Brexit - merged threads

[oowee]

It's the parliamentary system that is failing rather than the MP's. There is no mechanism for them to deal with a cross party mandate (unclear proposal for Brexit) that is undefined.

The failing is the method by which the referendum was introduced and then a50 implemented. The origin for this is the Tories with JRM and the like at the helm. 

 

[JohnfromUK]

The answer must be something like electing a new Pope.  Lock all MPs in the Commons, close all the bars and restaurants to serve basic food only (e.g. meat, boiled taties and two veg) until they come up with a cast iron way of completing the referendum outcome.  Oh - and no salary until done either as they won't need it locked in there.

No result in 1 week - remove 'basic food' and replace by MacDonalds.  That should sort the wretches.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

The answer must be something like electing a new Pope.  Lock all MPs in the Commons, close all the bars and restaurants to serve basic food only (e.g. meat, boiled taties and two veg) until they come up with a cast iron way of completing the referendum outcome.  Oh - and no salary until done either as they won't need it locked in there.

No result in 1 week - remove 'basic food' and replace by MacDonalds.  That should sort the wretches.

Now were talking. Wait for the white smoke out of the top of the Elizabeth Tower.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Wait for the white smoke out of the top of the Elizabeth Tower.

Just as long as it doesn't get misinterpreted as dust stirred up by all the hot air caused by them actually doing something useful.

[old man]

10 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Tomorrow MP’s will vote that they won’t allow a No Deal Brexit to happen. 

 

The EU will laugh themselves silly, with a negotiation against a country that wants everything, accepts nothing and isn’t willing to walk away. The EU can do whatever they want. 

 

Possibility now of a General Election, Corbyn will come out backing remain, the die hard labour supporters will never change their vote to Tory, and he will get in, and then we’ll all be finished!! 

Methinks, we possibly finished already?

[Dekers]

No doubt that we are in a shocking state of affairs, this is a slimy path to staying in!  

[old man]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

The arrogance of these MPs is probably the most revealing aspect of this whole sorry tale. What they don't realise is the damage they are doing to public confidence in the parliamentary system. Do they believe that by some sort of trickery they can fudge a vote through parliament all the anger will just disappear and it will all be forgotten?

They are not just storing up trouble for the future, they are piling it up it up in heaps. 

I think the Seriously Arsey Squad are on full alert already?

[Mice!]

A **** of a deal to a polished **** of a deal 😄😄😄 no wonder it got voted down, and that's from a conservative MP

[Rewulf]

10 hours ago, Mice! said:

It was talked about as an option on the news tonight?? A GE, obviously at the moment May doesn't have the majority to get what she wants, if it goes to a GE and she gets the boot then it's someone else's problem, she can say she tried her best, but there were too many people wanting different things?

The news can say what it likes, doesnt mean its going to happen.
There can be no GE without an A50 extension, its completely impossible, due to the 25 day rule.

There can be no extension without unanimous 27 nation approval, and this completely depends on what the extension is for.

There can be no extension without a parliamentary majority voting for it.

Parliament can vote to remove the no deal option, that doesnt necessarily mean that removing it will happen, at this time it would be illegal.
The mechanism to remove it could, and would be challenged, it could end up at the high court, this takes TIME.
Time they dont have before the 29th.
Again it would need an extension to get it through.

Ifs and buts I know, but dont let them make you think that parliament can just vote for something and then it happens, thats not how it works.
And its all very well the political correspondents saying this or that will happen, these are vague predictions and opinion.

Interestingly the Mogg has said this morning that he would support an extension to further prepare the UK for no deal.
Knowing full well that the EU would never allow an A50 extension for this purpose, clever Moggy !

As the late great Admiral Akbar once said 'Its a trap!'

[Mice!]

It was on the BBC special report last night, talking about a 3 month extension during which a GE could be triggered?

Personally i can't see what good an extension does, they've had two years and achieved nothing so far it seems?

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

It was on the BBC special report last night, talking about a 3 month extension during which a GE could be triggered?

Thats what the leftys at the Beeb would LIKE to see happen, give Corbyn a chance to get his party together.
They are deluded, labour will lose 20 -30 seats if they call a GE anytime soon, Corbyn knows this, but is playing distraction politics, because he literally has nothing left in the inventory.

 

5 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Personally i can't see what good an extension does, they've had two years and achieved nothing so far it seems?

Exactly.

What has been achieved is we have been backed into no deal, by design or accident Im not sure, but the reluctance of Mays government to look at any other deal besides the hated Chequers deal, makes me suspect the former.

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

It's the parliamentary system that is failing rather than the MP's. There is no mechanism for them to deal with a cross party mandate (unclear proposal for Brexit) that is undefined.

The failing is the method by which the referendum was introduced and then a50 implemented. The origin for this is the Tories with JRM and the like at the helm. 

 

No the failing is by all those in power trying to block brexit, its crystal clear, the people were asked via referendum and they answered clearly, either a free trade deal with the EU or we leave, they have tried every trick in the book to not deliver. The UK population is not stupid, this country has a huge political uprising coming and I'm just glad there are people like Farage out there to give the people an outlet otherwise I could see a far right party getting elected in the future. 

I note David Cameron has stuck his oar in saying that we should rule out no deal and push for an extension, he really has a cheek, he sulked off when he failed to rig the referendum and is now offering his advice, he's completely irrelevant and should go and live in a monastery in shame for the rest of his day's. 

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

he's completely irrelevant and should go and live in a monastery in shame for the rest of his day's.

I could imagine him liking that !

Take blair with him too , whilst hes awaiting trial.

[JohnfromUK]

Sir Christopher Meyer (former UK ambassador to both the US and Germany, and former Downing Street press office) was interviewed this morning on Radio 4.  I didn't catch the whole interview, but he was very clear about 2 things;

1. ON NO ACCOUNT should we take a 'no deal leave' off the table - which would signal to the EU that they have 'won'.  It is our strongest card and a "no deal" would be quite workable if we ended up there, but he would prefer a 'deal'
2. Moving to a deal is now ABSOLUTELY FOR THE EU to do.  UK Parliament has clearly rejected the present deal offered as it now stands.  They must move on the backstop - in which case they could have a deal and the £39 billion that goes with it.

His view is that May should now tell the EU that the only possibility of a deal is if the backstop is removed - and if that isn't done, we leave with "no deal".  He did not believe the EU would allow an extension unless there was a clear and obvious chance of an agreement before the May EU elections.  They really do not want the UK still wrangling Brexit 'deals' with them sending MPs into their Parliament causing disruption.

IF we do leave with no deal, he firmly believed that both the EU and non EU countries will want to speedily set up direct trading deals with the UK.

[pinfireman]

15 hours ago, oowee said:

I don't think Putin is worried yet.

Don,t beat around the bush, say what you mean.

15 hours ago, Rewulf said:

That would be good. 

 

Putin relies on a stable Europe to buy his gas, do you believe that brexit or European strife helps him? 

Give me the scenarios, I simply can't see them. 

Correct!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

51 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Sir Christopher Meyer (former UK ambassador to both the US and Germany, and former Downing Street press office) was interviewed this morning on Radio 4.  I didn't catch the whole interview, but he was very clear about 2 things;

1. ON NO ACCOUNT should we take a 'no deal leave' off the table - which would signal to the EU that they have 'won'.  It is our strongest card and a "no deal" would be quite workable if we ended up there, but he would prefer a 'deal'
2. Moving to a deal is now ABSOLUTELY FOR THE EU to do.  UK Parliament has clearly rejected the present deal offered as it now stands.  They must move on the backstop - in which case they could have a deal and the £39 billion that goes with it.

His view is that May should now tell the EU that the only possibility of a deal is if the backstop is removed - and if that isn't done, we leave with "no deal".  He did not believe the EU would allow an extension unless there was a clear and obvious chance of an agreement before the May EU elections.  They really do not want the UK still wrangling Brexit 'deals' with them sending MPs into their Parliament causing disruption.

IF we do leave with no deal, he firmly believed that both the EU and non EU countries will want to speedily set up direct trading deals with the UK.

Unfortunately I think the removal of the NO DEAL Option will go through in the vote later today, followed by a vote for the extension of Article 50 in a later vote.

[pinfireman]

14 hours ago, mick miller said:

Brexit is officially finished. It's over. Time to move on and make sure that your local MP never gets elected into Parliament again.

 

The Brexit we fought for may be in dire difficulties, but the fight will NEVER be over until we are free of the EU completely! As you rightly say, the next targets are the treacherous MPs who betrayed the democratic will of the people!

5 hours ago, oowee said:

It's the parliamentary system that is failing rather than the MP's. There is no mechanism for them to deal with a cross party mandate (unclear proposal for Brexit) that is undefined.

The failing is the method by which the referendum was introduced and then a50 implemented. The origin for this is the Tories with JRM and the like at the helm. 

 

There speaks a Remoaner! Everything is Mogg,s fault. The fault of those who want to honour the peoples vote to Leave! Typical.

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

The news can say what it likes, doesnt mean its going to happen.
There can be no GE without an A50 extension, its completely impossible, due to the 25 day rule.

There can be no extension without unanimous 27 nation approval, and this completely depends on what the extension is for.

There can be no extension without a parliamentary majority voting for it.

Parliament can vote to remove the no deal option, that doesnt necessarily mean that removing it will happen, at this time it would be illegal.
The mechanism to remove it could, and would be challenged, it could end up at the high court, this takes TIME.
Time they dont have before the 29th.
Again it would need an extension to get it through.

Ifs and buts I know, but dont let them make you think that parliament can just vote for something and then it happens, thats not how it works.
And its all very well the political correspondents saying this or that will happen, these are vague predictions and opinion.

Interestingly the Mogg has said this morning that he would support an extension to further prepare the UK for no deal.
Knowing full well that the EU would never allow an A50 extension for this purpose, clever Moggy !

As the late great Admiral Akbar once said 'Its a trap!'

Correct!

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I could imagine him liking that !

Take blair with him too , whilst hes awaiting trial.

Well, you know what all those monks got up to on dark winters nights! 

[Gordon R]

Quote

It's the parliamentary system that is failing rather than the MP's. There is no mechanism for them to deal with a cross party mandate (unclear proposal for Brexit) that is undefined.

No - it's the MPs. The Referendum result was clear. Both main parties stood on a manifesto honouring the result. There were no alternative "leave" proposals put forward.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Gordon R said:

No - it's the MPs. The Referendum result was clear. Both main parties stood on a manifesto honouring the result. There were no alternative "leave" proposals put forward.

There were no alternative leave proposals put forward by the Tories. There are no credible proposals from the opposition. There is somewhere a leave deal that would suit the majority of the house. This will require some tough choices. The house has no mechanism to define it only to shout down what it does not like. 

PS who voted for zero tariff on imported steel? 🙄

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

There were no alternative leave proposals put forward by the Tories. There are no credible proposals from the opposition. There is somewhere a leave deal that would suit the majority of the house. This will require some tough choices. The house has no mechanism to define it only to shout down what it does not like. 

PS who voted for zero tariff on imported steel? 🙄

We don't need the house to decide, the choice has already been directly made by the people when it was put to them in a referendum. Anything less than leaving the EU and all its core rules is overturning the referendum result. 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

There are no credible proposals from the opposition. There is somewhere a leave deal that would suit the majority of the house.

Labour said they would not vote for any deal that didnt pass their 6 tests.
Lets examine these tests.

Starmer’s six tests for the Brexit deal are:

1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?

Ok, well we 'll never find out will we , because you wont pass the withdrawal agreement so we can move onto this ?

2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

The EU said from DAY 1 we couldnt pick and choose what we wanted, if you want single market access, you get free movement of people.
The only way to have 'the exact same benefits' is to not leave at all, which is really what the 6 tests are all about.

3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?

It allows the fair management of migration under OUR control, if thats whats meant, then yes 

4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?

A race to the bottom of what ?
Workers rights, I dont think anyone proposed going back to Victorian working conditions, unless I missed something.
Britain put forward most of the workers rights laws originally, why would we change that ?

5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?

The only ones talking about non cooperation in security and crime are the EU.
Why ? Its a 2 way street.

6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?

Again, why would it not ?
We are dedicated to holding the Union together, who has said different ?

Labours 6 tests are all well and good , except for  number 2 , which is a physical impossibilty, down to the EU refusing to even consider it.
This is the level of constructive input labour has come up with.

And they think they could get into government with that ?
Half of their own voters wont have it, so unless theres a mass exodus from the tories, they have no chance whatsoever.

 

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Labour said they would not vote for any deal that didnt pass their 6 tests.

 

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

And they think they could get into government with that ?
Half of their own voters wont have it,

Labours Six Tests were written purely as a "backside covering exercise" in that they can always now say they were clear on what they would support and none of May's various offerings (or for that matter anyone else's  sensible proposals) don't pass their six tests so can't be supported.  The fact that they are completely impractical and impossible won't matter to Labours voters ........ remember these are the voters who would vote for Diane Abbott.

Anyone who genuinely believes that Corbyn, Abbott, McDonnell and Thornberry could run a Government will not quibble over a little thing like being 'totally impractical'

[toxo]

24 minutes ago, oowee said:

There were no alternative leave proposals put forward by the Tories. There are no credible proposals from the opposition. There is somewhere a leave deal that would suit the majority of the house. This will require some tough choices. The house has no mechanism to define it only to shout down what it does not like. 

PS who voted for zero tariff on imported steel? 🙄

This misses the point of having the referendum in the first place. It was predicated on the things we weren't happy with such as Sovereignty, law and migration/borders. Since then everyone with a vested interest (and not in the future of this country) have used every kind of smoke and mirrors to cloud the issue.

The fact is that if the brexit negotiations had been conducted by hard line leavers from the get go this part of the process would have been done and dusted a year ago.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Anyone who genuinely believes that Corbyn, Abbott, McDonnell and Thornberry could run a Government will not quibble over a little thing like being 'totally impractical'

Well , if theres one thing to come from this, they have had some pretty damn scary exposure for who and what they are really about in the last 2 years.
They say a labour voter is always a labour voter, I think we might put that to the test next time.