DONALD

[Lloyd90]

3 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

No we don't! we look to America to either: solve the messes it creates or more preferably stop causing them in the first place! Since the end of WW2, world history has been dominated by America's staggeringly inept conflict management. The US has got its dirty little mitts burned all over the place and the result has either been to solidify dictatorships or to cause power vacuums that just lead to more bloodshed and chaos. Whether it's Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraq, it's either: you fail and run away, thus strengthening the communists (Cuba, Vietnam) or declare victory and things are just as bad if not worse than before.

What on earth are you going on about.

 

All of those wars were proxy wars between the USA and Russia. You know, Russian that assassinated people on U.K. soil, who hacked U.K. internet systems for hospitals etc etc. 

You want to have a think who our allies are. 

 

What do you think would have happened if America just sat back? 

[Retsdon]

34 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

All of those wars were proxy wars between the USA and Russia.

Not all of them! Cuba, check. But let's face it Batista wasn't exactly good news. Korea, check. Vietnam? A failure of diplomacy. Ho Chi Minh turned to the Russians for support after the US abandoned him at the request of the French. Afghanistan? The Russians had already lost and were out of there, just as the British were before them and as the Americans are about to do shortly. The place is a veritable graveyard of imperial ambition and no sensible power should ever go near it. Iraq? No Russian involvement there. That's a Made In America disaster. 

We could add some more. Libya? A purely western adventure gone wrong. Syria? Another one. 

But whatever, chrisjpainter is basically correct. Leave aside the morality of militarily invading or destabilizing other countries or the justifications for it, when it comes to these kinds of ventures America has a dismal record. It's been like some giant going about the place picking places apart for its own reasons before getting bored and moving on to the next flavour of the month, and so on. But in its wake it has left death, crippled societies, and untold misery.

I'm honestly struggling to think of a single positive outcome.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Retsdon

[NoBodyImportant]

3 hours ago, southeastpete said:

Wow, Americans are so arrogant. ‘These countries should do what they’re told, if we leave it’s cos we want to not cos we were told’ etc 🙄

 

 

That’s what happens when you loose a war.  They invaded Kuwait,  the lost, they agreed to the ceasefire.  

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

 

But perhaps  it's calculated. I wouldn't put it past Trump to have looked at this year's elections  and thought what I need to guarantee votes is a proper, patriotic war. And he'd of been right. Look at NoBodyImportant's posts.

Have you seen the mess the liberals are running?  Trump could literally post a video of himself snorting cocaine out of a dead hookers *** and his base will still vote for him. War doesn’t rally Americans anymore, it’s just part of everyday life. 

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

What on earth are you going on about.

 

All of those wars were proxy wars between the USA and Russia. You know, Russian that assassinated people on U.K. soil, who hacked U.K. internet systems for hospitals etc etc. 

You want to have a think who our allies are. 

 

What do you think would have happened if America just sat back? 

Truth. 

[NoBodyImportant]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Youre arguing over semantics.
Perpetual war = perpetual profits, and we are as guilty of it as the US, the staggering amounts of money spent on Iraq since 2003 on infrastructure .protection and defence, arent entirely paid for by western taxpayers, they are paid by bleeding cheap oil out of Iraq.

We only go after countries with resources, thats why some African countries, Myanmar and NK get left alone, they have nothing to take.

The US picks up the tab of around 80% of NATO costs , thats a fact.
And world history since WW2 has been dominated by 'defending' against the 'new' enemy , Russia.
Even though its plain to see they are not remotely interested in global domination.

Perpetual war/threat.

All those US bases are in Europe for a reason.  All the proxy wars we fight are probes to test the American resolve.  The massive troop pull out that Triggered a Turkish invasion was 39 military advisers and 11 civilian contractors.   Let that sink in.  50 Americans in Northern Syria kept Turkey at bay. Why? Because that’s all that was needed.   

[southeastpete]

America starts a war with a much smaller country, wins, and so they must do as you say and have a puppet government? F that, how about you just leave them be and find an alternative to their oil?

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, southeastpete said:

America starts a war with a much smaller country, wins, and so they must do as you say and have a puppet government? F that, how about you just leave them be and find an alternative to their oil?

That's not how the world works I'm afraid, never has , maybe never will.

The reason you live the life you do is because your ancestors picked up that flag and went out raiding.

[GingerCat]

16 minutes ago, southeastpete said:

America starts a war with a much smaller country, wins, and so they must do as you say and have a puppet government? F that, how about you just leave them be and find an alternative to their oil?

Don't cry when that country them imposes it's will on you and everyone else says "f that leave them be". Or that country trains and recruits and supports terrorists to carry out attacks on foreign soil (ours) to further it's destabilization of other countries in efforts to impose that will. 

Personally for the cost of a few missiles and support staff i think it was cheap and quick. 

[bostonmick]

9 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

To many American were exposed to Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq for that to be funny. Despite the jokes that the liberal left like to make  gas stock piles were found all over Iraq.  So much so that Congress had to recognize it and pay damages to soldiers exposed to it.   Bush didn’t publicize it as we were there to topple a dictator not just to get the weapons and get out. 

 

It was not meant to be funny. There is nothing funny about war wherever it is. There are lots of dictators still operating their vile regimes in many parts of the world but the west are not interested. I wonder why. People were calling for Blair to be tried as a war criminal over his part yet the Americans are heroes. I also think you will find that the actions of the allies has destabilised the region and allowed terror groups to flourish. Protect your own shores at all cost but never interfere with another country as much as you might not like them or their ways. 

[Walker570]

Everybody under 60yrs of age appears to have forgotten that the Americans got involved in a war with us a few years ago and due to their help and intervention we stand as free people able to voice our own opinons today.   Just had someone tell me that the SAS had this Iranian in their sights a few moons ago when he was orchestrating the deaths of our own military personel but Milliband, then Foriegn Secretary  pulled the plug and the Iranian lived on to orchestrate the deaths of hundreds more innocent people.

My view?      Damn good shooting.

[Newbie to this]

1 minute ago, bostonmick said:

Protect your own shores at all cost but never interfere with another country as much as you might not like them or their ways. 

Maybe we should have waited until the Germans invaded us 🤔

[southeastpete]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

That's not how the world works I'm afraid, never has , maybe never will.

The reason you live the life you do is because your ancestors picked up that flag and went out raiding.

So for how long after you win a war do the losers have to do as you say or be run by you?

[stuartyboy]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Everybody under 60yrs of age appears to have forgotten that the Americans got involved in a war with us a few years ago and due to their help and intervention we stand as free people able to voice our own opinons today.   Just had someone tell me that the SAS had this Iranian in their sights a few moons ago when he was orchestrating the deaths of our own military personel but Milliband, then Foriegn Secretary  pulled the plug and the Iranian lived on to orchestrate the deaths of hundreds more innocent people.

My view?      Damn good shooting.

Spot on 

[GingerCat]

1 hour ago, bostonmick said:

Protect your own shores at all cost but never interfere with another country as much as you might not like them or their ways. 

To do that you kay have to get your feet wet on someone elses. It's too late when they start dropping men on your airstrip or landing on your beaches. Or shooting up shooting centres and blowing up buses. 

For example the UK has about 30 minutes air superiority if the Russians came. He wouldn't have to go over Europe, simply fly round the top (presumably whilst others say "f that leave them to it"). They have revolutionised their entire armed forces so they are air mobile. Once we have lost air superiority they will use our own air strips. 

Iran has spent years, decades even, training, supporting and supplying terrorist groups to act in other countries (including ours). The quds force of which the late general was in charge has that as it's sole role. Nothing  else. It's a special ops commando outfit whose role in 2010 expanded to attacking not only the US and israel but also other western (Uk for example) countries.

Here's an example of such activity. ...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/09/iran-linked-terrorists-caught-stockpiling-explosives-north-west/amp/

 

 

[bostonmick]

3 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

To do that you kay have to get your feet wet on someone elses. It's too late when they start dropping men on your airstrip or landing on your beaches. Or shooting up shooting centres and blowing up buses. 

For example the UK has about 30 minutes air superiority if the Russians came. He wouldn't have to go over Europe, simply fly round the top (presumably whilst others say "f that leave them to it"). They have revolutionised their entire armed forces so they are air mobile. Once we have lost air superiority they will use our own air strips. 

Iran has spent years, decades even, training, supporting and supplying terrorist groups to act in other countries (including ours). The quds force of which the late general was in charge has that as it's sole role. Nothing  else. It's a special ops commando outfit whose role in 2010 expanded to attacking not only the US and israel but also other western (Uk for example) countries.

Here's an example of such activity. ...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/09/iran-linked-terrorists-caught-stockpiling-explosives-north-west/amp/

 

 

And as usual in these cases the authorities will probably have been fully aware of their existence. As has been the case of many of these terror supporters. What are or have been the benefits to the people of these countries or indeed Europe from having the west operate as the policeman of the world. 

[bostonmick]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Everybody under 60yrs of age appears to have forgotten that the Americans got involved in a war with us a few years ago and due to their help and intervention we stand as free people able to voice our own opinons today.   Just had someone tell me that the SAS had this Iranian in their sights a few moons ago when he was orchestrating the deaths of our own military personel but Milliband, then Foriegn Secretary  pulled the plug and the Iranian lived on to orchestrate the deaths of hundreds more innocent people.

My view?      Damn good shooting.

You ommited to say that if Japan had never attacked pearl harbour we would still be waiting on them joining in. And my word didn't we have to pay for it. Never has there been a more self centred country than the good ol us of a. I suppose this latest action is for the benefit of mankind and nothing to do with oil or money. 

[Walker570]

We had stuff on pay or return like any trade agreement and yes it came to a whole load of money only very recently the bill was paid off, money well spent. The way I read the background to the USA getting involved was not wholely based on the Jap attack but on the interaction between Churchill and The President, the two were closely interlinked.  Whatever, I doubt you would be having this conversation so freely now had they not stepped in to help.   Unfortunate for the thousands killed since Millibands gutless response.

[GingerCat]

12 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

And as usual in these cases the authorities will probably have been fully aware of their existence. As has been the case of many of these terror supporters. What are or have been the benefits to the people of these countries or indeed Europe from having the west operate as the policeman of the world. 

How do you think they're aware if not because they operate on foreign soil to protect "our shores" as you put it?  And it's a bit more than terror supporters, looks like the sort of thing that recently departed general would sanction and support.  Good job he's been blown up eh? (What with hizbollah being directly linked to his unit and all that). 

As for the west as the world's policeman, it's not, the US is as we (the uk) no longer do it. 

[treetree]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Everybody under 60yrs of age appears to have forgotten that the Americans got involved in a war with us a few years ago and due to their help and intervention we stand as free people able to voice our own opinions today.

But not as many people who have forgotten, or never even been aware of the fact is was the Russians who broke  Germany's back in the war, at a huge cost to themselves

 

51 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

For example the UK has about 30 minutes air superiority if the Russians came. 

The Russians aren't coming, despite America's best attempts to poke and prod and stir up as much trouble in Russia's backyard as they can and to demonize them as the bogey man just waiting to crush the west.

America's Military Industrial Complex needs to be kept fed, and seems to be hell bent on starting conflict where it can.

[southeastpete]

20 minutes ago, treetree said:

But not as many people who have forgotten, or never even been aware of the fact is was the Russians who broke  Germany's back in the war, at a huge cost to themselves

And as above without pearl harbour would they have bothered. And if Germany had taken the uk as well as Europe, do they think they’d have left america alone..?

[bostonmick]

1 hour ago, GingerCat said:

To do that you kay have to get your feet wet on someone elses. It's too late when they start dropping men on your airstrip or landing on your beaches. Or shooting up shooting centres and blowing up buses. 

For example the UK has about 30 minutes air superiority if the Russians came. He wouldn't have to go over Europe, simply fly round the top (presumably whilst others say "f that leave them to it"). They have revolutionised their entire armed forces so they are air mobile. Once we have lost air superiority they will use our own air strips. 

Iran has spent years, decades even, training, supporting and supplying terrorist groups to act in other countries (including ours). The quds force of which the late general was in charge has that as it's sole role. Nothing  else. It's a special ops commando outfit whose role in 2010 expanded to attacking not only the US and israel but also other western (Uk for example) countries.

Here's an example of such activity. ...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/09/iran-linked-terrorists-caught-stockpiling-explosives-north-west/amp/

 

 

According to the Americans the Russians have been coming for us for most of the century. Yet still we wait. I doubt Russia has any appetite for war. They like the yanks pick fights in small countries to test their new weapons for the open market

[GingerCat]

1 hour ago, treetree said:

The Russians aren't coming, 

I realise that, just using it as an example that if they wanted to they could and leaving them to arrive before doing anything is too late.

43 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

According to the Americans the Russians have been coming for us for most of the century. Yet still we wait. I doubt Russia has any appetite for war. They like the yanks pick fights in small countries to test their new weapons for the open market

I used Russia as an example of what would happen if we waited for them to arrive. Given they annexed a country over night and everyone has left them to carry on and not interfere, I don't think it's a bad example. 

The point being - if you don't interfer with other countries in efforts to protect or advance your own then someone else will do it to you and you won't have a country but rather be a puppet of someone else at best whilst everyone else looks on from afar and says " f that leave them to it" or whatever it was earlier. 

[Retsdon]

9 hours ago, treetree said:

America's Military Industrial Complex needs to be kept fed, and seems to be hell bent on starting conflict where it can.

This.

[henry d]

21 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

... But you just made my point.  Everyone looks toward the Americans to solve everything.   It’s not Americans responsibility to shield Eastern Europe from Russia. Japan from China, ect........   

No, we want you to keep your nose out of other people's businesses, your solving skills are nil, stop jumping on your horse and galloping after the bad injuns Hoss!