Brexit - merged threads

[Rewulf]

On 24/02/2019 at 07:07, Jaymo said:

You still don’t understand the way laws are ratified under the EU, do you! Individual member states have the right to veto, if the suggested law is contrary to the ‘states’ wishes.

Lets dispel this myth about our 'veto'

At the moment we can only veto very important things like taxation and defence, make no mistake this is set to change within the surviving EU member nations.
Other laws pass a 2 stage process.

The UK can veto some laws alone, but needs three allies to block others

Not all EU decisions affecting the UK can be passed against its wishes. Some important issues can only be decided if every country voting agrees.

These areas include foreign affairs, taxation, justice and the EU budget. If the UK is adamantly opposed to a law requiring unanimous approval, it's unlikely to make it as far as a vote.

But in other areas, majorities are enough. Under the new system for majority voting, a law has to pass two hurdles.

First, 16 out of 28 member states have to vote for it. In special cases, it's 21 out of 28.

The UK naturally counts for only 1/28^th from this point of view.

But there is a second condition: population matters. Member states representing 65% of all the people in the EU have to vote for a law before it passes.

The ability of the UK to combine with a couple of other big countries to block a law it doesn't like is made more difficult by a rider to this rule. You can get to 36% against a proposed law from just three countries, but they won't be able to block it unless joined by at least one more.

In other words, if fewer than four countries oppose or abstain on a law in the Council, it passes.

This is from that well know 'independent' EU funded fact site, Full Fact.

The whole issue is moot , because in a months time were coming out of the whole undemocratic mess, and I will watch with some amusement as it tears itself apart.
Yes there will be fallout, its going to hurt financial institutions, but with us in it , or out of it , its going to happen.

[Scully]

21 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The whole issue is moot , because in a months time were coming out of the whole undemocratic mess, and I will watch with some amusement as it tears itself apart.
Yes there will be fallout, its going to hurt financial institutions, but with us in it , or out of it , its going to happen.

Roll on; I can't wait, and will go out and celebrate when this happens. 👍

[Rewulf]

Just now, Scully said:

Roll on; I can't wait, and will go out and celebrate when this happens. 👍

I did think about throwing a party, but dont want to upset the neighbours with fireworks at midnight 

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I did think about throwing a party, but dont want to upset the neighbours with fireworks at midnight 

There won't be fireworks at midnight as I'll still be in the pub....with the neighbours! 🙂

[old man]

21 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Yes, just ask Hungary and Poland. They have had their voting rights removed.

And, sadly, we are being lined up by our own politicos to have the same applied?

Constantly paying out with no say?

[panoma1]

It is reported that Labour will now back a second referendum!

Edited February 25, 2019 by panoma1

[muncher]

They will shaft us,of that I have no doubt.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

59 minutes ago, muncher said:

They will shaft us,of that I have no doubt.

I think you are correct, the politicians seem intent on telling us they know what we want better than we do and seem extremely keen for the country to keep bending over and taking one rather than stand up to the outdated 4th Reich!

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

It is reported that Labour will now back a second referendum!

Corbyn hasn't got the balls to say what he wants and try to overthrow Brexit, but the new independent group has forwarded the proposal and he has put forth that the party will back them!

 

"Honest labour voters, we didn't put forward the proposal, don't blame us..." 

 

Corbyn deserves the noose! 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said:

Corbyn deserves the noose! 

He'd slide out of it - like an eel.

[panoma1]

This looks like the endgame......the majority of MP's in Westminster are, and always have been remainers! May is offering the country a deal no one will accept, The EU have and are giving nothing! The only thing left is to leave with "no deal"...... but Westminster will not allow that, and the EU know it! So they will us give nothing, and the treacherous MP's who have given away our threatened "no deal" bargaining position, will, I suspect at some point (probably after postponing Brexit day) re-run the referendum....with the question....not whether to accept Mays carp deal or leave with no deal.....but accept Mays carp deal or no Brexit!

Game set and match....democracy has been ignored and the MP's will have overturned the people's decision!

 

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by panoma1

[pinfireman]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I did think about throwing a party, but dont want to upset the neighbours with fireworks at midnight 

If they are Leavers, they will understand, if Remoaners, who cares?

8 hours ago, old man said:

And, sadly, we are being lined up by our own politicos to have the same applied?

Constantly paying out with no say?

Correct!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I see the horrible little **** "Sir Kier Starmer is doing the rounds of all the TV companies this morning preaching his remainist rubbish!

[Yellow Bear]

11 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I see the horrible little **** "Sir Kier Starmer is doing the rounds of all the TV companies this morning preaching his remainist rubbish!

Like the Kinnocks I think he has his eye firmly on the gravy train when he has destroyed the economy of the UK

[TIGHTCHOKE]

He really is trying to get Project Fear 3 going now.

[Raja Clavata]

13 hours ago, panoma1 said:

This looks like the endgame......the majority of MP's in Westminster are, and always have been remainers! May is offering the country a deal no one will accept, The EU have and are giving nothing! The only thing left is to leave with "no deal"...... but Westminster will not allow that, and the EU know it! So they will us give nothing, and the treacherous MP's who have given away our threatened "no deal" bargaining position, will, I suspect at some point (probably after postponing Brexit day) re-run the referendum....with the question....not whether to accept Mays carp deal or leave with no deal.....but accept Mays carp deal or no Brexit!

Game set and match....democracy has been ignored and the MP's will have overturned the people's decision!

 

 

You're right. Now being reported that May will rule out no deal in an attempt to prevent further rebellion and defection from her own party.

Regardless of where you lie on Brexit we have all been played to a greater or lesser extent.

Regarding the point about the choices in a further referendum, a binary choice appears wholly insufficient and the only way to settle this once and for all would be something along the lines of: leave on the basis of the withdrawal agreement, leave on the basis of WTO terms or revoke article 50. Surely this would not be beyond the wit of the UK electorate.

Totally accept that a choice between the withdrawal agreement and revoking article 50 is not acceptable to some Brexiteers but a choice between the withdrawal agreement and leave on WTO terms is probably not acceptable to Remainers (since it effectively excludes them or worse still heavily biases the outcome in favour of the withdrawal agreement on the basis of representing the lesser of the two evils).

Surely the only way to resolve this and credibly claim that democracy has truly been served is through a three way choice (or two stages of binary choices), regardless of the outcome this is possibly the only way to bring the different sides together moving forward? 

[Gordon R]

If there is another referendum, democracy will not have been served. The last vote was on the basis of a once in a generation. Anyone who failed to grasp what was actually said is an idiot.

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Regarding the point about the choices in a further referendum, a binary choice appears wholly insufficient and the only way to settle this once and for all would be something along the lines of: leave on the basis of the withdrawal agreement, leave on the basis of WTO terms or revoke article 50. Surely this would not be beyond the wit of the UK electorate.

Totally accept that a choice between the withdrawal agreement and revoking article 50 is not acceptable to some Brexiteers but a choice between the withdrawal agreement and leave on WTO terms is probably not acceptable to Remainers (since it effectively excludes them or worse still heavily biases the outcome in favour of the withdrawal agreement on the basis of representing the lesser of the two evils).

Surely the only way to resolve this and credibly claim that democracy has truly been served is through a three way choice (or two stages of binary choices), regardless of the outcome this is possibly the only way to bring the different sides together moving forward?

I cannot agree with you on this - because a 3 way vote with two 'leave' options and one 'remain' option will split the leave vote and almost guarantee a 'remain' win.

There has already been a leave/remain vote; it was won by leave.  We should therefore leave.

The only real credible vote now would be on how we leave -  'leave on no deal/WTO' versus 'leave on May's deal'.

Whilst I agree this would not be 'acceptable to Remainers', Remain had their chance in the original vote - which they lost (and by the way I voted Remain).  They should (as I have done) accept that outcome and work towards delivering the best outcome from the referendum verdict NOT seek to overturn it just because the didn't like it.

[panoma1]

Conspiracy theory.......the EU won't give Westminster any acceptable terms because we are leaving, and they don't want to lose their cash cow......the majority remainer MP's in Westminster won't allow the UK to leave the EU without a deal............the EU won't move, Westminster won't allow us to leave, allegedly unless they do!

So the EU are giving Westminster, the majority of whom are remainers, the means to subvert the democratic will of the UK people, by preventing Brexit!

Edited February 26, 2019 by panoma1

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, panoma1 said:

Conspiracy theory.......the EU won't give Westminster any acceptable terms because we are leaving......the majority remainer MP's in Westminster won't allow the UK to leave the EU without a deal............the EU won't move, Westminster won't allow us to leave, allegedly unless they do!

So the EU are giving Westminster, the majority of whom are remainers, the means to subvert the democratic will of the UK people, by preventing Brexit!

Yes indeed, hence the importance of maintaining the possibility of a "NO DEAL" exit.

The EU really fear us going, they will stall and find a way to delay, Mrs May is getting the blame so far. Hopefully the Remoaners might just realise in time that we are currently beholden to a massive white elephant and if we do get out, other countries may well decide to follow.

No Deal here we come.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

So the EU are giving Westminster, the majority of whom are remainers, the means to subvert the democratic will of the UK people

I would put it another way; Westminster, by forcing the taking off the table of 'no deal' are taking the pressure (of no deal) off the EU and thus enabling the EU to avoid giving sensible concessions.  The EU don't want no deal (and the loss of £39 billion that goes with it) and that was our best card in our rather weak hand.

[panoma1]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I would put it another way; Westminster, by forcing the taking off the table of 'no deal' are taking the pressure (of no deal) off the EU and thus enabling the EU to avoid giving sensible concessions.  The EU don't want no deal (and the loss of £39 billion that goes with it) and that was our best card in our rather weak hand.

I agree, that is what I posted 14 hrs ago! 

[Raja Clavata]

18 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I cannot agree with you on this - because a 3 way vote with two 'leave' options and one 'remain' option will split the leave vote and almost guarantee a 'remain' win.

There has already been a leave/remain vote; it was won by leave.  We should therefore leave.

The only real credible vote now would be on how we leave -  'leave on no deal/WTO' versus 'leave on May's deal'.

Whilst I agree this would not be 'acceptable to Remainers', Remain had their chance in the original vote - which they lost (and by the way I voted Remain).  They should (as I have done) accept that outcome and work towards delivering the best outcome from the referendum verdict NOT seek to overturn it just because the didn't like it.

OK but isn't another way of looking at the 3 way vote that it's two options of remain and only one of leave. The May deal doesn't deliver on what people who voted leave voted for in 2016 does it? So that looks like paying lip service to leave democracy in my book but it's still remain in all but name.

I think they key point here is that removing no deal from the table now removes our only bargaining tool with the EU prematurely. Again the government putting party interests over national ones...

Edited February 26, 2019 by Raja Clavata
now, not no

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

I think they key point here is that removing no deal from the table no removes our only bargaining tool with the EU prematurely. Again the government putting party interests over national ones...

Here I'm 100% in agreement with you.  Remember also that 'no deal' saves £39 billion (in theory anyway).  That can go a long way towards easing transition troubles.

The other disgrace is that Corbyn, who has always in history been opposed to the EU is now offering a second referendum - which if rumour is right will offer remain as an option, the other option likely being a 'customs union' (Brexit In Name Only) signing us into all the rules, all the payments and having no say in making the rules of how the money will be spent.  He has done this purely putting his personal want to be Prime Minister above the interests of the country.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

The other disgrace is that Corbyn, who has always in history been opposed to the EU is now offering a second referendum - which if rumour is right will offer remain as an option, the other option likely being a 'customs union' (Brexit In Name Only) signing us into all the rules, all the payments and having no say in making the rules of how the money will be spent.  He has done this purely putting his personal want to be Prime Minister above the interests of the country.

I think he also did it in an attempt to negate the Independent Group and stem the flow of defectors from his party.

Regarding the £39billion, need to be mindful that we're not holding that in a Treasury savings account and it represents about three times our annual net contribution to the EU. So if we don't cough it up then we shouldn't assume it'll be readily available to be spent elsewhere, but I do get your point.

We should also bear in mind that there is still time left to run on the May deal so it could evolve to include some kind of clause or version of retaining customs union and everything else that goes with it, so we could actually see convergence between May and Corbyn on this

FWIW I voted remain, not because I'm pro EU, far from it, but because I believe we are better off being on the periphery of the EU when it fails rather than being seen as the catalyst / blamed for it failing. Given that we are largely protected by not being in the single currency or part of Schengen etc. we'd be better off than most of the member states.