Another London Terror Attack.

[Scully]

You’re all missing the point in my opinion. The point is, yet another gremlin runs amok and the general public have no choice but to play the part of victims. Why? 
PM’s past and present and all manner of so called VIP’s have personal protection in the way of armed personnel, yet us lowly law abiding general public are, by law, prevented from carrying any effective means of self defence.

Dont forget, when seconds count those armed police are minutes away. 👍

[panoma1]

Well it seems more and more people are carrying knives for their own protection, if the non-terrorist stabbing in London and the big cities are any thing to go by!....I can only see this trend increasing if the police/law/authorities can’t protect the public!

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

Well it seems more and more people are carrying knives for their own protection, if the non-terrorist stabbing in London and the big cities are any thing to go by!....I can only see this trend increasing if the police/law/authorities can’t protect the public!

A case of, better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

Well it seems more and more people are carrying knives for their own protection, if the non-terrorist stabbing in London and the big cities are any thing to go by!....I can only see this trend increasing if the police/law/authorities can’t protect the public!

 

40 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

A case of, better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6? 

But it is often quoted that most of these knives are carried for protection because the carrier fears others.

 

It is also often quoted that often the carrier ends up stabbed by his own weapon that he has been misguidedly carrying for defence!

 

Tighten the laws, only carry for a good reason like many of us do, carry out lots of stop and search operations and come down like a ton of bricks on anyone carrying without good reason.

Edited February 6, 2020 by TIGHTCHOKE
SPELLAGE!

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

come down like a ton of bricks on anyone carrying without good reason.

If only....

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jan/08/uk-drill-rapper-headie-one-jailed-for-six-months-for-carrying-knife

6 months, and hardly his first offence.

Adjei has been jailed three times before, most recently in October 2014, when he was sentenced to 30 months for being in possession of nearly £30,000-worth of heroin and cocaine, as well as a lock knife. He was arrested in Aberdeen, where Adjei had acted as a drugs courier to pay off debts,  according to his solicitor.

I feel a pattern emerging .

8 months

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/dec/14/j-hus-jail-knife

 

J Hus has six previous convictions for 10 offences between 2011 and 2016, including possession of a knife and violent disorder. This is the fourth time he has been caught with a knife. He has previously received an asbo.

 

 

 

The judge can hand out 4 year sentences BTW

[Dave-G]

3 hours ago, henry d said:

Yet you were the one to raise the matter in the first place?

I made a valid comment that is and has been proven to be correct - that you so typically rubbished Henry.

I'm Just trying to make sure this specific subject doesn't become a bigger discussion on the thread.

If you feel you have to argue it further do it via pm please.

[henry d]

Nah not doing the PM stuff and you were selective in the link, it meant actual war not a kiddy on one that small sections of Islamic culture are perverting, which strangely enough is where we (you) started.

[Rewulf]

48 minutes ago, henry d said:

you were selective in the link, it meant actual war

You mean like a 'holy' war 😃

jihadi

/dʒɪˈhɑːdi/

Learn to pronounce

noun

 

1. a person involved in a jihad; an Islamic militant.

    

   jihad

   /dʒɪˈhɑːd/

   Learn to pronounce

   noun

   ISLAM

    

   1. a struggle or fight against the enemies of Islam.

      "he declared a jihad against the infidels"

[Dave-G]

Rightly or wrongly, Jihadis are at war with us Henry as you well know. I'm thinking this must be the wrong week of the month for you.

 

One of us needs to step back from this, you persist in picking squabbles so I'll break off this particular topic with you in order to avoid the thread getting locked.

[Oldgun]

On 02/02/2020 at 17:03, Davyo said:

It will be another that's been on the radar for months.Stead of putting them on the radar,they should just take them out on the QT.Remove the threat before more innocent UK BRITISH citizens are hurt.Great job by the Police, no need to ask questions,just take them out.

I'll drink to that,when they have committed and been arrested after a terrorist attack why not bring the hanging law back just for this offense?!!!!!!

[old man]

On 06/02/2020 at 08:38, Scully said:

You’re all missing the point in my opinion. The point is, yet another gremlin runs amok and the general public have no choice but to play the part of victims. Why? 
PM’s past and present and all manner of so called VIP’s have personal protection in the way of armed personnel, yet us lowly law abiding general public are, by law, prevented from carrying any effective means of self defence.

Dont forget, when seconds count those armed police are minutes away. 👍

Succintly put.

Maybe just an illustration of the high esteem we are held in?

[GingerCat]

On 06/02/2020 at 08:38, Scully said:

You’re all missing the point in my opinion. The point is, yet another gremlin runs amok and the general public have no choice but to play the part of victims. Why? 
PM’s past and present and all manner of so called VIP’s have personal protection in the way of armed personnel, yet us lowly law abiding general public are, by law, prevented from carrying any effective means of self defence.

Dont forget, when seconds count those armed police are minutes away. 👍

The problem is allowing the carrying of weapons for self defence would literally change society as well know it in seconds. There's plenty of young men who have never been in trouble with police that are gang members and involved in serious criminality. They would all be packing. Shootings would be rife. Muggings would all be carried out with pepper spray or guns. 

Policing would change overnight also.  No longer could you approach one as you do, once inside the 21 foot draw distance he/she would be making decisions they don't have to currently.  We would resemble the states very very quickly.  A few people who have never had any trouble but could carry might feel a bit better but the majority would be worse off by a long way. Not something I'd like. 

[Rewulf]

30 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

The problem is allowing the carrying of weapons for self defence would literally change society as well know it in seconds. There's plenty of young men who have never been in trouble with police that are gang members and involved in serious criminality. They would all be packing. Shootings would be rife. Muggings would all be carried out with pepper spray or guns

Im sorry , but I dont think that is what was meant.
At the moment a member of the public cannot arm themselves with ANYTHING for the purposes of self defence, even in their own home.
No one is talking about relaxing the firearms laws to the point of open/concealed carry, however as you are probably aware , NI has a completely different outlook on this.

30 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Policing would change overnight also.  No longer could you approach one as you do, once inside the 21 foot draw distance he/she would be making decisions they don't have to currently.  We would resemble the states very very quickly.  A few people who have never had any trouble but could carry might feel a bit better but the majority would be worse off by a long way. Not something I'd like. 

You are thinking along the lines of the police being 'outgunned' I believe, and the not so popular end result of all police being armed ?
Again, we are talking a million miles away from the 2nd amendment here.

IF it ever came down to members of the public carrying firearms for self defence, the vetting procedure would have to be extreme.
But think more along the lines of a Qbaton or a knife for members of the public who APPLIED for the right to carry, and were granted after a possible interview and training ?

The fact is , there are many people who today carry such weapons anyway, and while some are for outright criminal intentions , others are making themselves criminals. because they dont feel safe, and by that Im NOT referring to drug dealers defending their patch.

The law in this country had a little shake up after Tony Martin, where people realised just how much they were not allowed to defend themselves.
It needs another one now , with the tide of street crime rising expotentially.

[GingerCat]

23 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im sorry , but I dont think that is what was meant.
At the moment a member of the public cannot arm themselves with ANYTHING for the purposes of self defence, even in their own home.
No one is talking about relaxing the firearms laws to the point of open/concealed carry, however as you are probably aware , NI has a completely different outlook on this.

You are thinking along the lines of the police being 'outgunned' I believe, and the not so popular end result of all police being armed ?
Again, we are talking a million miles away from the 2nd amendment here.

IF it ever came down to members of the public carrying firearms for self defence, the vetting procedure would have to be extreme.
But think more along the lines of a Qbaton or a knife for members of the public who APPLIED for the right to carry, and were granted after a possible interview and training ?

The fact is , there are many people who today carry such weapons anyway, and while some are for outright criminal intentions , others are making themselves criminals. because they dont feel safe, and by that Im NOT referring to drug dealers defending their patch.

The law in this country had a little shake up after Tony Martin, where people realised just how much they were not allowed to defend themselves.
It needs another one now , with the tide of street crime rising expotentially.

I was replying to scully who has long advocated carrying for self defence.

My point stands - it would change the country overnight and not for the best. As for police being "outgunned". They wouldn't. The policing model would change and it would reflect that of other armed countries with a similar culture. The states is about the nearest. Hence my reference. It makes no difference if it were a knife or gun people carried. 

The baton you refer to is useless for self defence and requires years of learning. It's hard enough with a 21 inch extendable baton. So hard in fact i cant remember the last time i used one. Preferring to use other methods. As for a knife, really. There's countless stabbings every day, go to kings college and sit outside the A and E.  I've spent far to long at that place. It's always young men, often not known to police, coming in with intestines hanging out, lungs punctured. Sometimes shot. Often shot themselves stuffing a gun in a pocket or down their jeans.

None of that would be prevented if we carried for protection, it would get worse.  

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

None of that would be prevented if we carried for protection, it would get worse.  

I think youre missing the crucial point, it IS getting worse.

It also comes back to the question legal carry against illegal carry, when YOU as the innocent party CANNOT carry any kind of defensive weapon, but those who would do you harm can carry whatever they want, somethings got to give.
That will be when ordinary people start carrying knifes, walking sticks (they dont need) various sprays and for those that know how to use them Qbaton style 'glass breakers'

Its not a case of WANTING to break the law, its a case of survival, on these increasingly dangerous streets, where calling for the police to come and save them is just not going to happen quick enough.

Think of it this way , you must know yourself that many households have some kind of weapon , behind the door, under the bed, likely never to be used, but a comfort to those who fear the world outside coming into to molest them and theirs ?
Are these people criminals ?

[GingerCat]

53 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

Think of it this way , you must know yourself that many households have some kind of weapon , behind the door, under the bed, likely never to be used, but a comfort to those who fear the world outside coming into to molest them and theirs ?
Are these people criminals ?

No, it's behind their front door in a private dwelling. The law is clear on that. 

Do you really think allowing people to carry weapons will stem the violence on the streets or make it worse? 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, GingerCat said:

Do you really think allowing people to carry weapons will stem the violence on the streets or make it worse? 

Why would it make it worse, theres plenty already doing it !
Its the legal aspect, if you happen to search the handbag of a 60 year old woman, and shes carrying pepper spray and a 5 inch blade, are you going to arrest her, possibly criminalise her, because she fears walking the streets ?
If carrying an article for the purposes of self defence is such a bad idea now, when the chances of attack are fairly small, will the attitude change as that risk of attack grows ?

Please dont construe this as an attack on the police and their performance, I truly believe if there were twice as many cops out there, it wouldnt make a huge difference to street crime.
Some stiffer sentencing might, but thats another story.

Its the issue of trusting upright members of the public to legally carry a weapon if they so desire, via a licensing system.
We as FAC/SGC holders are trusted to carry and use for sporting and pest control purposes , giving someone the legal right to carry a weapon doesnt automatically create a homicidal maniac.

11 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

No, it's behind their front door in a private dwelling. The law is clear on that. 

Is it ?
So a sword , machete , spiky club is perfectly acceptable as long as you only swing it in your own home ? 

[udderlyoffroad]

7 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

No, it's behind their front door in a private dwelling. The law is clear on that. 

The law is clearly...ambiguous and requires further overhaul.

 

8 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Do you really think allowing people to carry weapons will stem the violence on the streets or make it worse? 

You've made the logical leap that criminals who otherwise don't follow the law will suddenly follow the law on being allowed to carry defensive weapons??

[GingerCat]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

 

Is it ?
So a sword , machete , spiky club is perfectly acceptable as long as you only swing it in your own home ? 

The offence is to possess an offensive weapon in a public place. Your house is not a public place.  So yes, a rack of swords, bats with nails driven through them, huge array of daggers etc etc etc etc if in your house are not offensive weapons in a public place. 

It's written down for you and a Google search will bring up the necessary pages,  have a look. 

 

Using one may bring into play other laws and what is reasonable in the circumstances but in your own home it would be harsh to convict if you could justify what you did.

Edited February 7, 2020 by GingerCat

[GingerCat]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

 

You've made the logical leap that criminals who otherwise don't follow the law will suddenly follow the law on being allowed to carry defensive weapons??

I'm under no illusion of what criminals do. All defensive weapons can be used offensively,  they are just weapons.

What I would be concerned about is the law abiding citizen losing their temper in some road rage or neighbour dispute and instead of walking away they reach for their compact 9mm or whatever it is and kills someone. I'm concerned as the majority of robberies don't involve weapons as those that do them know they get searched regularly and would get nicked, that would stop and they would all carry, robberies would be more violent. People would get hurt.

I'm concerned that people with  otherwise no access to weapons or need to have them would all start carrying them as "they need to" and lots more people would be injured as a result of it. I'd be concerned as a lot of people scare easily and innocent people would be killed/injured due to this. 

I really don't think our society needs to legalise offensive weapons. The law as it is is pretty clear.  crime is rising as there's lots less cops and cultural norms are changing. What's left of the cops are doing the work of social workers and the ambulance service as there's lots less of them too. Prisons are expensive so people don't get sent there. The probation service has sunk. Rehab is non existent. Drugs are cheaper and stronger then they have ever been and there's no lack of availability. My experience is 90% of all crime is due to drugs. Normally getting the funds to buy them or protecting their share of the market. A fair part of what's left is domestic violence. 

More weapons won't help and neither will it protect you on the incredibly rare  off chance of being in a terrorist attack. 

[Rob85]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Im sorry , but I dont think that is what was meant.
At the moment a member of the public cannot arm themselves with ANYTHING for the purposes of self defence, even in their own home.
No one is talking about relaxing the firearms laws to the point of open/concealed carry, however as you are probably aware , NI has a completely different outlook on this.

You are thinking along the lines of the police being 'outgunned' I believe, and the not so popular end result of all police being armed ?
Again, we are talking a million miles away from the 2nd amendment here.

IF it ever came down to members of the public carrying firearms for self defence, the vetting procedure would have to be extreme.
But think more along the lines of a Qbaton or a knife for members of the public who APPLIED for the right to carry, and were granted after a possible interview and training ?

The fact is , there are many people who today carry such weapons anyway, and while some are for outright criminal intentions , others are making themselves criminals. because they dont feel safe, and by that Im NOT referring to drug dealers defending their patch.

The law in this country had a little shake up after Tony Martin, where people realised just how much they were not allowed to defend themselves.
It needs another one now , with the tide of street crime rising expotentially.

Could you clarify what you mean as regards NI? if you are referring to having a firearm for the purposes of self defence you cannot just request this on your licence. These are only given out when there is a confirmed threat against your life from usually terrorists. The rules with them also limit you to 25 rounds of ammunition 

[udderlyoffroad]

6 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

More weapons won't help and neither will it protect you on the incredibly rare  off chance of being in a terrorist attack.

Sorry but there are plenty of countries where the law on carrying defensive weapons is far more relaxed than the UK, and they are not the violent, lawless holes you think they are.  In fact I suggest you have a look at....any other European democracy for a start.

By the way, I'm not talking about concealed carry hand guns, either.

 

7 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

What I would be concerned about is the law abiding citizen losing their temper in some road rage or neighbour dispute and instead of walking away they reach for their compact 9mm or whatever it is and kills someone. I'm concerned as the majority of robberies don't involve weapons as those that do them know they get searched regularly and would get nicked, that would stop and they would all carry, robberies would be more violent. People would get hurt.

Eh?  The first part of that conflicts directly with the latter part.  You've swung straight back to criminals gonna crim, but within the law?

Allow me to play out my own scenario:

Police Officer "Are you carrying anything you shouldn't madam?"

Lady "Yes, a pepper spray for personal protection, here's my address to enable you to look up when I last attended the mandatory self-defence refresher course on its use"

Contrast with

Police Officer "Are you carrying anything you shouldn't

Toe-rag "A knife for personal protection, innit"

Police Officer "You're nicked sunshine"

[GingerCat]

6 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Sorry but there are plenty of countries where the law on carrying defensive weapons is far more relaxed than the UK, and they are not the violent, lawless holes you think they are.  In fact I suggest you have a look at....any other European democracy for a start.

By the way, I'm not talking about concealed carry hand guns, either.

 

Eh?  The first part of that conflicts directly with the latter part.  You've swung straight back to criminals gonna crim, but within the law?

Allow me to play out my own scenario:

Police Officer "Are you carrying anything you shouldn't madam?"

Lady "Yes, a pepper spray for personal protection, here's my address to enable you to look up when I last attended the mandatory self-defence refresher course on its use"

Contrast with

Police Officer "Are you carrying anything you shouldn't

Toe-rag "A knife for personal protection, innit"

Police Officer "You're nicked sunshine"

There are lots of places that allow carrying weapons but culturally they are not the same as the UK, we are more similar to the US in the regard. I don't want to get even more like them. Paris is hardly the epicentre of the land crime forgot and plenty of weapons used and carried there legally too. Germany, Spain and Holland aren't much different. 

As for the second part, your not quite getting what I'm saying, deliberately so I feel but if I'm not clear then let me attempt to explain it further -  More people carrying weapons is going to lead to more people using them. Criminals will use them more as they can without fear after all it's legal and one less thing to worry about.  Law abiding people will use them also, probably when they dont need to but because they have it to hand. more people will get hurt. Needlessly. 

[udderlyoffroad]

9 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Paris is hardly the epicentre of the land crime forgot and plenty of weapons used and carried there legally too. Germany, Spain and Holland aren't much different. 

I think it's a mistake to look at any capital and extrapolate it to the rest of a country.  Not all of the UK is like London.  Have you actually been to any of those countries recently?

 

11 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Criminals will use them more as they can without fear after all it's legal and one less thing to worry about

Eh?  A criminal record will be an automatic bar to even possessing them, and possession of same will lead to a mandatory prison sentence.  Much the same as with firearms currently.

It's not that I'm not getting it, I'm just challenging the conclusion you've come to. 

You seem to be envisaging some kind of dystopian free-for-all, and I'm envisaging a mandatory training scheme and licencing.

Look, I don't want to live in a society where a significant proportion of the population feels it necessary to carry something for protection.  But when my foreign-born partner laughed when I told her she really couldn't have a pepper spray in her handbag because it counts as a firearm in the UK, and it would affect her chances of getting a shotgun certificate...I began to realise that we have some very confused priorities in this country.

[Scully]

6 hours ago, GingerCat said:

The problem is allowing the carrying of weapons for self defence would literally change society as well know it in seconds. There's plenty of young men who have never been in trouble with police that are gang members and involved in serious criminality. They would all be packing. Shootings would be rife. Muggings would all be carried out with pepper spray or guns. 

Policing would change overnight also.  No longer could you approach one as you do, once inside the 21 foot draw distance he/she would be making decisions they don't have to currently.  We would resemble the states very very quickly.  A few people who have never had any trouble but could carry might feel a bit better but the majority would be worse off by a long way. Not something I'd like. 

I’m not ignoring you, I feel this topic needs addressing at length and will get back to it when I have a bit more time. There are several topics I need to get back to from weeks ago, but have to limit my time on PW as I’m pursuing a deadline.