BREXIT

[Retsdon]

6 minutes ago, dead eye alan said:

sauce Jeff Taylor,

Do you think he's into that kind of thing?😮

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Good to see we have almost a full complement of Remoaners this morning!

[Raja Clavata]

6 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Good to see we have almost a full complement of Remoaners this morning!

And?

You lot are lost without Rewulf, John and a handful of others who only post infrequently😛

Edited October 18, 2019 by Raja Clavata

[TIGHTCHOKE]

He's been rather good at knocking all or your arguments in to a cocked hat, his work is done for now, he is resting for the next bit!

[dead eye alan]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

He's been rather good at knocking all or your arguments in to a cocked hat, his work is done for now, he is resting for the next bit!

Gone shooting!!!!!!

[Raja Clavata]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

He's been rather good at knocking all or your arguments in to a cocked hat, his work is done for now, he is resting for the next bit!

So you don't contest my point. 

Are you suggesting your opinion on who is knocking whos arguments into a cocked hat are impartial? Do you even follow half of the discussion?

[Mice!]

So having been on the Moon (out of data) I haven't read all the pages since Tuesday, expect it was much of the usual?

So Boris has a deal, Parliament will vote on it tonight yes?

What are it's chances of passing then?

Or are Listless and the Scottish nasty party going to block it again?

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

What are it's chances of passing then?

My guess is the Parliament will reject it by a very small margin.  It is pretty clear that a large majority of the public want Brexit 'over and done' and this is the only way of achieving it as things stand at present ........ which is why I think Parliament will probably reject it - but it could go either way.

[Capt Christopher Jones]

57 minutes ago, Mice! said:

The way the Snp are going there will be barbed wire on Hadrian's wall soon anyway, if they get their way.

plus even more customs posts to be manned

[TIGHTCHOKE]

24 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

So you don't contest my point. 

Are you suggesting your opinion on who is knocking whos arguments into a cocked hat are impartial? Do you even follow half of the discussion?

Get off your high horse, we have had a good run with this thread, only been shut off once. When will you accept the will of the people matters more?

[Mice!]

1 minute ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

plus even more customs posts to be manned

Good job the strawberries are in cooled vans then, not sure much else comes down really.

I've lived in Scotland and really don't see how them being independent of the UK helps them at all?

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

Still a long way to go though.

Indeed there is .

 

 

2 hours ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

I hope you wrexiteers have plenty of savings

Wrexiteers ! ? Did you make than one up yourself 
Surely that applies to you as well then , unless of course you are setting off into the sunset ? 😐

1 hour ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

Bozo has ditched ( geddit ) May`s RED lines to get the deal, what is now proposed ( Irish sea boarder ) is what the EU suggested in the first place I May rejected as it split the United Kingdom.

What is now proposed are internal custom borders within the UK & that should be unacceptable, there will be a Scottish customs post nxt 

 

Think about it this way.
Boris has achieved far more since July , than May did in the best part of 3 years.
Which demonstrates the difference between someone who wants to get things done, against someone who dithers and kicks cans.
May will likely not be remembered too kindly for this.

Corbyn is cut from the same cloth as May , he is indecisive , bereft of any real patriotism, with a propensity to be influenced by whoever will (pretend to ) listen to his marxist vision of Utopia.
Hes also a bit thick IMHO.

So , we gather you dont like the idea of leaving, but more importantly , what is your idea of a good  leader of  this country ?

That said, its premature to talk about the potential suffering and plagues of frogs that the BJ deal will inflict..yet.
It needs to pass parliament , a far from foregone conclusion, (my personal opinion) the DUP and to a lesser extent sinn fein need to be behind it, as I dont think it works otherwise, this being a far bigger sticking point than many realise.

However , that said the deal has to be examined carefully, its NOT the same as Mays without the backstop,.
It does however contain the 39 Bn bribe, which above anything , really sticks in my craw.

Wait till tomorrow, if the DUP  back it, its highly likely this is what we are leaving with.
If the DUP DONT  back it, they either really cant abide with it, OR this is by design, to force no deal, Im beginning to think this unlikely now.
The wild card is this, the DUP dont back it, and it passes anyway, this COULD be a problem, or again by design to force no deal.

I am slightly puzzled by the Brexit party stance, they seem rather miffed about the matter, is it real ?
I would have thought , fighting for a harder Brexit would be easier from OUTSIDE the EU than in, but maybe I just dont understand the strategy ?

16 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

plus even more customs posts to be manned

Even more ? 
What , there some now ? 😲

[johnphilip]

12 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I doff my cap to Rewulf. Stuck to the issues despite many attempts to deflect him.

Yes so well said Gordon , I am enjoying his replies .

[Rewulf]

A little explanation of the deal.
Just remember also he achieved this with fierce criticism , slur stories, no majority and a plethora of court cases designed to stop him, not to mention his own and opposition MPs , plus  the speaker of the house attempting to thwart him by talking to Brussels behind his back.
For that alone he needs congratulating.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/the-vindication-of-boris-johnsons-brexit-strategy/

[SpringDon]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

Yep. But in the modern age nobody cares about stuff that requires an attention span of more that about 15 seconds to digest.

 https://www.cer.eu/insights/brexit-and-rules-origin-why-free-trade-agreements-≠-free-trade 

And in a democracy, that has to be a worry. Take the Daily Mail for example. In past days it used to be a staid middle-brow newspaper with a reliably conservative if jingoistic slant. Yet somewhere along the line it's become a lurid tabloid, far more sensationalist than the original Sun was when it first came out. And as a tabloid, along with the conveyor belt of trivia generated shock or outrage, when it comes to deeper matters it eschews anything that smacks of nuance. The paper has basically become a cheerleader for its readership's prejudices, and of course the more it cheerleads the narrower those prejudices become.

So political discussion isn't even predicated on political positions, but on personality. If Corbyn had negotiated a deal that permanently situated an intra-UK EU customs post in the Irish Sea this thread would be calling him all kinds of things. But when the Blonde One does the same thing, it's hailed as a triumph of diplomacy. There's no difference in the facts, just in the spin.

In a democracy, when such little insight and thought goes into the formation of political perspective it has to be a worry because historically, this kind of emotive manipulation of the vulgus has been a symptom of civilized societies that are in decadent decline, and the outcome has almost inevitably been either populist authoritarianism or else full-blown ochlocracy. 

But that's just how it works I suppose.

 

Just when you try to get out, they pull you back in. With utter tosh.

The daily mail circulation has halved since 2000. Most papers are in steep decline. If their prejudices have become narrower, it is matched by a more focused audience. What’s your point?

How you possibly give credence to an article that stating that the uk would be 2.9% larger when it has grown in the last 3 years. 2.9% would be fantastic in the current climate; for any country. This even more implausible given that many authorities consider that 1% of recent growth is due to companies stockpiling. Which is it?

One thing I can agree with is that societies are in decadent decline. Emotive manipulation is one (pejorative) view, another is that it’s a result of individual empowerment. It could be a symptom of a transition from an oligarchy to a ochlocracy.

 

[johnphilip]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

The way the Snp are going there will be barbed wire on Hadrian's wall soon anyway, if they get their way.

Rest easy they wont get there way . People are fed up , here is Scotland with all this trouble  and splitting  the country apart .

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

It is pretty clear that a large majority of the public want Brexit 'over and done'

Which just shows how ill-informed the majority of the public is. Brexit won't be 'over and done' for at least another ten years - if then even. All the Withdrawal Agreement does is to provide a seating arrangement for the real nuts and bolts negotiations that are to follow. This show is going to run and run...

[Raja Clavata]

50 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

A little explanation of the deal.
Just remember also he achieved this with fierce criticism , slur stories, no majority and a plethora of court cases designed to stop him, not to mention his own and opposition MPs , plus  the speaker of the house attempting to thwart him by talking to Brussels behind his back.
For that alone he needs congratulating.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/the-vindication-of-boris-johnsons-brexit-strategy/

None of which hindered nor aided his ability to negotiate a deal.

Getting it through Parliament is another matter.

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Get off your high horse, we have had a good run with this thread, only been shut off once. When will you accept the will of the people matters more?

Ah, the old high horse, along with other accusations when no retort easily comes to mind. You should be congratulated, all those Gordon Bennet and Zut alors comments have been so enlightening and valuable.

Nobody is contesting what the will of the people was over 40 months ago!

Edited October 18, 2019 by Raja Clavata

[Retsdon]

47 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

If their prejudices have become narrower, it is matched by a more focused audience. What’s your point?

My point is that nowadays, when it comes to politics, any kind of graduation or shading in opinion is anathema. Everything is presented and consumed in black or white. And in this ill-informed febrile atmosphere, facts are subordinate to spin. And sooner or later, it'll end in tears.

Incidentally, what's a 'focused' audience'? 

[dead eye alan]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Do you think he's into that kind of thing?😮

Yep watch this morning very interesting.

[Rewulf]

51 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Which just shows how ill-informed the majority of the public is.

Ahh, the old, you don't know what you're voting for slur. 

Followed by. 

52 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Brexit won't be 'over and done' for at least another ten years - if then even

An opinion, masquerading as fact. 

Why don't you move to the next step, and confirm to yourself that Brexit is 'impossible' 

Go on, you know you want to 😋

[Dave-G]

4 hours ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

I hope you wrexiteers have plenty of savings

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-economy/uk-heading-for-fairly-hard-brexit-if-johnson-deal-passes-idUKKBN1WW2F8

That suggests you think its fit and proper selling our sovereignty to EU as long as we get things a bit cheaper.

Many of us Brexiteers have accepted things may get a bit dearer in order to captain our own ship - pardon the pun, though maybe some captains feel its better for a captain to be captain in name only and let their commander control the fleet by remote control. :-)

[SpringDon]

30 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

My point is that nowadays, when it comes to politics, any kind of graduation or shading in opinion is anathema. Everything is presented and consumed in black or white. And in this ill-informed febrile atmosphere, facts are subordinate to spin. And sooner or later, it'll end in tears.

Incidentally, what's a 'focused' audience'? 

Ok, it should really be audience focus. When you concentrate on the prejudices of your audience, it does not reflect an increase in the general prejudices. It is just subset of the audience.

and I very much agree with “any kind of graduation or shading in opinion is anathema”. The description of a no deal brexit as cliff edged or catastrophic is laughably unnuanced, as I’m sure you’ll agree.

[Capt Christopher Jones]

2 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

That suggests you think its fit and proper selling our sovereignty to EU as long as we get things a bit cheaper.

Many of us Brexiteers have accepted things may get a bit dearer in order to captain our own ship - pardon the pun, though maybe some captains feel its better for a captain to be captain in name only and let their commander control the fleet by remote control. 🙂

 

[Dave-G]

3 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Yep. But in the modern age nobody cares about stuff that requires an attention span of more that about 15 seconds to digest.

 https://www.cer.eu/insights/brexit-and-rules-origin-why-free-trade-agreements-≠-free-trade 

And in a democracy, that has to be a worry. Take the Daily Mail for example. In past days it used to be a staid middle-brow newspaper with a reliably conservative if jingoistic slant. Yet somewhere along the line it's become a lurid tabloid, far more sensationalist than the original Sun was when it first came out. And as a tabloid, along with the conveyor belt of trivia generated shock or outrage, when it comes to deeper matters it eschews anything that smacks of nuance. The paper has basically become a cheerleader for its readership's prejudices, and of course the more it cheerleads the narrower those prejudices become.

So political discussion isn't even predicated on political positions, but on personality. If Corbyn had negotiated a deal that permanently situated an intra-UK EU customs post in the Irish Sea this thread would be calling him all kinds of things. But when the Blonde One does the same thing, it's hailed as a triumph of diplomacy. There's no difference in the facts, just in the spin.

In a democracy, when such little insight and thought goes into the formation of political perspective it has to be a worry because historically, this kind of emotive manipulation of the vulgus has been a symptom of civilized societies that are in decadent decline, and the outcome has almost inevitably been either populist authoritarianism or else full-blown ochlocracy. 

But that's just how it works I suppose.

 

That seems a dang good understanding of media politics. I think we're going to have to accept that deal or no deal has come down to making a deal which includes compromises from both parties.

Something simply HAD to give because of the Ireland and Northern Ireland ultra complexity that would otherwise continue smashing onto the rocks.