BREXIT

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

t is old history now, but I voted to join "The Common Market".  -  

Me too. It seemed a good idea at the time.  The only people against it were out on the wings - Tony Benn on the left one and Enoch Powell on the right.

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have no problem with the idea of a 'common market' or indeed an EEC, but political union, common foreign policy, 'ever closer union' are steps too far. 

WE forget now, but Cameron actually got a written opt-out clause from the 'ever closer union' bit. But, of course, by that time the atmosphere was so febrile that the hard-line Remainers didn't want it and the hard-line Leavers weren't interested in hearing about it.

And so here we are. The pity of it is that when Cameron won the concession of the opt-out he was in fact opening the door for other countries to demand the same for themselves. Britain could have been at the vanguard of a movement for a less centrist Europe. Sure, such a stance would have met with resistance in Brussels -  but nevertheless  it would undoubtedly have had support in the east and south. Instead the Brexit business has strengthened the centralists in Europe, particularly the Franco-German axis. So instead of being in the decision making heart of a looser European confederation Britain is now going to be isolated outside a more monolithic political entity.

The Brexit process has done something else too. Far from showing how strong the country is it has actually demonstrated to the world how weak and disorganized we are politically. And if Boris gets his hard Brexit, you'll be able to add 'economically vulnerable' to that too. The whole thing has been a wash out from the time it was conceived and it's set to get worse. A complete shambles.

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/08/29/why-the-capitalist-class-is-warming-to-jeremy-corbyn/

😀 The hypocrisy of those obsessed with stopping Brexit knows no bounds! Not so long ago he was claiming Boris is an unelected PM, yet he thinks it acceptable for him to be an unelected caretaker PM. 

On the radio there are calls to protest against the 'undemocratic' process of proroguing ( including Major , whom no doubt thought it democratic when he did it! ) yet no mention of the undemocratic process of trying to thwart, and overturn, the result of the referendum, arrived at by democratic means. Is it me? 😊

On another note, did I just hear that Guardian bloke somebody Jones on the JV show attempt to claim a direct link between those 17 million who voted leave and the murder of Jo Cox MP? 

By all means campaign to rejoin the EU if that's what they want, but first they must honour the result to leave. All this clamouring to avoid a no deal brexit is simply naively transparent; they aren't interested in a deal. Like I said, if they were we would have one by now. They've had three years, it's time to go, and get on with our lives. 

 

[JohnfromUK]

25 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

WE forget now, but Cameron actually got a written opt-out clause from the 'ever closer union' bit.

The fact that the organisation of which we are a part have "ever closer union" as one of it's main aims is enough to frighten me off - even if we are opted out of that clause.  WE would be on a divergent path, so better to leave the path altogether.

 

10 minutes ago, Scully said:

On another note, did I just hear that Guardian bloke somebody Jones on the JV show attempt to claim a direct link between those 17 million who voted leave and the murder of Jo Cox MP? 

That will be Owen Jones - a mouthy lefty who has a habit of walking out of interviews when he is asked awkward questions.  He is the sort of person to whom you instantly take a dislike - which is 100% confirmed when he starts speaking. (Google him)

[panoma1]

15 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The fact that the organisation of which we are a part have "ever closer union" as one of it's main aims is enough to frighten me off - even if we are opted out of that clause.  WE would be on a divergent path, so better to leave the path altogether.

 

That will be Owen Jones - a mouthy lefty who has a habit of walking out of interviews when he is asked awkward questions.  He is the sort of person to whom you instantly take a dislike - which is 100% confirmed when he starts speaking. (Google him)

We ain't seen nothin yet....from the rabid, fascist trots! 

[Scully]

26 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That will be Owen Jones - a mouthy lefty who has a habit of walking out of interviews when he is asked awkward questions.  He is the sort of person to whom you instantly take a dislike - which is 100% confirmed when he starts speaking. (Google him)

Yes; not surprised he was beaten up actually. He doesn't regard having a milk shake thrown over you as assault ( yet the police do ) but instead finds it rather amusing. 

[welsh1]

Owen Jones is the kind of person quite happy to whip up hate and get people on the streets, and also laugh when people are attacked, and yet the moment it happens to him he is squeeling like a stuck pig.He should learn there are consequences to your actions.

[Penelope]

22 hours ago, oowee said:

Lets take that step. To abide by WTO trade rules we have to apply the same trade rules to all unless we have agreed a trade deal. We could have no border for Ireland and no duty control mechanisms applied and in which case we would have to have the same arrangement for every country that we trade with. Open borders to the world would not be good. That border (or rather border control mechanisms) are a matter for both sides. 

That Australian lamb could go into a lamb pie and easily be passed off as British and sold to the EU without agreed controls. There are different tariffs that apply to different types of meat dependent on where it was sourced how it is cut and stored. Lamb export tariff to the EU (as a third country) is currently set between 12.5% and 76%. It looks like there could be a good financial case for shipping lamb to the UK for processing and then putting it to the EU at a lower tariff than exporting direct. 

What as opposed to Romanian horse meat?

[henry d]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

How ever short the rough ride will be we are still trading several percentage points below where we could have been and we have not left yet. I doubt that ground can ever be made back and I would like to see a forecast of the lost tax revenues. 

How many firms do you know sitting on a pile of 'just in case cash' that would otherwise have been invested. Add three years of non government and the cost is already out of proportion to any perceived and imaginary benefit of self rule. 

I am not a firm nor do I have a pile of cash however I booked a holiday to Mallorca in early 2016 and bought a shed load of euros as we were intending to go again in mid autumn the best exchange rate I could get was 1-30 (and a bit) to the £. Then in June 2016, a week before we left, it all fell apart.

 

Today I would get 1-08 (MSE best rate). Fortunately or unfortunately, I have 400E left from back then and have to rely on a credit card if we spend that in October.

[Penelope]

6 hours ago, henry d said:

 

 

 

One brexit debate gets pulled for name calling and getting personal with insults; what don`t you understand about that?

 

Be disturbed...

Generalist not direct.

[henry d]

12 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Generalist not direct.

Nope, have another look

[oowee]

3 hours ago, Penelope said:

What as opposed to Romanian horse meat?

Nope. Including any meat horse or otherwise.

[Danger-Mouse]

I've been watching Sky News Australia, As a certain brand of cider said, "That's a refreshing change" Nothing like our lefty media. Take a look, it's well worth 10 minutes of your time.

 

[pinfireman]

9 hours ago, Nuke said:

This is not correct, just wishful thinking, UK companies are no better in that regard than companies from other countries.

In my experience (from standards/companies from/in UK, Sweden, Germany, US, South Afrika) this is usually an issue if you don't bother to try and understand the regulations and only wish to fullfill the absolute minimum requirement to minimize cost.

/M

Sorry, but I HAVE seen it for myself! Pig farmers in Denmark and the Netherlands, for the most part, ignore the EU rules. They get away with it because, when these rules are made, they enthusiastically endorse them, unlike our farmers, who opposed them! The EU  made certain we are inspected, but the  farmers in the countries mentioned, for the most part, do not, as they appeared to agree with the new rules. It,s rampant throughout the EU. Why do you think bacon from the EU is cheaper than bacon produced here?Food costs are the same...

20 hours ago, KB1 said:

To be fair there doesn't appear to be a 'point' to tackle……. Br-Exit was what people voted for.  Not one foot in, and one foot out🙄

Correct!

20 hours ago, Yellow Bear said:

Which had nothing to do with food safety as stated and everything to do with protecting markets for mainland Europe which they could not do any other way without falling foul of WTO rules

Did it have leave with a (C**** ) deal then - I don't think so

Correct! 

20 hours ago, Vince Green said:

YES! that's EXACTLY what it had on the ballot paper. And Cameron made no bones about trying to frighten us by saying as much.

Brexit deniers are like the Holocaust deniers were in Germany in the 1960s, frantically trying to rewrite history

A great comparison!

[pinfireman]

20 hours ago, Scully said:

If you're suggesting we have another vote based on 'leave with a deal' or 'leave without a deal', then we have to ask ourselves is it Brexiteers calling for a so called 'peoples vote', or remainers? Don't we already know the answer to that one? 

Oh yes! We certainly do...........a pathetic attempt to subvert democracy!

[Newbie to this]

13 minutes ago, Mr_Nobody said:

I've been watching Sky News Australia, As a certain brand of cider said, "That's a refreshing change" Nothing like our lefty media. Take a look, it's well worth 10 minutes of your time.

 

A refreshing look at UK politics from the outside.

[pinfireman]

10 hours ago, Retsdon said:

If only it were so simple! The problem is that the sound bite merchants and sloganeers  debased the issue of Brexit to the point of absurdity, and now there's very little sense to be had at all from either side of the fence.

 I highly recommend this article, written today by someone who knows what they're talking about, who has been actively campaigning to leave the EU since the 1990s. It was never, ever going to be an easy or straightforward  process to undertake.

 

Life isn,t easy, or straightforward, but we take its journey!

10 hours ago, oowee said:

That is a good article, a reset of our position with the EU was a far better description of what we want to achieve by leaving. It is difficult to see how our short term political system which is increasingly driven by tabloid sound bite politics, could ever embark upon such a mature and thought through approach to the country's future. Coalition and proportional representation with a long political horizon is surely the only way we will achieve such change. 

with Labour and Momentum? What have you been smoking? 

9 hours ago, henry d said:

 

 

 

One brexit debate gets pulled for name calling and getting personal with insults; what don`t you understand about that?

 

Be disturbed...

So you go along with such a disgusting tactic?

[Retsdon]

14 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Life isn,t easy, or straightforward, but we take its journey!

 

 

[pinfireman]

9 hours ago, Retsdon said:

There's no logical reason why they shouldn't go along with the EEU thing. The precedents, and rules and regulations surrounding EEA membership are well established.

The EU didn't agree to absolutely everything Cameron wanted because a couple of his demands undermined 'the four freedoms'. But he got a lot more than he is given credit for . https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105. As far as May is concerned, her Lancaster House proposals were dead in the water from the start. What she was asking for was selective access to the Single Market but without being bound by the regulatory framework that underpins it. It was a concession that the EU negotiators could never, ever concede to. 

Anyway, the present situation is a complete dog's breakfast. Something needs to be done.

It will be.....on November 1st.

9 hours ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

The whole country was lied to, by all sides, thats why

Please list ALL the lies, by each side, please.

9 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

No doubt it will be bumpy, I think the key question is just how long the turbulence will last. And if we "just leave without a deal" and things do get really bad then the EU will have us over a barrel, particularly if we decide we should re-join.

THAT will never happen!  I,m happy to take bets on it!

9 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

Lies and false promises....yet again, please list them,from BOTH sides!

[pinfireman]

9 hours ago, Retsdon said:

My prediction is that the UK is either back in the EU, or actually more probably in the EEU, within a decade. In today's interconnected world it's laughable to imagine that a country can prosper without a close and complex set of agreements with any of its 27 nearest neighbours. And as the EU is basically the umbrella organization that represents all 27, then the UK will either have to be in never ending step by step negotiations on every single topic, or else adopt an off the shelf one-off agreement. And the logical one, given the country's geographic position on the globe is membership of one of the European clubs.

I would be hapy to take a substantial bet on this! As for 27 neighbours, 20 of them are basket cases, as well you know, and have to be propped up with EU funds (including our money!)

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The original thread used words like 'remoaner' and 'gammon' from the outset, you yourself often used 'offensive' terms toward others. 

It's when personal insults begin to escalate, often with a clear intent to get the thread shut down, that action needs to be taken. 

It's a public forum, and the last thing we need to project, is that we are a rude and offensive, bickering rabble. 

Correct!

7 hours ago, welsh1 said:

Oh dear how hypocritical when he prorouged Parliment to supress a cash for questions scandel.

True, yet you will not hear that from ANY BBC personnel !

[oowee]

15 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

 

with Labour and Momentum? What have you been smoking? 

 

Don't know what you are on about. I am resigned to leaving. Lets do the deed and reap the whirlwind of change. Lets hope the whole sorry affair has at the very least demonstrated the total inadequacy of our parliamentary process and those involved in it. We need change at the top and I dont just mean those in charge, we need an overhaul of our political system. 

I don't believe there will be too much of a cliff edge just a slow drip drip drip of economic prosperity and standards being undermined, largely to the detriment of those least able to afford it or do anything about it. The ridiculous and fundamentally unfounded assertions of the free traders will be put to the test and I can watch with interest. There will be at least another 20 years of sport as we watch the hopeless and inadequate political class juggle with the real world detail of competition and trade. 

Now where is my rifle I have to go and shoot some foxes tonight. 🙂 

 

[pinfireman]

6 hours ago, oowee said:

How ever short the rough ride will be we are still trading several percentage points below where we could have been and we have not left yet. I doubt that ground can ever be made back and I would like to see a forecast of the lost tax revenues. 

How many firms do you know sitting on a pile of 'just in case cash' that would otherwise have been invested. Add three years of non government and the cost is already out of proportion to any perceived and imaginary benefit of self rule. 

Aha! Back to the "money before freedom" argument!

[pinfireman]

5 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Me too. It seemed a good idea at the time.  The only people against it were out on the wings - Tony Benn on the left one and Enoch Powell on the right.

WE forget now, but Cameron actually got a written opt-out clause from the 'ever closer union' bit. But, of course, by that time the atmosphere was so febrile that the hard-line Remainers didn't want it and the hard-line Leavers weren't interested in hearing about it.

And so here we are. The pity of it is that when Cameron won the concession of the opt-out he was in fact opening the door for other countries to demand the same for themselves. Britain could have been at the vanguard of a movement for a less centrist Europe. Sure, such a stance would have met with resistance in Brussels -  but nevertheless  it would undoubtedly have had support in the east and south. Instead the Brexit business has strengthened the centralists in Europe, particularly the Franco-German axis. So instead of being in the decision making heart of a looser European confederation Britain is now going to be isolated outside a more monolithic political entity.

The Brexit process has done something else too. Far from showing how strong the country is it has actually demonstrated to the world how weak and disorganized we are politically. And if Boris gets his hard Brexit, you'll be able to add 'economically vulnerable' to that too. The whole thing has been a wash out from the time it was conceived and it's set to get worse. A complete shambles.

And Powell has been seen since to be right about so may things! He forecast the plan to turn  the EEC into a Federal State, he forecast loss of sovereignty, he forecast the loss of our lawmaking ability.......the list goes on. 

Cameron failed to get ANY backing from the states you mention Thopugh he tried, as they were too happy  with their snouts in the trough, a trough filled with OUR money!

5 hours ago, Scully said:

😀 The hypocrisy of those obsessed with stopping Brexit knows no bounds! Not so long ago he was claiming Boris is an unelected PM, yet he thinks it acceptable for him to be an unelected caretaker PM. 

On the radio there are calls to protest against the 'undemocratic' process of proroguing ( including Major , whom no doubt thought it democratic when he did it! ) yet no mention of the undemocratic process of trying to thwart, and overturn, the result of the referendum, arrived at by democratic means. Is it me? 😊

On another note, did I just hear that Guardian bloke somebody Jones on the JV show attempt to claim a direct link between those 17 million who voted leave and the murder of Jo Cox MP? 

By all means campaign to rejoin the EU if that's what they want, but first they must honour the result to leave. All this clamouring to avoid a no deal brexit is simply naively transparent; they aren't interested in a deal. Like I said, if they were we would have one by now. They've had three years, it's time to go, and get on with our lives. 

 

What do you expect from The Guardian?   It,s only fit for toilet paper!

5 hours ago, Scully said:

Yes; not surprised he was beaten up actually. He doesn't regard having a milk shake thrown over you as assault ( yet the police do ) but instead finds it rather amusing. 

He claimed to be beaten up, yet had no bruises!

4 hours ago, Penelope said:

What as opposed to Romanian horse meat?

Nice one!

[pinfireman]

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

Don't know what you are on about. I am resigned to leaving. Lets do the deed and reap the whirlwind of change. Lets hope the whole sorry affair has at the very least demonstrated the total inadequacy of our parliamentary process and those involved in it. We need change at the top and I dont just mean those in charge, we need an overhaul of our political system. 

I don't believe there will be too much of a cliff edge just a slow drip drip drip of economic prosperity and standards being undermined, largely to the detriment of those least able to afford it or do anything about it. The ridiculous and fundamentally unfounded assertions of the free traders will be put to the test and I can watch with interest. There will be at least another 20 years of sport as we watch the hopeless and inadequate political class juggle with the real world detail of competition and trade. 

Now where is my rifle I have to go and shoot some foxes tonight. 🙂 

 

I,ve heard there are a lot of them in Islington.....

A question for Raja and any other Remainers on here....what are you going to do after November 1st ? Help take this country forwards to a new future, or continue to drag us back into the Brussels cesspit?

[Vince Green]

Anyway, Corbyn has been told the Queen has no intention of seeing him so that's shot his plans down in flames.

He clearly has no concept of protocol if he thought she was going to start taking sides. It shows what a buffoon he really is.

[Scully]

What I've found increasingly frustrating about this entire affair, is that journalists and interviewers never seem to ask the relevant questions, such as the ones I'd most like to ask if given the opportunity, such as, 'Mr Major, did YOU consider proroguing parliament undemocratic when you did it back in 1997 to avoid embarrassment regarding the Tory cash for questions scandal?' It's as if they've been given a list of questions they must not ask! 🤔😀