rbrowning2 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 The Denmark shooters comments were interesting, no mention that they are polluting their shoreline with plastic wads and maximum distance 30mtrs also no mention in the video about small gauge guns. Just cannot see the high gun game shooters giving up what they love until forced to via a legal ban. Have not looked but bet the ballistics for standard steel cartridges is not good ok for clays but live game? Looks more like an PR attempt to help the cartridge manufactures drive up sales on steel cartridges to make the numbers more economically viable and try and take the moral ground back with the likes of WJ and DEFRA re the release of game birds. But if WJ get their way their will be no game shooting full stop and lead is a tiny part of their legal arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonm Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 Full statement here: https://www.countryside-alliance.org/news/2020/2/a-joint-statement-on-the-future-of-lead-shot?utm_campaign=1314630_24%2F02%2F2020&utm_medium=dotmailer&utm_source=Countryside Alliance&dm_i=44G9,S6DI,5IHZF4,3DSFB,1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 When the people who are supposed to be fighting for you, are the ones pushing for the ban, what chance have you got!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 Lead ban came to Angling 40 plus years ago. So.........40 plus years later......no suitable alternative, just alternatives you learn to live with. Point of note for non anglers, lead is still available size 8 and smaller and over 1oz. It was decided 8 and smaller posed no threat to wildlife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 On 01/02/2020 at 01:48, figgy said: Talk of lead entering food stuffs. Most of the UK drink from lead water pipes, that was deemed safe after all the scaremongering. It only gets changed to plastic when it bursts or gets damaged. What's worse lead or plastic in your food. Soon a lead ban is in place even for game etc it will also be shoved through for all shooting. 1800 FPS steel clay loads will be the norm like in Denmark. Powders will have to change too. hello, yes back in the Victorian times lead water pipe to properties were the norm, most in cities and towns, not an easy way to fix if leaking, like figgy stated it was deemed safe as a water carrier, a lot of house holders still have lead pipe from the old mains without knowing, in one local town there must be 50% still with lead pipes, as far as i know no one has died from lead poisoning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Smokersmith said: Whilst I can appreciate that as an early adopter, you post after post trying to help people to see the possibilities of non-toxic .... I cannot see how the fact that 'you’re OK’ is relevant to my post about the value of fine guns in the future. My collection is also future proof, but there’s no doubt in my mind that many cherished heirlooms will plummet in value over the next years. My point was as far back as before the Wildfowling lead ban, it was clear to me and many others that now / then, was the time to move on if you did not want the expense of "at that time ITM / bismuth". It was obvious it would eventually come. Here 20 years latter we are still using lead in much of our shooting activity, looking at voluntary move from lead, so at this stage no change, so time to look at exporting any guns shooters might want to recoupe the vallues from as i did all those years ago. I had no where near the time, and unlike game shooters etc i did not have the option to use up my lead ammo stock or still use my guns for their designed use in England. I see this as YES! potentially devaluing best guns, but having said that bismuth and other options still exist and the option to retain and use such guns is still there. On another vein, we realistically all should be no strangers to the fact the SxS market generally is on its arsm!! anyway so to what level this will impact values is unclear, and i suggest it might not be anywhere as bad as first thought once the dust settles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 More relevant … thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 33 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: When the people who are supposed to be fighting for you, are the ones pushing for the ban, what chance have you got!!! They "all the representative bodies" can see the need to move away from lead. They are asking all live bird shooters to help them achieve a move away from lead. They did a good job defending lead so far , but It has to come to an end, this is the start of that transition. It is going to be a messy job but somebody has to do it. I think they are going the right way about achieving this, lets face facts Shooters were not going to change on their own, Were they?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, lancer425 said: I think they are going the right way about achieving this, lets face facts Shooters were not going to change on their own, Were they?. So by your logic a voluntary ban is going to achieve what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 11 minutes ago, lancer425 said: They "all the representative bodies" can see the need to move away from lead. They are asking all live bird shooters to help them achieve a move away from lead. They did a good job defending lead so far , but It has to come to an end, this is the start of that transition. It is going to be a messy job but somebody has to do it. I think they are going the right way about achieving this, lets face facts Shooters were not going to change on their own, Were they?. Yes and now all live bird shooters will eventually have to like it or lump it, especially as now no one is fighting their corner. You say the lead ban is coming anyway, I say it's now a whole lot closer, as the shooting orgs are now the ones pushing it and no one is opposing it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 Some serious stockpiling of ammunition will be going on then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 Yep, time to buy in a serious stock of lead shot for my 410. MIND!!! Like the log burning ban will we see the Lead Police out and about along with the Log Police ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainhastings Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 Yea and the recycling police, the don;t shock collar your dog police, The electric car police Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: So by your logic a voluntary ban is going to achieve what? In an ideal sittuation it will give the chance for shooters to use up their lead ammo stocks in many cases, and at the same time, give time for a learning curve on steel or other allternatives. Experiment patter field test and adjust technique or guns chokes "aftermarkers if need be" and basicaly work out for themselves what is involved. Cartridge companies will be selling less lead ammo hopefully stop production apart from clay ammo. Then start looking at new bio wads to stave off the plastics issue. and perhaps improve on availability of TSS etc on a comercial scale for those willing/ able to afford it. Bismuth options for older guns or those wanting to use it. Who knows steel or copper cored pellets with a relatively thick copper cladding capable of withstanding internal balistics when in direct contact with a guns bores and yet do no damage to said bores in use. Toungsten cor / copoper clad could in theory duplicate Lead exactly on GRAMS percc / mass but be way better at not deforming and thus deliver better patterns than Lead ever did more akin to a steel pattern. Work that process out and it would sell. get it done cheap" doubtfull it involves tougsten " and it would sell sell sell. Even with steel as the core and copper clad it will up density a little, and make steel more usable in any old gun etc. A pipe dream i know, but it would be nice if ever possible. And no we can not clad lead its still lead and thats the end of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Some serious stockpiling of ammunition will be going on then. We heard this in wildfowling remember? it necver happened, ok some had a few put by a bag or ten of Copper plated winchester lead BBs etc. but really NO1 It was law a civil law, and unless you loved fishing that much you could live without shooting it just did not happen. Nobody ever got prosecuted for lead in fowling AFAIK. but once its in everywhere , i fear we might see a few prosecutions filltering through, but lets hope not hey. and lets hope most take up the dropping lead option and slow run up to this controversial obstacle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 3 hours ago, Newbie to this said: Yes and now all live bird shooters will eventually have to like it or lump it, especially as now no one is fighting their corner. You say the lead ban is coming anyway, I say it's now a whole lot closer, as the shooting orgs are now the ones pushing it and no one is opposing it! Pushing implies force. this is more in the lines of good sound fatherly advice . "just say no son just say no its a dirty habit you need to stop." You got time to before that pretty girl comes down to visit next month. You know she hates it. Think about the long term. Better without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Walker570 said: Yep, time to buy in a serious stock of lead shot for my 410. MIND!!! Like the log burning ban will we see the Lead Police out and about along with the Log Police ? No body ever got done for using lead in fowlingAFAIK. so who knows, its a hell of a risk thoufg, it will be a civil law as it is with fowling. you are fishing if cought. If anyone os ok with that , and lead means that much to them. than they best carry on i supose. But once its out of all game i see it as getting more convictions. But time wioll tell, lets hope we all get with the transition and work with it rather than looking at ways of bucking it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 1 minute ago, lancer425 said: this is more in the lines of good sound fatherly advice How so??? This is definitely a case of we are no longer fighting your corner and you will have to accept that lead shot is gone, as no one is left fighting for it. It will not affect me yet as I don't shoot birds, I only shoot clays. But it will eventually. If the orgs aren't pushing it then why make a statement stating that very thing are you suggesting that the ban will always be voluntary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stagboy Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 7 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: The Denmark shooters comments were interesting, no mention that they are polluting their shoreline with plastic wads No, but according the Danish Hunting association, they have actually asked their government to ban plastic wads in three years time. They say there are biodegrable alternatives coming on stream so plastic is no longer needed for steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 Well it is goodbye to my Damascus barrel muzzle loaders sporting guns my wildfowling guns were pensioned off with the lead shot ban for fowling has there is not a suitable alternative to lead . Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 52 minutes ago, lancer425 said: No body ever got done for using lead in fowlingAFAIK. so who knows, its a hell of a risk thoufg, it will be a civil law as it is with fowling. you are fishing if cought. If anyone os ok with that , and lead means that much to them. than they best carry on i supose. But once its out of all game i see it as getting more convictions. But time wioll tell, lets hope we all get with the transition and work with it rather than looking at ways of bucking it. As in California, the Lead Police armed with magnets checking every gun as they report for their session on the ducks. .The whole thing is aimed at ridding us of our guns and ability to go hunting fowl in my opinion and the Associations are just going belly up. Funny you mention fishing because it was lazy untidy fisherpersons who got us into this trouble anyway with all the lead weights thrown about along with hundreds of yards of nylon line. Edited February 24, 2020 by Walker570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 On 23/02/2020 at 09:19, Scully said: We've been here before and the debate simply goes round in circles. The facts on both sides were debated at the highest level until well after the cows came home, and it was shown that lead shot has no detrimental effects to humans if consumed in the quantities it is consumed as part of a healthy diet. If there were, then legislation preventing you feeding your children meat containing lead shot would exist. It doesn't. Even Avery ( when I debated the matter with him ) conceded that freedom to choose did exist. What has changed is government policy on environmental issues, and as a result our shooting organisations have been told that lead is going, it's up to you to tell your membership.....ring any bells? 😉 You won't find ANY opposition from your shooting organisations; what WILL happen is an increase in the terminology singing the praises of non lead shot, to get the membership onside. It's still a ban, merely via another door. As it once was. You may well be right, but didn't our shooting organisations state no ban until a cheap and effective alternative were found? Doesn't steel fit this criteria? Doesn't steel fit this criteria? No, not necessarily, no good in an old British or other with 2 1/2" chambers, which will be many thousands of guns that are in active use today. Who is going to compensate the owners of such guns who will not be able to use them in 5 years time, through no choice of there own? Did not handgun users get compensation? 6 hours ago, Centrepin said: Lead ban came to Angling 40 plus years ago. So.........40 plus years later......no suitable alternative, just alternatives you learn to live with. Point of note for non anglers, lead is still available size 8 and smaller and over 1oz. It was decided 8 and smaller posed no threat to wildlife. Split shot is a completely different ball game and you can still use it where it's most useful, No. 8's and below and over an 1oz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Penelope said: Split shot is a completely different ball game and you can still use it where it's most useful, No. 8's and below and over an 1oz. I absolutely agree, groups of 8 etc. The point I was making is in my opinion the alternatives are not as good. Otherwise we wouldn't bunch 8s. If it's not "toxic" 8 and below or 1oz and above why between? I do remember that after the lead ban in angling, the antis backed right off for a long time and to a certain extent still are backed off🤔 Angling in general, refused to back field sports mainly due to fox hunting by horse and hounds but that's another story. Just thinking aloud here, will the antis back off if lead is banned like they did in angling? Maybe that's what this is all about. Get the antis off our backs and present a different image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Centrepin said: I absolutely agree, groups of 8 etc. The point I was making is in my opinion the alternatives are not as good. Otherwise we wouldn't bunch 8s. If it's not "toxic" 8 and below or 1oz and above why between? I do remember that after the lead ban in angling, the antis backed right off for a long time and to a certain extent still are backed off🤔 Angling in general, refused to back field sports mainly due to fox hunting by horse and hounds but that's another story. Just thinking aloud here, will the antis back off if lead is banned like they did in angling? Maybe that's what this is all about. Get the antis off our backs and present a different image. As a course angler (not as much anymore), the vast majority of fellow course angler's are hypocrites. I had many an argument over the hunting with dogs ban on angling forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted February 24, 2020 Report Share Posted February 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Penelope said: As a course angler (not as much anymore), the vast majority of fellow course angler's are hypocrites. I had many an argument over the hunting with dogs ban on angling forums. I've seen plenty going on. I abstain. I love my fishing, but I'm a fair weather fisherman and don't go if it's cold or raining. Unfortunately within a few years I maybe a fair weather shooter too. If I get too cold and wet it can put me in bed for a couple or three days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.