The demise of lead shot and small bore shot guns

[Smokersmith]

19 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Plain fact is nobody really needs lead. And if we dwell on the small bores the very subject of this thread, TSS ot HW 15 etc are better performers than lead ever was in small bores, and small bores on TSS make more sense than spacing it out in 12s and 10s where their bigger capacity will accommodate big steel and get to typical maximum range / lethality that way without the expense.

 Small bore small needs lots more shots from a kg of tss in a .410 than a typical 12 heavier shots and small bore were made for each other.

Ideal for the foreshore … but bl**dy expensive on a partridge day don't you think?

[lancer425]

7 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Ideal for the foreshore … but bl**dy expensive on a partridge day don't you think?

Well yes agree but if you want to move away from the ubiquitous 12ga, it has always been more expensive, and the light shot charges in small bores will help a little bit on cost. Reload helps more, and if you only use TSS for higher shots keeping steel for closer shots it is not all bad.

If you look at the dove video the kill ratios on steel are good compared to lead, and you know only too well steel is way better than its on paper specs suggest it could be.   With say a 20ga you could get away with most of what you do on the shores regarding ducks into decoys, and closer geese, but just swap out to TSS or HW15 for the longer range shots. game shooters could do the same.

In fact if you take note of the 80 yard club boasting on here, deep pockets / LONG SHOTS. They so need TSS.

Meanwhile on the shores, i hope this season has taught those of us who thought TSS was going to bring em down from the heavens those cautious pinks. Only to find out there is more to it than that, and next season settle down and use the improved ballistics to improve lethality,  or improve performance with the aforesaid smaller guns. rather than trying to increase range as significantly as they first thought or were leed to believe. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

56 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Plain fact is nobody really needs lead. And if we dwell on the small bores the very subject of this thread, TSS ot HW 15 etc are better performers than lead ever was in small bores, and small bores on TSS make more sense than spacing it out in 12s and 10s where their bigger capacity will accommodate big steel and get to typical maximum range / lethality that way without the expense.

 Small bore small needs lots more shots from a kg of tss in a .410 than a typical 12 heavier shots and small bore were made for each other.

I fully accept that the subject of this thread is the smaller bores.

But as in everything, volume and hence money will win everytime.

Consequently the whole shebang will be driven by the 12 bore shooters and what they will accept.

[lancer425]

15 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I fully accept that the subject of this thread is the smaller bores.

But as in everything, volume and hence money will win everytime.

Consequently the whole shebang will be driven by the 12 bore shooters and what they will accept.

Well no, we 12 bore shooters or not, have no say, lead will go,  we might fight it off a bit longer but quicker we get with the programme put the time on learn the ropes with steel the quicker and less painfull the process will be. 

We were ditched into non lead 20 years ago in Wildfowling, with next to no components available and any factory ammo was trully terrible.

 the transition for the rest of the shooting world is by comparison a walk in the park, the hard work done, by the wildfowlers / ammo firms already.

Another video that shows steel in a true light is this old from 1980 fish and wildlife video. if the shooter gets to grips with steel it works, the spacific gravity of a shot pellet is only a relatively minor part. You got to be in it to win it, if your on the bird your in with a good chance steel or lead. A miss is a miss in any density. .

"

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by lancer425

[Guest cookoff013]

Thats a great vid. Been re-watching it for years

[rbrowning2]

Lancer425, I which I could share your optimistic view on a total ban of lead shot and lead in ammunition.

This is nothing new the environmental need to move away from lead, so why has the industry not yet found that magic option offering a like for like replacement at the same price points for every gauge in popular use? Answer because currently it cannot be achieved.

or just about in 12ga if you are happy to substitute lead shot pollution for non biodegradable plastic wad pollution.

Suggesting using TSS or bismuth as a everyday alternative, is at today’s prices just not going to happen, likewise their is a reason the new steel biodegradable wad cartridges are some £100 per 1000 more if not why would a manufacture not take market lead and reduce the price by £100? Bottom line is It is not technically/commercially possible to do so.

You say clay shooting is healthy yet the industry say their looks to be a £200 per 1000 price barrier that the average club level shooter enjoying a few clays appears not to want to cross. Then looking around clubs I see mainly middle aged people shooting, ok if in a well paid job but who on a modest pension is going to want to pay £300 plus for cartridges or if they do they probably will just shoot less frequently than they do now, resulting in less cartridges being purchased and less clay grounds.

Yes a ban is likely and yes we will have to change but the impact is not without risk and far from certain.

as a idea for how healthy the industry is one uk cartridge manufacture reported operating profit down by 29.2% for year end March 2019.

  

Edited February 22, 2020 by rbrowning2

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Lancer425, I which I could share your optimistic view on a total ban of lead shot and lead in ammunition.

This is nothing new the environmental need to move away from lead, so why has the industry not yet found that magic option offering a like for like replacement at the same price points for every gauge in popular use? Answer because currently it cannot be achieved.

or just about in 12ga if you are happy to substitute lead shot pollution for non biodegradable plastic wad pollution.

Suggesting using TSS or bismuth as a everyday alternative, is at today’s prices just not going to happen, likewise their is a reason the new steel biodegradable wad cartridges are some £100 per 1000 more if not why would a manufacture not take market lead and reduce the price by £100? Bottom line is It is not technically/commercially possible to do so.

You say clay shooting is healthy yet the industry say their looks to be a £200 per 1000 price barrier that the average club level shooter enjoying a few clays appears not to want to cross. Then looking around clubs I see mainly middle aged people shooting, ok if in a well paid job but who on a modest pension is going to want to pay £300 plus for cartridges or if they do they probably will just shoot less frequently than they do now, resulting in less cartridges being purchased and less clay grounds.

Yes a ban is likely and yes we will have to change but the impact is not without risk and far from certain.

as a idea for how healthy the industry is one uk cartridge manufacture reported operating profit down by 29.2% for year end March 2019.

  

It is not a case of being optimistic, nor anything to do with the cartridge industry and what and what it can not achieve.  There is no magic option that matches performance or price either, any more than there was when wildfowlers were thrown in the deep end. "there you go cold i know but sink or swim". We swam with it and we are where we are today.  Not as cheap as lead, but better than not wildfowling.

 Sometimes in life we have to change, again wildfowlers roll with the punches, we non of us want to use plastic i know i and others on here were more than interested when we heard about bio degradable wads, And as soon as they are required by law we will be using them . If not available we will use card cup non tox wads even if not perfect, but at least we will be wildfowling.

 I do not want to sing the praises of wildfowlers too much, but cost although a factor, is not a key thing. Many will spend spend spend to keep in the game. BL**dy expemsive or not.

As it is now Steel is the most economic viable option, and apart from the bio wad issue just now, we are good to go with steel with no loss to anything. Older antique guns Bismuth and Cheaper copper are options. More expensive Yes but all things in life can never stay the same. Shooting is no exeption. lead is toxic it will go.  Get your acts together with your gun chokes and choice of ammo and you will be fine . Gripeing about lead coming in is futile. the only unknown factor is exactly when.

Edited February 22, 2020 by lancer425

[johnnytheboy]

In terms of a lead ban and small bores what would be effective? 

20b is steel still an option? I haven’t used a 20b and steel

28b would this lead to 3” chambered guns to try to get the payload out?

410b is this really bismuth and tungsten effective for hunting?

[lancer425]

27 minutes ago, johnnytheboy said:

In terms of a lead ban and small bores what would be effective? 

20b is steel still an option? I haven’t used a 20b and steel

28b would this lead to 3” chambered guns to try to get the payload out?

410b is this really bismuth and tungsten effective for hunting?

Steel in 20 bore is ok, you can get good info on reloading and, even if you are just buying factory fodder, it will work. I use Gamebore suppersteel  jaguar 21 gram 3s 4s and 5s . You can use these decoying ducks, and close geese if you make sure its patterning well at the range you want to shoot. Bismuth is another option, i only reload Bismuth and i buffer it in felt wads and seals maylar wraper , i load copper as in pure copper. it works at high velocity in a 3 inch load which uses LIL gun. Tss is morec expensive but gets Geese at typical wildfowling ranges, i will try HW15 next season in the 20ga. 28 ga is again capable and has options in the heavy stuff, but with steel probably 6s and a close to max load will get typical duck decoying ammo covered well enough. I am no .410 or 28 expert but with .410 i think i would be looking at 7s steel and and bring the ranges well back to give the gun a chance. HW13 or copper/ bismuth would duplicate in fact improve on lead but at more expence as you go up in density.

>410s always seem to do better on 1/2 oz 2.5 inch loads, the 3c vinch more payload never improved things proportionately from what little i did with them, i will say SP3 was the powder for .410 and its where i would start for Bismuth load. Copper is good in that its tough hard like steel it works good at high velocity it is slightly cheaper than bismuth too. also it gets around the plaswad issue it is fine with felt and bore contact, although i wrap it and buffer it too. you gain about 4% average on the pattern plate most loads with buffer / copper. not as much as the % improvement with bismuth or Indeed lead perhaps but worth working with all the same.

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by lancer425

[lancer425]

2 hours ago, cookoff013 said:

Thats a great vid. Been re-watching it for years

it is a great video, the guide shel bloc is clearly taken by steel all those years ago. He saw the light then.   One thing i did notice when i started with steel 20 years ago, was the difference in shooting it to lead. I noticed it then, but now it feels like there is no difference. And i switch one to the other routenely, and can not say i consciously feel any different about it now.

But they clearly recognised it right back then, and that coach skilled shot or not was struggling a little at first it seemed.

[wymberley]

On 31/01/2020 at 12:48, wymberley said:

I have to confess that I've always had difficulty trying to convince myself that there was not more than just the one in place.

Increasingly looking as though that was justified.

[rbrowning2]

I think it is easier to accept the use of steel in 12ga especially for wild fowling, where I doubt you fire many cartridges in a season.
If the change drives away people from the sport then costs will only go up to those remaining as the falling sales will need to be made good by those who continue be that wild Fowler’s , Game shooters, clay shooting but we will have two choices shoot non toxic or don’t shoot.  

Edited February 22, 2020 by rbrowning2

[lancer425]

13 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

I think it is easier to accept the use of steel in 12ga especially for wild fowling, where I doubt you fire many cartridges in a season.
If the change drives away people from the sport then costs will only go up to those remaining as the falling sales will need to be made good by those who continue be that wild Fowler’s , Game shooters, clay shooting but we will have two choices shoot non toxic or don’t shoot.  

Wildfowling is generaly lower volume shooting, but it depends what you are doing. And how often you go.

 Three days a week  various shores / Scotland trips 6 times a year over to the west coast from Lincolnshire over to the wash/ Norfolk it all adds up. its not so much cartridges but diesel.   So it all depends on what your commitment is to your sport.

  Most not all wildfowlers reload and many pattern test, shoot pigeons / crows with steel. You can reload steel cheaper than you can lead for pigeons.

Indi cast shot size S7 "2.8MM" £40 plus vat for 28KGS last i got from McANTS / Dinnington. Powder is the killer and B&P 28 wads., Clay ground cases, CX2000 or Rio g1000s if in Rio saga eley or hull cases and your in for some cheap pigeon shooting. Reloader need be nothing more than a lee loadal 2 £70 posted off Ebay. CSB5 is cheap or was a few months ago.

 

[Westley]

I have read all of the above with interest and I wonder how it is that people are actually living longer, when in actual fact,  we should be knee deep in lead poisoned corpses, both human and animal. I know of several of the 'older generation', who have given up shooting already. All the hassle of Doctors letters, General Licences and of course the latest, the lead debacle. I have said it before, I know, BUT maybe I can take the lead load of sphericals seriously,  WHEN I stop getting my water supplied through the damned stuff.  

[Dave at kelton]

May I ask a stupid question please? When I ran my own shoot over forestry commission land (25 years) the leases stated that steel shot could not be used as it damaged timber. What is the current position if anyone still rents from FC and what will they do if this comes in; ban all game shooting on their land.

[Old farrier]

15 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

May I ask a stupid question please? When I ran my own shoot over forestry commission land (25 years) the leases stated that steel shot could not be used as it damaged timber. What is the current position if anyone still rents from FC and what will they do if this comes in; ban all game shooting on their land.

No steel shot on fc land down here To be used for shooting game or vermin 

damage to timber and future damage to machinery and or operator when it goes to the sawmill  

[Dave at kelton]

Just now, Old farrier said:

No steel shot on fc land down here To be used for shooting game or vermin 

damage to timber and future damage to machinery and or operator when it goes to the sawmill  

No change then from when I rented in Oxfordshire. A major issue in the offing.

[Old farrier]

Just now, Dave at kelton said:

No change then from when I rented in Oxfordshire. A major issue in the offing.

Hopefully they can work it out not sure if many people would shoot squirrels with bismuth 🙄

[mossy835]

not many people will be shooting then,

[lancer425]

25 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

May I ask a stupid question please? When I ran my own shoot over forestry commission land (25 years) the leases stated that steel shot could not be used as it damaged timber. What is the current position if anyone still rents from FC and what will they do if this comes in; ban all game shooting on their land.

Bismuth ammo was/ is labeled forest for just such occasions.

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

I have read all of the above with interest and I wonder how it is that people are actually living longer, when in actual fact,  we should be knee deep in lead poisoned corpses, both human and animal. I know of several of the 'older generation', who have given up shooting already. All the hassle of Doctors letters, General Licences and of course the latest, the lead debacle. I have said it before, I know, BUT maybe I can take the lead load of sphericals seriously,  WHEN I stop getting my water supplied through the damned stuff.  

I do not think any data exists to show or even try to show lead as a killer, lead is toxic they do not want it in their world period!.

Copper is supper toxic but its also very much non lead, we do not comply to non tox just non lead. Lead is the dirty four letter word they want it gone and we signed up to the afro/ Eurasian bird agreement dickies years ago so it went from fowling. and it will go from everywhere else eventually.   Who knows it might never get to see another game shooting season here.

[Piebob]

I'm hearing rumours of a statement from BASC & CA (and maybe Eley?) early next week re a voluntary lead shot ban within next few years. If so, then it'll soon be mandatory.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Yes those rumours are gathering pace.

[clumber]

I shoot a Damascus barrelled guns and I also shoot modern steel proof guns. 

IMHO the sensible approach to lead would be, If shooting for personal use of quarry then lead should be available to use without restrictions, ie amount purchased or shot per annum. Wildfowl restrictions still remain. Ridiculous as it is for inland fowl.
If shooting on a commercial shoot where the quarry is to be sold or gifted into the food chain then non toxic shot to be used.

How many guns are going to be instantly consigned to scrap if a common sense approach isn't implemented, instead of a blanket (voluntarily my ....) ban.

But then again common sense ain't so common anymore. 

 

[simonm]

25 minutes ago, clumber said:

How many guns are going to be instantly consigned to scrap if a common sense approach isn't implemented, instead of a blanket (voluntarily my ....) ban.

Exactly, a handy way of delivering what a lot of groups want to achieve 

Edited February 22, 2020 by simonm