pinfireman Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: I didn't say that, and I'm not defending Soubry but I would suggest that there were more than screams at Soubry and certainly so in the Renshaw case. I know you believe the media is biased but are you also suggesting the Police and CPS are anti Brexit too? Certainly not, at least not in all cases of the actions of MPs who have thwarted Brexit thus far. Nice(ish) try though... Is that a serious question!? As you are well aware, once on the internet, it,s there somewhere forever! All Soubry got was a load of shouted abuse.... As for the media being biased, I really do suggest you read The Noble Lie, by Robin Aitken, a journalist who worked for the BBC for many years. If I had not thought that the BBC was biased before, I certainly would have after reading his book, and seeing his interview on You Tube "How BBC Bias Works. If you were to apply an open mind when reading or watching, you could not fail to admit the bias..... As for the police, they are put under huge pressure by the Remoaner media to act when a Remoaner is heckled or jostled, but when it happens to a Leaver, the media fall silent! 4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: I merely used it as an example to counter the claim that there was only one wrong. The irony here of course is that the referendum result was supposed to delivery parliamentary sovereignty back to the UK and now in the process of doing so, BoJo is trying to circumvent it. I admire your confidence in us leaving, I’d admit the probability has increased but it remains far from a foregone conclusion. Attlee prorogued Parliament, Major did the same (for very unsavoury breasons!) No one said a dickie bird then! 4 hours ago, ShootingEgg said: We don't have it yet! Because people like your self can't accept the vote that took place! We've not left yet so we don't have it back. Suspending parliament is nothing unusual, but ofcourse the moaning brigade would say it is. And in reply to a comment you made previously regarding examples of remoaners kicking off at leavers as it's only ever us racist radical pig **** thick leavers harrasing remain voters... Oh wait, I've been classed a racist dumb *** that doesn't know anything. Correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: I fully accept that a vote took place. Where does this notion of suspension of parliament being nothing unusual come from? Particularly in the context of something as fundamentally important as Brexit... Sorry, I don't understand the point you are trying to make on the remaining comments above. But there is precedent in the modern era: prorogation was used as a workaround in 1948 to undermine efforts of the Lords to protect their powers –and to force through legislation regarding wholesale nationalisation, and with less constitutional valence in 1997 to avoid awkward questions for the Government. 3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: My point was that they only planned to win - and that didn't need much of plan as it was 'status quo'. Typical complacency of bullies like the EU and lazy slackers like Cameron But the process involved Parliament at ALL stages; this idea now that they have had no time to discuss it, or "No deal" wasn't ever a 'real option' is absolute rubbish in polite terms! You cannot just 'pull the plug' - because a promise was made - and has to be carried through. This idea that "it all got a bit hard, so we cancelled it" is nonsense. When it gets hard, you have to get in some hard nosed operators and get a bit hard with the obstacles - in this case Parliament. The truth is that by proroguing, Johnson has cost Parliament about 4 or 5 days of business - because they would have recessed anyway for the party conference season for 3 weeks. It is normal to prorogue after a session - and this last session has been the longest since the 18th century. Normally Parliamentary sessions finish annually with a new session starting by a Queens speech - just as Johnson has arranged this time. He has not 'taken over like a dictator' as McDonnell claims, Parliament will reopen with a Queens speech in the normal way on 14th October. It just happens that this end of session coincides with the party conference season, making it a longer closure than usual. It is the Prime Minister's choice when he wants a new session and Johnson has very sensibly used it to his advantage. That is within the power of the Prime Minister - who is the only Government or Parliament official who can 'advise' the Queen as I understand the way it works. That is what Prime Ministers do. Corbyn, Swinson, or Uncle Tom Cobleigh M.P. and all cannot simply get an audience and 'advise' the Queen. They are simply M.Ps. Excellent! 3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: My point was that they only planned to win - and that didn't need much of plan as it was 'status quo'. Typical complacency of bullies like the EU and lazy slackers like Cameron But the process involved Parliament at ALL stages; this idea now that they have had no time to discuss it, or "No deal" wasn't ever a 'real option' is absolute rubbish in polite terms! You cannot just 'pull the plug' - because a promise was made - and has to be carried through. This idea that "it all got a bit hard, so we cancelled it" is nonsense. When it gets hard, you have to get in some hard nosed operators and get a bit hard with the obstacles - in this case Parliament. The truth is that by proroguing, Johnson has cost Parliament about 4 or 5 days of business - because they would have recessed anyway for the party conference season for 3 weeks. It is normal to prorogue after a session - and this last session has been the longest since the 18th century. Normally Parliamentary sessions finish annually with a new session starting by a Queens speech - just as Johnson has arranged this time. He has not 'taken over like a dictator' as McDonnell claims, Parliament will reopen with a Queens speech in the normal way on 14th October. It just happens that this end of session coincides with the party conference season, making it a longer closure than usual. It is the Prime Minister's choice when he wants a new session and Johnson has very sensibly used it to his advantage. That is within the power of the Prime Minister - who is the only Government or Parliament official who can 'advise' the Queen as I understand the way it works. That is what Prime Ministers do. Corbyn, Swinson, or Uncle Tom Cobleigh M.P. and all cannot simply get an audience and 'advise' the Queen. They are simply M.Ps. Excellent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Rewulf said: Thats SOOOO 2017 Retsdon ! Seriously , they agreed to implement it , end of ! Yes, they did! 3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Has it occurred to you that some of the parliamentary resistance may have been an attempt to avoid us moving backwards? We supposedly elect MPs because they generally know better than us, that seems to have been forgotten in some quarters amidst the cries of traitors and whatever else... "They generally know better than us".....really? Then maybe it,s time they showed it! That attitude casts them as genii, and the electorate as thickos....how arrogant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 5 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: I do not agree and would suggest there have been numerous wrongs starting with the FACT that there was no plan for Brexit in the event that the referendum result went the way of leave. Simple. The vote was 'Leave the EU' or 'Remain in the EU'. It was leave or remain. It would have taken years to think about a 'Plan' and what a struggle this would have meant. Do you need a 'plan' to vote for a local councillor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Rewulf said: Did anyone ever ASK them if that was what they wanted , BRINO costing £40 + billion , and a chance of never actually leaving properly ? If we had known that, the majority to Leave would have been much greater! 3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Do you consider Cameron to be a man of integrity and honesty? Do you consider Corbyn, MacDonnel, Grieve, Hammond, Soubry, Rudd, Morgan, Starmer, Abbott to be the same? 3 hours ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: No just like Bozo. Camooron thought it would be easy & quell the tory boyz once & for all time. He misjudged it badly & the tory boyz are in the driving seat of an E type when they are only qualified to drive a split screen morris minor Do you actually think someone on the Labour side would be any better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: If I stated on this thread what I thought about Corbyn's honesty and integrity, I'd be on an immediate ban ........ and you would not be alone! 2 hours ago, KB1 said: It’s a shame that the country’s (Not just PW) is so divided on this issue now. Regarding the integrity of our politicians, I believe that to equal little or none with most of them…… BUT, when faced with MSM eager to get that self-tying noose nugget on a consistent basis, then telling the whole truth is a career ending move anyway, so we’re all to blame in a round about way😬 I didn’t vote Brexit or Remain because my wallet is happier with the status quo, and my heart and head with Brexit - Add to that the fact that I never thought Brexit had a chance. For me personally, the reason I would prefer Brexit to go ahead is that I’ve seen hundreds, if not thousands of EU directives introduced into the construction industry that have in the main hindered progress rather than bolster it. On top of that, the UK follows these laws to the nth degree, and is severely punished when deviated from, whilst the rest of Europe puts a middle finger up to them and carry on regardless!!! Many politicians are on a similar gravy train with the EU as I am….. the difference being; they can’t openly say so🥴 Never the less, the electorate were given a democratic ‘CHOICE’, and they CHOSE🧐 Who the **** on here, in parliament or in the UK has the right to reverse a democratic vote result???????? Whatever goods we sell now, people will still want to buy……. Whatever goods we buy now, people will still want to buy…… Whatever expertise we have, people will still need it…….. Etc, etc, etc, etc, THIS IS WHAT THE EU IS AFRAID OF!!!! We should capitalise on that, and stop being afraid of running the shop ourselves🤪 Good post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, das said: Simple. The vote was 'Leave the EU' or 'Remain in the EU'. It was leave or remain. It would have taken years to think about a 'Plan' and what a struggle this would have meant. Do you need a 'plan' to vote for a local councillor? No but I usually plan when considering a project, journey or expedition I’ve not taken before. Such planning mitigates the risk of, say on an expedition, coming across a swollen river where I am not prepared to pay the fees to cross with assistance and end up aborting the trip. The analogy of Brexit is like not being prepared to pay the fees but instead of aborting decide to take my chances by jumping in the river because I can’t bear the prospect of conceding failure. On complex undertakings a failure to plan is a plan for failure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 2 hours ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: You clearly did not read this in his post! On top of that, the UK follows these laws to the nth degree, and is severely punished when deviated from, whilst the rest of Europe puts a middle finger up to them and carry on regardless!!! I also have seen the way other EU countries flout the directives to suit themselves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Gordon R said: Perhaps I could cite Diane Abbott, Corbyn, McDonnell, Soubry and Onasanya as examples that you regard so highly. Compared to Corbyn, Blair or who? Love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 18 minutes ago, pinfireman said: Yes, they did! "They generally know better than us".....really? Then maybe it,s time they showed it! That attitude casts them as genii, and the electorate as thickos....how arrogant! It does nothing of the sort and, I venture, is a poorly thought out cheap shot. That said I do recall a post recently suggesting that, bar a few (those of us dubbed Remoaners I suspect), the majority of PW members could do a better job than MPs. That really was a very funny statement indeed, if you too subscribe to that then fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 7 minutes ago, das said: Love it That’s not even 1% of sitting MPs and, for the record, none of them would feature in my top 500 ranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Exactly. Which leads to the point of the fact that... Brexiteers need to be careful here, if they are saying it does not matter what kind of Brexit they voted for then they are by implication saying they are happy with a Brexit based on a modified WA. Can't have it both ways... Interesting to see I’ve been quoted several times in the past few hours but no pro Brexit posters have chosen to tackle this point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB1 Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Interesting to see I’ve been quoted several times in the past few hours but no pro Brexit posters have chosen to tackle this point... To be fair there doesn't appear to be a 'point' to tackle……. Br-Exit was what people voted for. Not one foot in, and one foot out🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Interesting to see I’ve been quoted several times in the past few hours but no pro Brexit posters have chosen to tackle this point... Leave was voted for. It didn't say negotiate for 3 years then try and reverse it. We should of left then negotiated a deal. We will have to do this with other countries when, although you probably think there is only Europe. And if we dare mention the US it will. Just be countered by chlorine chicken argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 Quote On complex undertakings a failure to plan is a plan for failure... Thank goodness for the Sphinx. Where would we be without this homespun philosophy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Jones Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 1 minute ago, ShootingEgg said: Leave was voted for. It didn't say negotiate for 3 years then try and reverse it. We should of left then negotiated a deal. We will have to do this with other countries when, although you probably think there is only Europe. And if we dare mention the US it will. Just be countered by chlorine chicken argument. did that have "leave with no deal" on the ballot paper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 Just now, ShootingEgg said: Just be countered by chlorine chicken argument. Which had nothing to do with food safety as stated and everything to do with protecting markets for mainland Europe which they could not do any other way without falling foul of WTO rules 1 minute ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: did that have "leave with no deal" on the ballot paper Did it have leave with a (C**** ) deal then - I don't think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Interesting to see I’ve been quoted several times in the past few hours but no pro Brexit posters have chosen to tackle this point... I’m not really sure we were given any options regarding ‘what kind of Brexit ‘ we voted for. The choices as far as I recall were leave or remain. May tried to negotiate a ‘deal’, and that was the first time I became aware that some kind of deal was a possibility. I simply wanted us to sever all ties and leave. Personally, I’ve always opted for the no deal option ever since I became aware it was an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: did that have "leave with no deal" on the ballot paper Don't say it did. But I'm sorry, the EU are in the **** without our input of money, so they actually need us a hell of a lot more than we them. The motor trade for example, the amount of audi, vw, BMW, Mercedes, Renault, citron, Peugeot to name a few brands, how many do you see on UK roads. We leave then say right how do you want to Deal with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB1 Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 1 minute ago, ShootingEgg said: We leave then say right how do you want to Deal with us. And they will👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: did that have "leave with no deal" on the ballot paper YES! that's EXACTLY what it had on the ballot paper. And Cameron made no bones about trying to frighten us by saying as much. Brexit deniers are like the Holocaust deniers were in Germany in the 1960s, frantically trying to rewrite history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 (edited) Perhaps all adults could wear a baseball cap stating either "DEAL" or "NO DEAL" when they go to buy a car or house. That way the vendor can jack up the price as much as he fancies for prey punters who will buy a car with wobbly wheels and rusty arches at a high price - but sell one without faults at a reasonable price to those who are willing to go somewhere else if the price is too high or condition too bad. Edited August 29, 2019 by Dave-G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 12 minutes ago, Scully said: I’m not really sure we were given any options regarding ‘what kind of Brexit ‘ we voted for. The choices as far as I recall were leave or remain. May tried to negotiate a ‘deal’, and that was the first time I became aware that some kind of deal was a possibility. I simply wanted us to sever all ties and leave. Personally, I’ve always opted for the no deal option ever since I became aware it was an option. Picking up on your reply Scully but replying to all but one of the others here... Isn’t that exactly the point, such was the nature of the vote it’s all been left to personal interpretation of what you were voting for. So by that reasoning it’s not even possible to please all people that voted out with one specific outcome. Who knows based on the outcome what percentage of pro Brexit voters are happy. We already established a GE outcome is not a robust indicator. So by definition you can only readily claim to please a minority. Only really satisfactory if the actual outcome happens to fit your interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, Dave-G said: Perhaps all adults could wear a baseball cap stating either "DEAL" or "NO DEAL" when they go to buy a car or house. That way the vendor can jack up the price as much as he fancies for prey punters who will deal at any price - but have to sell at a reasonable price to those who are willing to go somewhere else if the price is too high. Exactly. Go in saying will deal makes them take the pee to the max and get the best deal for them, not us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said: Exactly. Go in saying will deal makes them take the pee to the max and get the best deal for them, not us Sorry - I'd edited my post before finding your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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