt out' of EU policy/decisions
• Ever increasing EU budget (taking more control of the money pot and leaving less with individual governments)
• Pressure for greater compliance with EU laws/rules
• Further EU funded moving of industry to 'less favoured areas' (from their present locations)
• Further taking funds from the money generating states (Germany, UK, Holland, Scandinavian countries, France) and handing to less developed countries

In other words more of what we didn't like about the EU.

[Vince Green]

The real tragedy in all of this is that after the referendum Farage "retired" and UKIP decended into Looney Tunes. If they were still up and running, banging the Brexit drum none of this would be happening.

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Some of the things that (in my view) will happen to the EU (and so to us whilst we are still in it) are:

• Continuation of their 'Ever Closer Union' aims
• Beginnings of a 'European Defence Force'
• Removal of the ability to 'veto' and 'opt out' of EU policy/decisions
• Ever increasing EU budget (taking more control of the money pot and leaving less with individual governments)
• Pressure for greater compliance with EU laws/rules
• Further EU funded moving of industry to 'less favoured areas' (from their present locations)
• Further taking funds from the money generating states (Germany, UK, Holland, Scandinavian countries, France) and handing to less developed countries

In other words more of what we didn't like about the EU.

 

[Newbie to this]

Just now, Vince Green said:

The real tragedy in all of this is that after the referendum Farage "retired" and UKIP decended into Looney Tunes. If they were still up and running, banging the Brexit drum none of this would be happening.

 

I think you may be right there

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

The real tragedy in all of this is that after the referendum Farage "retired" and UKIP decended into Looney Tunes.

Again - as I have said before on this thread, I have time for Farage and his views - and he expresses them well.

BUT he has never managed to form a credible party,  The rest have been somewhere between a largely anonymous shambles and a few 'thugs' known only for all the wrong reasons.  Sadly my conclusion is that Nigel Farage is one of those people who I believe cannot successfully 'work with others in a team' - which is essential to have any party with credibility to win seats in Parliament.

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Some of the things that (in my view) will happen to the EU (and so to us whilst we are still in it) are:

• Continuation of their 'Ever Closer Union' aims
• Beginnings of a 'European Defence Force'
• Removal of the ability to 'veto' and 'opt out' of EU policy/decisions
• Ever increasing EU budget (taking more control of the money pot and leaving less with individual governments)
• Pressure for greater compliance with EU laws/rules
• Further EU funded moving of industry to 'less favoured areas' (from their present locations)
• Further taking funds from the money generating states (Germany, UK, Holland, Scandinavian countries, France) and handing to less developed countries

In other words more of what we didn't like about the EU.

Do you think some kind of compromise could be achieved, something like going back with the original vetoes that Cameron originally sought with some amendments perhaps - do you think that could be acceptable to the majority of those who voted out on basis of WTO terms? To be clear I'm not advocating this but just interested in exploring the scenarios in the event of Brexit stalemate.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I would think the EU would see that as a weakening of our position much like taking no deal out of the equation!

They will just take us for everything and give nothing!

 

PM TM due in Parliament to make an update. Let's hope she doesn't capitulate!

Edited February 26, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Do you think some kind of compromise could be achieved, something like going back with the original vetoes that Cameron originally sought with some amendments perhaps

Firstly, I believe that now we are where we are - and the EU have seen what Parliaments views are and can see the 'no deal' taken off the table - I can see the EU hardening their position and giving nothing (along with snide remarks from the detestable and despicable Tusk and Verhofstat.  They have effectively won - and in my view because;

1. Our negotiating team have been far to weak and ready to give in - led by remain believing civil servants
2. Parliament has done it's best to undermine any strong negotiating position
3. The likes of Blair, Corbyn, Starmer have been in and out of the EU offices undermining the Government position - the EU should NEVER have spoken to anyone outside (Her Majesty's) elected Government
4. They held to their 'red lines' whilst we threw all of ours away
5. When May did go to the Country for backing - all she got was a kick in the teeth.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Here it comes, we will NOT be LEAVING!!!!!!!

Laura bloody Kunsberg is beside herself with glee!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Sold down the river!

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

What do you guys think would be the effect of us not leaving?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Some prawn of a man who claims to speak for 7000 Lithuanians in Kings Lynn says he reckons with a peoples vote they can take it back to how it was!

 

 

Bend over her it comes again!

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

7000 Lithuanians in Kings Lynn says he reckons with a peoples vote they can take it back to how it was

They cannot vote: https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/who-is-eligible-to-vote-at-a-uk-general-election

 

[oowee]

The prime minister said she will put her withdrawal agreement - including any changes she has agreed with the EU - to a meaningful vote on 12 March.

If that fails, MPs will be offered two separate votes:

• One, on 13 March, on whether MPs support a no-deal Brexit - so the UK would "only leave without a deal on 29 March if there is explicit consent in the House for that outcome"
• If that fails, then MPs will get a vote the following day on requesting an extension to the two-year Article 50 negotiation process to delay EU withdrawal beyond 29 March

"Let me be clear, I do not want to see Article 50 extended," she told MPs.

🤐

 

[ShootingEgg]

27 minutes ago, oowee said:

The prime minister said she will put her withdrawal agreement - including any changes she has agreed with the EU - to a meaningful vote on 12 March.

If that fails, MPs will be offered two separate votes:

• One, on 13 March, on whether MPs support a no-deal Brexit - so the UK would "only leave without a deal on 29 March if there is explicit consent in the House for that outcome"
• If that fails, then MPs will get a vote the following day on requesting an extension to the two-year Article 50 negotiation process to delay EU withdrawal beyond 29 March

"Let me be clear, I do not want to see Article 50 extended," she told MPs.

🤐

 

But i dont see a no deal being voted for by our spineless politicians. So we just hang in no mans land...